cosmic joke

[eknath]

you wrote: mind says, If there isn't an 'I' in control, then who or what IS in control?
Is there a 'thing', a separate self, an object, a person that is actively doing it?

answer: NO, in the sense that i cannot find any evidence of a self when looking

i have a question for you about mental and emotional states:
yesterday was all bliss and easy and flowing, looking seemed easy, but today was a perfect illustration of the control issue, things went completely 'out of control' and were labeled 'wrong' (it should not be like this) and thinking went all crazy and spiralled out of control (things/people/events should be different or i should be able to handle this nonsense or see tru the illusion etc) and this resulted in a bad mood and fueled a storm of emotions, it was getting increasingly worse, massive resistance, frustration, anger, fear, big drama, shame, guilt etc. '

when heavy dark sad painful emotions and crazy thoughts like are happening and an overwhelming spiral of negativity appears to take over, whats your advice Xain? how to put this ro good use in this process?

[eknath]

another question bubbles up: if there is no one home and nothing/nobody in control and no 'agent', then suffering or expectations or looking or seeing tru the illusion just happen right? this very process and the efforts exorted to get it just happen and the idea that me is doing anything to free itself from the illusion of its own existence is a joke right?

there is a perceived problem and the crazy contorsions to get out of the perceived problem

underlying this process there is still the hidden assumption that seeing tru the illusion will somehow alleviate the suffering, and this idea is reinforced by all the reports and stories about a shift (aha erlebnis) and the subsequent changes in experience, but none of this really makes sense right now

there is only what is and the comments about it, and these comments are also what is

i feel stuck and unable to move and dysfunctional, the zest and the interest in freeing myself appears futile, that is how it is, and its just that, feeling stuck, looking directly and seeing that thoughts are just thoughts happens or not

feel like i am watching a bad movie, i want my money back haha

[Xain]

it is not seen, only an elusive sense of subjectivity, ungraspable, and so the idea that I is just a thought makes sense mentally

This investigation is actually very simple. Is a chooser findable using the senses?
I ask, because the belief appearing is that there is a separate person, a separate self that is responsible for choosing. If this were the case, then we should be able to find one, shouldn't we?
Can you find anything other than thoughts? One of those thoughts being simply 'I'?

you also asked what makes this body 'mine', what owns it, and who or what is in control of the mind, same questions basically, it is only inner mental chatting or thoughts that come up with answers or rather comments because the mind has no real definitive answers only ideas

Ok good.
We can say that 'there is a body' - If we say 'this body is mine' then we should be able to find the owner, the 'me' that the body belongs to - Can you find any owner other than just thoughts appearing about one'?

when heavy dark sad painful emotions and crazy thoughts like are happening and an overwhelming spiral of negativity appears to take over, whats your advice Xain? how to put this ro good use in this process?

Bear with me, and we will get onto this subject next.

if there is no one home and nothing/nobody in control and no 'agent', then suffering or expectations or looking or seeing tru the illusion just happen right? this very process and the efforts exorted to get it just happen and the idea that me is doing anything to free itself from the illusion of its own existence is a joke right?

This is something you will have to work out for yourself.
As mentioned right at the start, I am a guide - I am not going to tell you what is right and what is wrong - Only get you to look.
I commend you, though, as this is a natural question to ask in the guiding process and shows you have a genuine interest in this.
Let's look at the statement 'I am going to see through the illusion'.
What 'I' is going to do that? Again, we can go to all of the senses to try to locate this 'I', or we can realise that the 'I' is only in thought. What do you find?

Perhaps consider also, the idea that there is no 'you' freeing itself from the illusion could be a joke also.
Something is here. Something is clearly reading this text. That is 100% obviously true.
All we do at this stage is to try to find a separate 'thing' that is responsible.

underlying this process there is still the hidden assumption that seeing tru the illusion will somehow alleviate the suffering, and this idea is reinforced by all the reports and stories about a shift (aha erlebnis) and the subsequent changes in experience, but none of this really makes sense right now

Bear with me - We will go onto thoughts and suffering next.

feel like i am watching a bad movie, i want my money back haha

My only payment for the service is the enjoyment I get from doing it :-)

You are doing very well. Just keep things very simple at this stage. Things will fall into place.

Xain ♥

[eknath]

i will bear with you, oh guide, and follow the instructions as they come as i trust this process and your guidance

there was some mental confusion because the unmistakable 'something that is here and reading this' as you say cannot be a 'separate thing' or 'me entity' according to my past hindu and buddhist conditioning and self-inquiring experiments, rather it has the quality of living space, presence/absence or being more than that of a personal story, and the perceiving itself can hardly be an object of perception, but trying to grasp and identify with a more subtle aliveness is also separating and 'selfing' etc and i will leave it here as this is drifting off in conceptual understanding

going back to simple sensory investigation i can find no thing, no separate self, no chooser, no I other than in or as thought

[Xain]

going back to simple sensory investigation i can find no thing, no separate self, no chooser, no I other than in or as thought

Good. This is all that is needed.
Notice . . . when you do NOT keep things simple, it involves much thought.
Would I be right in saying that the only difference between 'simple' and 'complicated' would be the amount of thinking involved?

but trying to grasp and identify with a more subtle aliveness is also separating and 'selfing' etc and i will leave it here as this is drifting off in conceptual understanding

Yes. Excellent. This is great observation.
As soon as the mind tries to identify 'what you are', it has to form it as a 'thing' - Something that can be named or labelled - Conceptual understanding as you rightly say.

Anyway, let's move to 'thoughts' right now.

The standard view is that 'I think' - I am a separate self, a 'person' who performs the act of thinking.
Beliefs and thoughts are the same. A belief is simply a thought appearing that is held to be true or accurate.
Also, the standard view is that the thoughts belong to the person - 'These are my thoughts', 'I had an idea yesterday . . .' etc

So investigate this.
Can you find an 'I' that generates the thoughts?
'I think' - What is 'I'? What is the one that thinks?
Again, go to the experience of this moment - Does the thinker of the thought appear in experience? Can this one be found? Or could it be that the 'I' that thinks, is also a thought?

Is there an 'I' that controls thoughts?
Surely if thoughts could be controlled, then 'you' could choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?

Is there an 'I' that has ownership of thoughts?
What do the thoughts belong to? What owns them?

Using thinking, do you think you'll ever find anything OTHER than thoughts?
I mean, we are looking for a REAL 'I' right now aren't we?

Xain ♥

[eknath]

YES, as you say the only difference between simple and complicated is the amount of thinking and linking stories together, this became clear the last days, when 'i' get pulled in by the magnetic force of drama everything becomes not only complicated but also violent, and giving stories attention increases their strength, just as the effect of wind on a fire, one moment there are thoughts about wanting to kill people and the next moment, when relaxed and focused on more physical things like breathing and sounds, 'no harm' feelings are welling up

[eknath]

moving to thoughts: no real I to be found except in or as thought

ownership of thought is another thought

different layers of thought appearing, some louder or more vocal and more on foreground appearing to be more steerable, othes mor subtle and more imaged

language itself appears to be very tricky and constantly reinforcing the I notion

trying to think thoughts without sense of me or I, or without language, impossible

using thinking, thought only being found, nothing real in the sense of not just a thought

very interesting inquiry will continue to investigate

[eknath]

i have been waking with dream images still vivid and consciously remembered, once realised its a dream, the dream problem and drama is gone, it is no longer real

[Xain]

language itself appears to be very tricky and constantly reinforcing the I notion

It does.

We begin this investigation with the standard assumption that there is a person 'there' who is a guide, who will be guiding 'me' a person 'here'.
This is from thought.

Is there a person, a separate self here right now that needs guiding?
Can you find one?
Is there even a 'you' that is doing the searching?!

Is there a 'you' that chose to begin this conversation? Or just a thought of one?

trying to think thoughts without sense of me or I, or without language, impossible

Yes. Language and thoughts are the same. They are tied together.
In order to deal with the world, we conceptualise it. This is so we can understand the world and communicate about it. Through thought and language we perceive the world as lots and lots of individual separate objects, and since we do this, 'I', what I truly am must be one of these separate objects.
Is this true? Or just what thought says?

YES, as you say the only difference between simple and complicated is the amount of thinking and linking stories together

So could it be that the entire issue is entirely generated and created by thought itself?

Without thought, is there a separate 'you' here right now?

Xain ♥

[eknath]

wow! we are shifting gears here, all of it is just thoughts i have to admit, thoughts appear that protest and doubt this, there still is the sense of me, another thought, and the thought 'i am failing to see this', another thought, the heart is aching, and then so what? another thought: if it is all just thought then what?' what's next?

my cat is purring

[Xain]

there still is the sense of me

You say this is a thought, yes?
The 'sense of you' is a thought - Yes?

But we are looking for a 'real' you - One that can be found - One that is not a thought.
Have you found one yet?
Is there a 'you' looking for one?

If it is all just thought then what?' what's next?

Another thought?

What is expected to happen and who or what is it expected to happen to?

'I' is always a thought. Has this been realised yet?
What more is needed? And who or what needs it?

Xain ♥

[eknath]

what do you mean by 'realized', how does it manifest, the very word creates an expectation, 'i should realize that there is no me and see tru the illusion' and this should be a different experience from what i have now, i don't see it and i don't know what to say that makes sense and does not feel laughable, every attempt to answer is just more of the same, the mental merry-go-round, in a deep sense there are no questions, just this wonder and amazement and dance of crazy thoughts, something that is not real and cannot be found is trying to get and gain something knowing that nothing can be gotten or gained, i am laughing now, what a ride!

what more is expected/needed and for whom? always the same drive or movement is noticed, a desire for a changed or shifted experience that feels better or other than what is now, regardless if there is a me or not

i am now experiencing body more, pressure in the plexus and throat, boundaries between sensations emotions and thoughts are not so clear, all one big puffy cloud, drama and liking is there but more superficial and hollow

[eknath]

my wife just came in the room where i was sitting, i was listening to a LU video that i was running loudly tru the loudspeakers, she brurst into laughter and said: you are crazy! still seeking for something that does not exist?
i burst into laughter as well, the funny thing being she is not into this search or questioning at all

looks like life loves to play games

[Xain]

Let's just re-cap for a moment.
We did some experiments / tests about the senses, the body, choosing and control and thoughts.
What did you find out?
Was there any resuly in common with all the tests we did?

i am laughing now, what a ride!

Great! Life is to be laughed at. :-)

What more is expected/needed and for whom?

Is this a question for me?
As a guide, I require you to look and work out the answer for yourself.
Can a person or seperate self be located here right now that expects or needs something?
Can one be found using the senses? Can you describe it?
Or is 'I expect' and 'I need' just thoughts appearing?

i am now experiencing body more, pressure in the plexus and throat

I know what you mean.
We have examined the senses already.
Is there a seperate 'I' that experiences the body? Or is there just 'experience'?

you are crazy! still seeking for something that does not exist?

If all 'I' ever was, was just a thought - Then it does not exist.
Isn't this a fair statement?

Xain ♥

[eknath]

yes its a fair statement to say that i is just a thought and therefore not rea, real in the sense of a separate and solid entity that can be seen and found

to recap, senses thoughts emotions and whatever arises, just experience is the correct statement, nothing is separate our outside experience