Looking for a guide

[bobinmaui]

Thanks for letting me know about the illness. I've found physical illness actually can be ideal conditions to look at direct experience of the body, as the sensations are so intense, and also less thought analysis often comes up to confuse the issue. But no problem if you need to take a break too.

Thanks, I'm feeling better today. While I had the stomach pain, I found looking to be difficult, with a lot of interference of thought. However, I woke up in the middle of the night and began reading some of "Gateless Gatecrashers" (I hope that's OK) and came across a dialogue, I think with Jamie, and reading it, everything became quite clear about the lack of self and the lack of choice. Not so today. I think I've gone back to believing thoughts.

break that down further for me. What about the sensory perceptions themselves are 'other'?

I have the thought labeling 'others', but the thought itself is not other. And there is visual sensation of the other, which is also not other. Same with hearing, touching. Also, there is the memory of the person, which itself is also not 'other'.

500 years ago people believed thoughts came from the liver. :)

Do thoughts have a location?

Only the liver, as far as I can tell.

See how many hundreds of actions the body does every day without a single thought commentating on them at all. Yet suddenly thought is needed to raise the arm?

No.

Decide to raise an arm. At what exact point did movement of the arm start? Was there a very tense and deliberate thought saying "I am going to move this arm... now?' Was there a tiny feeling of relief that the arm moved when "told" to move? Was there a feeling of ownership of the movement, and when does that appear? Beforehand? Halfway through? Afterwards?

I can't pinpoint when the arm began to move, at the beginning or middle of the thought. The thought was not tense or deliberate and there was no feeling of relief when it moved, and no feeling of ownership. There was just movement, then the thought 'I moved my arm,' a thought of ownership, but not a feeling.

Hold your hand a few inches above your leg. Say to yourself, "I'm going to tap my leg sometime in the next 30 seconds." Watch to see what happens. Also observe whether or not thinking "Tap now!" has any effect. Notice exactly what happens when the hand does tap the leg (or if it doesn't).

There is no predicting when the hand will tap the leg. When I think the thought 'tap now', the tapping follows right away. Still, even though it seems that one causes the other, both the thought and the tapping appear out of nowhere, and the tapping may or may not follow the command No need for a self for this to occur.

Can you see a self making the body leave the bed?
Where does the "decision", the "command" to get up comes from? What makes the body get up, is there a you that commands the body?
When lying there, shout 'GET UP' internally as loudly as you can.
Does that affect the outcome?

The body just gets up. In direct experience, I can find no command or decision coming from anywhere. Thought wants to tell me that 'I' issue the command, but it is not so, even shouting 'GET UP' is clearly preceding the movement, but not causing it, since the body may or may not arise following the command. Ah, this is getting clearer.

Can you choose the content of the next thought? Can you choose willingly the next thought that will arise? If not, then the thought 'raise the arm' wasn't chosen or controlled either. So where does that leave choice and control?

No problem. We can keep playing with this for as long as needed. :)

OK, but I can say, "OK, your next thought will be 'Get up'", and the thought 'get up' will arise. I can agree that I can't always control what thought will appear, but sometimes I can. Oh, this is tricky. Just like the body moving or not moving on the command to get up, so the thought 'get up' may or may not follow the command to think it.

If I ask are there keys in your pocket and you say no, do thoughts then arise saying 'ah, but the belief that keys were in my pocket is very tenacious'? ;)

What is meant here by 'tenacious'? Do you mean 'thoughts about self, me i mine continue to arise? Check there's not an expectation for these thoughts to stop. Why would they?

I don't expect them to stop. Thoughts about Santa don't stop either, but I don't keep living as if they are true.

Or do you mean these thoughts referring to self are in some way 'special' or 'different' thoughts to ones like 'ooh look at that sunset' or 'paddleboarding looks fun'?

If only I could experience the self thought as 'ooh look at that self', or 'Bobbing looks fun'.

Nothing exists outside the present moment.

This is very clear: No future, no past, memories and plans arising only now.

[Hannah B-T]

I think I've gone back to believing thoughts.

What is this I that can believe thoughts, that's not also a thought? Look for that.

I have the thought labeling 'others', but the thought itself is not other. And there is visual sensation of the other, which is also not other. Same with hearing, touching. Also, there is the memory of the person, which itself is also not 'other'.

yep. No other (objects) so where does that leave the self (subject), the other side of that idea?

Only the liver, as far as I can tell.

I'm assuming your joking here (checking as believe me, thoughts can come out with some doosies of ideas!)

then the thought 'I moved my arm,' a thought of ownership, but not a feeling.

notice how often the I thoughts claim ownership of stuff, body movements especially, that work just fine without any commentary whatsover...

Still, even though it seems that one causes the other, both the thought and the tapping appear out of nowhere, and the tapping may or may not follow the command No need for a self for this to occur.

Yes! and then...

OK, but I can say, "OK, your next thought will be 'Get up'", and the thought 'get up' will arise. I can agree that I can't always control what thought will appear, but sometimes I can.

Really? Sometimes i can control what thought will appear.
What is this 'I' that is controlling the thought content? Look for that again.
What defines what thought content can be controlled and what can't?

'ok,your next thought will be get up' -that's not a 'command' in direct experience, that's a THOUGHT. thought A let's call it. And would that thought have arisen if i hadn't asked you to do the exercise?
'get up' well, what a shocker for that thought to follow the last one ;) Thought B.

a....b....c....d...
'trains of thought'- is a nice phrase...one follows the other...until they don't...
Check this against the current experience. Do you find anything different?

Where in all that is the self controlling or creating the thought or content of the thought, and can you even describe the process of thoughts arising? Or even that thought A is in any way connected with thought b. And if the next thought says it is, isn't that just thought C?

Thoughts about Santa don't stop either, but I don't keep living as if they are true.

What about watching a movie? Don't you ever get lost into the movie? Is that a problem?
How is 'living as if it is true' a problem, when it's clear it's not true?

If only I could experience the self thought as 'ooh look at that self', or 'Bobbing looks fun'.

Is there actually an 'I' experiencing thoughts?
An observer/witness of some sort?
Wouldn't 'ooh look at that self' just be another thought?
Do you need to keep saying 'oh look how there are no unicorns in this room?' Just in case one pops up if you don't?

You didn''t directly answer my question there- are the self referencing thoughts in some way special or different to other thoughts? Are they not empty as we discussed before?
If the gut response is 'yes they are different', look in direct experience what the difference is and let me know.

This is very clear: No future, no past, memories and plans arising only now.

So where is the only place seeing no self can occur?
Where does this leave all these 'i got it then, but have lost it now' thoughts?

[bobinmaui]

What is this I that can believe thoughts, that's not also a thought? Look for that.

Yes, it is a thought that thinks it believes thoughts.

yep. No other (objects) so where does that leave the self (subject), the other side of that idea?

The subject, too, is a thought with a label.

I'm assuming your joking here (checking as believe me, thoughts can come out with some doosies of ideas!)

Yes, just joking. There is some phantom 'I' who is taking itself too seriously.

Yes! and then...

And the command itself is just a thought.

notice how often the I thoughts claim ownership of stuff, body movements especially, that work just fine without any commentary whatsover...

Yes.

Really? Sometimes i can control what thought will appear.
What is this 'I' that is controlling the thought content? Look for that again.
What defines what thought content can be controlled and what can't?

Well, I can't find the 'I' that controls what thought will appear, so it is not under 'my' control after all. Clearly none of it can be controlled.

'ok,your next thought will be get up' -that's not a 'command' in direct experience, that's a THOUGHT. thought A let's call it. And would that thought have arisen if i hadn't asked you to do the exercise?
'get up' well, what a shocker for that thought to follow the last one ;) Thought B.

OK, not a command but a thought. And most likely it would not have arisen had you not asked me to do the exercise.

a....b....c....d...
'trains of thought'- is a nice phrase...one follows the other...until they don't...
Check this against the current experience. Do you find anything different?

Yes, one thought triggers another until they don't. Clear. No self to make it happen

Where in all that is the self controlling or creating the thought or content of the thought, and can you even describe the process of thoughts arising? Or even that thought A is in any way connected with thought b. And if the next thought says it is, isn't that just thought C?

Yes, I can find no self controlling or creating the thought, and I have no idea how thoughts arise. At first, it seems that thought A results in thought B, but yes, that seeming is just another thought.

What about watching a movie? Don't you ever get lost into the movie? Is that a problem?
How is 'living as if it is true' a problem, when it's clear it's not true?

Getting lost in a movie is not a problem. When living as if it is true, there is no longer clarity that it is not true.

Is there actually an 'I' experiencing thoughts?
An observer/witness of some sort?
Wouldn't 'ooh look at that self' just be another thought?
Do you need to keep saying 'oh look how there are no unicorns in this room?' Just in case one pops up if you don't?

No 'I' actually experiencing thoughts. Just witnessing without a witness. Just another thought. Yep, no unicorns.

You didn''t directly answer my question there- are the self referencing thoughts in some way special or different to other thoughts? Are they not empty as we discussed before?
If the gut response is 'yes they are different', look in direct experience what the difference is and let me know.

No, self referencing thoughts are no different from other thoughts. Just as empty.

So where is the only place seeing no self can occur?
Where does this leave all these 'i got it then, but have lost it now' thoughts?

Now is the only time seeing no self can occur. Got it but lost it thoughts are just empty thoughts. There is only this.

[Hannah B-T]

So very straightforward and confident responses there, lovely to read.

Anything else need addressing at this point? Or is it just clear there is no separate self?

How about responding at this point to the standard set of questions we use here, which I then show to the other guides, and seeing what that brings up?

[bobinmaui]

Anything else need addressing at this point? Or is it just clear there is no separate self?

It is clear there is no separate self, but even after addressing expectations, I guess I was expecting something to be different. Some shift in perception, something. But nothing is different in any way.

How about responding at this point to the standard set of questions we use here, which I then show to the other guides, and seeing what that brings up?

OK

[bobinmaui]

Hi Hannah,
Just to let you know, we are leaving for California tomorrow, so I may not be able to post again until Tuesday. Thank you for your guidance. Where from here, who knows?

[Hannah B-T]

It is clear there is no separate self, but even after addressing expectations, I guess I was expecting something to be different. Some shift in perception, something. But nothing is different in any way.

Bummer heh? Does life really ever correspond to the thoughts/ideas/expectation about it?
What an anti-climax. I mean where are the choirs of angels announcing Bob's awakening, the unending bliss, the permanent beauty and oneness perception. Talk about being sold a lemon...

Another way of exploring what's next is to ask 'is there still seeking going on?'
If so, what for? What can be found that isn't this, right now- whatever that looks like.

Anyway, let's not jump ahead. Take a look at these and give me responses, as always from direct experience as far as possible. No need for analysis.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there
ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from
your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How
does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

[bobinmaui]

Bummer heh? Does life really ever correspond to the thoughts/ideas/expectation about it?
What an anti-climax. I mean where are the choirs of angels announcing Bob's awakening, the unending bliss, the permanent beauty and oneness perception. Talk about being sold a lemon...

Well, that's a little over the top as far as my expectations go. I have understood for years that there is no separate self. I just figured that with further clarification or seeing it more clearly, that the seeking would stop, that the separate self would be seen through. This has not happened. But perhaps that's it? And I know it makes no sense to keep seeking, but the mind just keeps it up, for what I don't know.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there
ever?

I cannot find a separate self anywhere except as an idea, a concept.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from
your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The separate self illusion apparently is a product of language, of our capacity to represent the real world with symbols. The ideas of self and other arise out of that representation and the belief in this self is reinforced by parents and others, through identification with the body, sensations, memories and thoughts. It is a belief from which a multitude of other beliefs arise.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.

I actually feel pretty depressed and disgusted with this entire pursuit, which has been going on for so many years. The only difference from when we started is that I now feel quite hopeless that I will ever find peace and contentment.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

I have looked a lot, but nothing has pushed me over. Nothing is different.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How
does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

Decisions, intention, free will, choice and control arise as thoughts in the mind, which takes credit for actions after they have occurred. How can I be responsible for anything if there is no 'I'. I get up and get a snack, and my mind tells me I chose to do it.

6) Anything to add?

No

[Hannah B-T]

I actually feel pretty depressed and disgusted with this entire pursuit, which has been going on for so many years. The only difference from when we started is that I now feel quite hopeless that I will ever find peace and contentment.

Wowsers, let's take a breath and take a look again at emotion in d.e.

(The rest of your responses were clear to me by the way, but this seems to be demanding some immediate looking!)

What is this experience of depression and disgust, hopelessness- give me the raw, unadulterated sensations, rather than the story about them. Be fearless and look straight at what is actually going on here when this stuff is coming up.

This is the story about them-
'this entire pursuit has been going on so many years' 'I feel hopeless that I will ever find peace and contentment'.
Is this true? Is peace and contentment the goal here from the beginning?

We're you not 100% honest with me at the start when you looked through the list of expectations? It's ok if not, but it's crunchtime here.

How does that story above of past and future fit with when you looked if anything existed outside the present moment?

Another way of exploring what's next is to ask 'is there still seeking going on?'
If so, what for? What can be found that isn't this, right now- whatever that looks like.

Please take a look and give me a response to this.

Remember what we talked about with the seeking idea, about it as a movement to get away from unpleasant or misinterpreted sensations that are arising, whilst imagination produces some future idea, like this one of 'peace and contentment'...

Take a look at this vid and let me know the response:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUR_CqH7kO8

x

[bobinmaui]

What is this experience of depression and disgust, hopelessness- give me the raw, unadulterated sensations, rather than the story about them. Be fearless and look straight at what is actually going on here when this stuff is coming up.

OK, shoulders rounded, shallow breathing, tightness in chest, pursed lips, and many thoughts trying to make sense of it. Also, a strong desire to escape the feeling.

This is the story about them-
'this entire pursuit has been going on so many years' 'I feel hopeless that I will ever find peace and contentment'.
Is this true? Is peace and contentment the goal here from the beginning?

It appears that peace and contentment were unrecognized expectations. And another is that this would be the end of seeking. And the thought arises, if I have no expectations, then why would I be doing this? And then that cluster of thoughts and sensations I described above arise again.

We're you not 100% honest with me at the start when you looked through the list of expectations? It's ok if not, but it's crunchtime here.

I went back to read through your questions and my responses and came to a comment about getting away from unpleasant sensations: 'I put it to you that what you are left labelling 'seeking' is simply the desire to get away from these unpleasant sensations, as they arise. And that the end of seeking is not to be found in thoughts expecting them not to, or trying to get away from them (which isn't possible), but simply seeing them for what they are, as they arise.'
Reading this, I found myself leaving the computer and getting a snack, then having the thought that I am terrified that the end to all the seeking will be nothing, more hollowness in the chest, still wanting to get away from it all, endless seeking. I tell myself it is hard to simply sit and be with the sensation, yet when I look, it doesn't really seem so. It seems that what I really want to escape is not the sensation so much as the horrifying story I've attached to it.

How does that story above of past and future fit with when you looked if anything existed outside the present moment?

Yes, I'm still telling stories of a past and projections into a future, even though when I look I see there is only this that is real.

Another way of exploring what's next is to ask 'is there still seeking going on?'
If so, what for? What can be found that isn't this, right now- whatever that looks like.

Yes, in my mind there is still the thought that there must be something more, that this, just as it is, can't be it. But this is simply thought. Direct experience says yes, this is it and I can't find anything else. It seems idiotic, but I keep wanting to believe my mind stories of something more, something better, even though I can see they are not true.

Remember what we talked about with the seeking idea, about it as a movement to get away from unpleasant or misinterpreted sensations that are arising, whilst imagination produces some future idea, like this one of 'peace and contentment'...

Take a look at this vid and let me know the response:

It is a brilliant pointing out of just what I have been doing and not doing. Even though I have a story going of being really in touch with my feelings, I see now that there are many sensation/story combinations that I am regularly seeking to avoid, including getting angry at my wife in order to avoid experiencing the feelings aroused in me by her comments. And eating, and drinking, and carrying along the story that if only I become realized these feelings won't trouble me any more. Wow! This has been really helpful. Thanks for your persistence. I'll watch Rupert's video a few more times as well, but it is all getting much clearer now.

[Hannah B-T]

Whatever, and I mean whatever is coming up IS the fuel for the fire of more looking. Burn baby burn ;)

OK, shoulders rounded, shallow breathing, tightness in chest, pursed lips, and many thoughts trying to make sense of it. Also, a strong desire to escape the feeling.

Is it possible to escape the feeling if that's what's going?
Where and what is this you that could escape?

This pattern of sensations looks to me like what I would describe as fear. Fear of what?

It appears that peace and contentment were unrecognized expectations

Thank you for the honesty here. It's beautiful.
All the stories we were sold about that hey? Is it any wonder they got embedded as expectations?

And another is that this would be the end of seeking.

Here straight after this process what kept coming up was 'it's all gotta go baby!'. Not just mispercptions and assumptions about self, but life, everything.
So what appears to be left as appearing to be 'real' 'true'?
Time, space, others, the material world, emotions, sensations...
It's the end of needing to ask 'what am I?'.
Not the end of life!

if I have no expectations, then why would I be doing this?

This dialogue is often as much about seeing through expectations as it is about seeing through the illusion of self. Because what are these expectations if not imaginings about this illusory self and what it has done, will do and achieve?

then having the thought that I am terrified that the end to all the seeking will be nothing, more hollowness in the chest, still wanting to get away from it all, endless seeking.

Is it possible that the terror is fear of there no longer being a seeker?
Was there ever a 'seeker'? Just like a hearer, see-er and thinker?
Look for that.

Yes, I'm still telling stories of a past and projections into a future, even though when I look I see there is only this that is real.

That's what thoughts do. No biggie. The crucial bit is that story can be seen through. And it is being.

Even though I have a story going of being really in touch with my feelings, I see now that there are many sensation/story combinations that I am regularly seeking to avoid, including getting angry at my wife in order to avoid experiencing the feelings aroused in me by her comments. And eating, and drinking, and carrying along the story that if only I become realized these feelings won't trouble me any more.

When these story sensation combinations are arising, ask 'is there anything separate experiencing these sensations/stories? Or is there just this, playing itself out?' And take a look.

Let me know how that goes.

[bobinmaui]

Whatever, and I mean whatever is coming up IS the fuel for the fire of more looking. Burn baby burn ;)

Got it! Yes! I think I'm done.

Is it possible to escape the feeling if that's what's going?
Where and what is this you that could escape?

The mind tries to escape the feeling by projecting a better future, and there is no one to escape even if it were possible.

This pattern of sensations looks to me like what I would describe as fear. Fear of what?

Yes, fear arose that the end of seeking would amount to nothing, and actually it has but not in a dreadful way as I imagined.

All the stories we were sold about that hey? Is it any wonder they got embedded as expectations?

Yes, even by the most well-meaning of teachers, until now. What great work you are doing.

Here straight after this process what kept coming up was 'it's all gotta go baby!'. Not just mispercptions and assumptions about self, but life, everything.
So what appears to be left as appearing to be 'real' 'true'?
Time, space, others, the material world, emotions, sensations...
It's the end of needing to ask 'what am I?'.
Not the end of life!

Yes, to begin to recognize the many stories in all their forms as just stories, including and especially the story of ''me'. It is a relief.

This dialogue is often as much about seeing through expectations as it is about seeing through the illusion of self. Because what are these expectations if not imaginings about this illusory self and what it has done, will do and achieve?

And oh, the stories and expectations of enlightenment.

Is it possible that the terror is fear of there no longer being a seeker?
Was there ever a 'seeker'? Just like a hearer, see-er and thinker?
Look for that.

Yes, that is possible, but it seems more that the fear was that the separate self would never be seen through and 'I' would continue seeking. Now, seeking is just another thought that arises occasionally, and without much oomph. No seeker, no seer, no hearer, no thinker.

That's what thoughts do. No biggie. The crucial bit is that story can be seen through. And it is being.

Yes, it is.

When these story sensation combinations are arising, ask 'is there anything separate experiencing these sensations/stories? Or is there just this, playing itself out?' And take a look.

Let me know how that goes.

Nothing separate, just the arising and falling away of sensations, thoughts, feelings.

[Hannah B-T]

Great-

I've put this thread to the other guides to see if any further questions come up from that.

[Hannah B-T]

A guide asks if you could give another go at a response to question 3 and 4 from the last few days- here they are again:

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

[bobinmaui]

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.

I'm having difficulty responding to this now. Initially it felt freeing. The last few days have been chaotic and right now my mind has been racing, my heart pounding and feeling jittery. When I stop and look, I see there is no me, yet I continue acting as though I am a separate self. It is not seen through like Santa, but there is an ongoing background recognition that there is no separate self.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

I think it was partly reviewing our conversations and partly your response to my statement of depression coupled with the video of Rupert Spira. Am I over? l am not sure of having gone over any edge, though there did seem to be some slight shift in my perception. I am not sure what I need from here.