Hello The Gate! Another dreaming human came :)

[PiotrK]

Hi, To be honest, I am little bit excited by waiting for a guide :)

One of the user of this forum recommended me LU.
At first I wasn't interested to much. I thought, I am on my hatha-yoga path since about 7 years. I met inspiring teacher. I practice alone since few years, doing some meditation, I have been reading many books and texts about different east traditions. I have been listening and watching many hours of speeches and guiding by Mooji, Papaji, Eckhart Tolle, Jeff Foster, Lisa Cairns and many others. This and they all inspired me.
And there is still more and more space in me. I have overcome many of suffering, of course there are some Ups and Downs, but I am kind of happy person… My person is also very lucky.. I discovered that I don't have to be neseccery enlighted - let see what life brings.
So when I've heard about LU, I thought that I don't need revolution now. Let it happens "maybe later". Then I have realized that I always do this - think about a future.
"I want to be a buddha, but in an easy way and in a future" :). So later I felt kind of inner pressure to log here. Actually I have find myself logging here.

I was also little bit skeptical because of internet/anonymous process of this very important "spiritual" event (at least for ego). I am afraid of being stuck in words and in intelectual speculations (I get used to using my body and heart while practicing) I would like to be 100 % honest, but even now I found myself pretending little bit to show myself as a kind of a cool and smart guy.

Sorry if I make some language mistakes, english is not my native.
So.. waiting for Guide :)

Best,
Piotr

[Alexw]

Hi Piotr,

My name is Alex and I would be happy to guide you.

If this is ok with you then please answer these questions:

I discovered that I don't have to be neseccery enlighted - let see what life brings.

Yes, this is a good way at looking at life. What do you expect enlightenment to be?

What do you think will happen once you see through the illusion of the separate self?
Please elaborate.

"I want to be a buddha, but in an easy way and in a future" :)

What is this "I/self" that wants to become a buddha?
Could you please let me know what "I/self" means to you. Is it your body/mind? Is it a feeling..? How is it experienced?


Before we start, I'd like to ask you to read the disclaimer on the home page if you haven't already and agree to some standard ground rules:

1. You agree to post at least once a day, even if it's only "Hi, I'm still here." I will do the same. If either of us will be unable to post daily for any reason, we should let the other know.

2. I will post questions, which prompt your investigation and answers. (I'm here to guide, not to teach.)

3. When you answer/report, please do so with 100% honesty.

4. And when you do answer, please answer from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are not needed and may even hinder progress.

5. Please put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this journey. Really commit to begin looking for this separate self, this "I"; look for what is the experience throughout the day as this looking happens. And if you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it's fine to continue that.

About posting in this forum.

1. When clicking 'Quote' (in a post) or 'Post Reply' at the bottom of the page you get the editor where you can type an answer. You can also preview the answer before it is posted. Experiment as much as needed. Nothing gets posted unless the 'Submit' button is clicked.

2. Please learn to use the 'Quote' facility, it's a very useful tool.

3. Please click the 'subscribe topic' link at the very bottom of the page to ensure you get an email whenever a reply comes in.


Kind regards,
Alex

[PiotrK]

Hi Alex,
Thank You for the answer and guiding offer!
Great.

I agree with disclaimer and rules you posted.

What do you expect enlightenment to be?

There are only blurrred concepts coming. More space, less identifying with my personal life.
Now I am looking into my mind to find some answers, but it's not about that.
And it's not about feelings I feel and It's not about my experiences I experience and it's not about denying them too.
It's about finding me, reality - that's my expectations

What do you think will happen once you see through the illusion of the separate self?

I don't really know, My mind doesn't know…… When it will happen I think my mind will try to put me down or somehow entertain me.

What is this "I/self" that wants to become a buddha?

A person writing those words now wants to be a buddha, same time knows that need to drop, finish himself.
And something observates this, but this is not a Buddha observator…

There are many answers coming, but can't catch anything,.

Trying to play a role somebody answering…

Seriously I am stuck now, all answers are wrong somehow for me and there is something going on with my feelings emotions, perception.. and it's somehow cloudy.

Could you please let me know what "I/self" means to you. Is it your body/mind? Is it a feeling..? How is it experienced?

"I" means for me that it is all the time. I means for me also "to be". I am thinking now "Could "I" stay without be?". Could "I" stop?

"I" is this something, which is not so much reduced as my feelings and body/mind. "I" is open, but as a person I am using feelins, intutions and states to imagine that. Like being in a cellar, seeing sometimes little flashes of light and imagining the world with light.


Greetings.

Piotr

[Alexw]

OK, great. Thank you for your honest answers.

There are only blurrred concepts coming. More space, less identifying with my personal life.
Now I am looking into my mind to find some answers, but it's not about that.
And it's not about feelings I feel and It's not about my experiences I experience and it's not about denying them too.
It's about finding me, reality - that's my expectations

It is good that you don't have any great expectations, they are mostly a hindrance to honestly look and see.
You say that it might be about "finding me"... What if there is no separate "me/I" to be found? What if this "I" is just an illusion? What if there never was a separate "I" and never will be? How does that make you feel?

I don't really know, My mind doesn't know…… When it will happen I think my mind will try to put me down or somehow entertain me.

What is "mind" to you? Is it any more than thoughts? Can thoughts do anything "to you"?
Look at this current moment. Sit down on a chair, take 10min and simply observe. What is here, right now? Please describe this direct experience of sitting on a chair (please report from direct experience only - no long winded thought stories ABOUT the experience, just simply this experience).

[PiotrK]

What if there is no separate "me/I" to be found? What if this "I" is just an illusion? What if there never was a separate "I" and never will be? How does that make you feel?

I feel ok, I mean then it's much more easier then,

it's simplier, nothing to search. If there is no "small i" and "the biggest I" then I don't have to DO anything. I don't need to chase and try to make it.
So now I feel comfortable with this, but still somehow there is knowing/believing that there must be a shift (which will come maybe later, :))

What is "mind" to you? Is it any more than thoughts? Can thoughts do anything "to you"?

I look now and I see that mind is a concept, because to tell about what the mind is I need to make a synthesis of some ideas and thoughts.

There are feelings, then thoughts are trying to interpret them and create another feelings.
Without naming those (if they are feelings or thought and what they do to each other) I don't know what they are, but somehow I am in the game.

Thought can't do anything to Looking. But looking is just looking,

Look at this current moment. Sit down on a chair, take 10min and simply observe. What is here, right now? Please describe this direct experience of sitting on a chair (please report from direct experience only - no long winded thought stories ABOUT the experience, just simply this experience).

There are sensations in the body, tensions and small worries how to change it.

Searching for pleasures, strategizing experience..

trying to control, whatever but to control..
..
I had headache, felt some strongest tensions, had lay down and relax.
Now I am somtehing between relaxed and "uff.. I didn't drop myself"


Greets
P

[Alexw]

it's simplier, nothing to search. If there is no "small i" and "the biggest I" then I don't have to DO anything. I don't need to chase and try to make it.
So now I feel comfortable with this, but still somehow there is knowing/believing that there must be a shift (which will come maybe later, :))

Yes, simpler and nothing to search - very nice.
What is the "biggest I"? Can you find different versions of an "I"?
Try to forget this believe in a shift for now - just focus on this process. Whatever should happen will happen - expectations on something to change will just stand in the way of SEEing.

There are feelings, then thoughts are trying to interpret them and create another feelings.

Yes, right, thoughts label and conceptualise, but are they creating new feelings? Can you experience a thought creating anything? Or is there simply the thought and then another thought arises and maybe a physical sensation... what is "feeling" - how is it experienced? Is it any more than a thought in combination with a physical sensation?

Thought can't do anything to Looking. But looking is just looking

Yes, well seen. It can't change the experience, it only conceptualises - the issue is that most of the time people don't SEE what IS, but believe what thoughts say ABOUT the experience, right?

There are sensations in the body, tensions and small worries how to change it.
Searching for pleasures, strategizing experience..

Try again - this is a story about the time spent sitting on a chair, not direct experience of "sitting on a chair".
What is directly experienced - note what sensations are happening, what do you see, hear, feel. What does thought say. Does it go hand in hand with what is experienced right here, right now?

[PiotrK]

What is the "biggest I"? Can you find different versions of an "I"?

can't find any other versions of "I".
If there is other experiences of "I", then is it only this "I" and only this perception what it is?
just this what Is?
Nothing else?

what is "feeling" - how is it experienced?

I don't know, it's a concept.

Is it any more than a thought in combination with a physical sensation?

yes

Yes, well seen. It can't change the experience, it only conceptualises - the issue is that most of the time people don't SEE what IS, but believe what thoughts say ABOUT the experience, right?

Yes I see that I am taking thinking by experiencing. I think I experience but I think. I don't see my experiencing, I see my thinking.
I am so busy with thinking, that I can only look at thinking and interpreting, but there is no way out, because IT is not about searching, there is nothing to find.

What is directly experienced - note what sensations are happening, what do you see, hear, feel. What does thought say. Does it go hand in hand with what is experienced right here, right now?

Music, body sensations in my back, wind is blowing. A tension in my head.
I am finding an effort naming, labelling what is happening.
Still trying do it again and again. The re is something stressfull, but this is a name for body sensations and thought.
I think I didn't make "my homework" in right way. I know there is no right way.
I will still try.

[Alexw]

Great! You are doing well!

Music, body sensations in my back, wind is blowing. A tension in my head.
I am finding an effort naming, labelling what is happening.
Still trying do it again and again. The re is something stressfull, but this is a name for body sensations and thought.

OK... lets go a step "deeper"... Close your eyes. Listen to sound. Try to find the entity producing the sound - is there one in direct experience or is there only a thought stating that "this sound is from a bird - it is outside etc etc"
Is there an entity hearing/receiving the sound or is there again only a thought stating that "I am hearing a bird"? Can you find an "I" hearing a sound coming from a "sounder" or is there simply sound?

If you have the time try this also for "body sensations in my back"... Keep your eyes closed: Can you experience "body sensations in my back" or is there only a certain sensation (pressure) that thought labels "body sensations in my back"? Can you find an "I" feeling pressure or is there simply pressure? Can you experience the location "back" or is there only a thought stating this is where the sensation is coming from?

IT is not about searching, there is nothing to find.

:-) Nothing new to find, but everything to SEE! Who/what is it that is "searching"? Isn't "I am searching" only a thought proposing that an entity is looking for something to change itself? Can you find this entity anywhere outside of thought?

[PiotrK]

OK... lets go a step "deeper"... Close your eyes. Listen to sound. Try to find the entity producing the sound - is there one in direct experience or is there only a thought stating that "this sound is from a bird - it is outside etc etc"

There is a thought saying: listen, don't name it, just listen and another thought saying "oh you got the experience" and another "there is a thought".

I see thinking pretending to be a listener. It's crazy. (yes this another thought)

I can't find entity without thoughts.

I am still finding thoughts what say "i am listening, i am listening, i am listening"

Trying to help experincing.
Thought saying "without us (thoughts) you can't experience".

Nothing to find.

s there an entity hearing/receiving the sound or is there again only a thought stating that "I am hearing a bird"?

Just a thought.

Can you find an "I" hearing a sound coming from a "sounder" or is there simply sound?

There is only o sound, or whatever it is.

If you have the time try this also for "body sensations in my back"... Keep your eyes closed: Can you experience "body sensations in my back" or is there only a certain sensation (pressure) that thought labels "body sensations in my back"? Can you find an "I" feeling pressure or is there simply pressure? Can you experience the location "back" or is there only a thought stating this is where the sensation is coming from?

I cannot measure that, don't know my back. Don't know if is it mine. But there are energies or whatever it is, pressures.

:-) Nothing new to find, but everything to SEE! Who/what is it that is "searching"?

Yes, thought is searching or thinking that is searching.

Isn't "I am searching" only a thought proposing that an entity is looking for something to change itself? Can you find this entity anywhere outside of thought?

I can't find anything outside the thoughts, only another thoughts.
It's all about thinking and thinking and I don't think, but it is. Don't know what is thinking, can't label thinking (and that's another thinking and so on).

[Alexw]

There is a thought saying: listen, don't name it, just listen and another thought saying "oh you got the experience" and another "there is a thought".
I see thinking pretending to be a listener. It's crazy. (yes this another thought)
I can't find entity without thoughts.
I am still finding thoughts what say "i am listening, i am listening, i am listening"

Yes, well seen. Entities only exist in thought. It is fine that thought is coming up with this as it also makes sense in a conventional way - in everyday life and communication.

Trying to help experincing.
Thought saying "without us (thoughts) you can't experience".

Is that so... Maybe look at it this way: Even thought says a lot of things about this experience, it itself is simply "part of" this experience. Sounds arise, tastes arise, smells arise and thoughts arise... in direct experience, do any of these arise from an entity? Can a hearer, taster, smeller or thinker be found in direct experience? Is thought any more or less part of THIS than sound or smell?

There is only sound, or whatever it is.

Yes, there is only sound and even "sound" is only a word, a label used for communication...

Yes, thought is searching or thinking that is searching.

Yes, it is only a thought about something called searching and it is again thought stating that there is an entity searching...

It's all about thinking and thinking and I don't think, but it is. Don't know what is thinking, can't label thinking (and that's another thinking and so on).

Yes, no "I" that is thinking but still there is thought... No "I" to hear but still there is sound...

If there is no "thinker" but only thought can there be an entity deciding/choosing? Can you choose your next thought or does it simply appear depending on the current situation and conditioning?

[PiotrK]

Maybe look at it this way: Even thought says a lot of things about this experience, it itself is simply "part of" this experience. Sounds arise, tastes arise, smells arise and thoughts arise... in direct experience, do any of these arise from an entity? Can a hearer, taster, smeller or thinker be found in direct experience? Is thought any more or less part of THIS than sound or smell?

Can I break this experience? Am I sentenced to an experience? What If thoughts are so much denying experiencing.
...
Ok :) I got it - another concepts.

But there must be a thought which allows and accepts whatever it is right now.
Of course i can't find this thought, that's why it is how it is.

it IS how it IS.

But still searching for better IS... and of course nothing is found.

Ok, I can't find experience, I can't find a thouht, I can't find hearer, taster, smeller or thinker (but there is thought arising whith dumb believing that there must be hidden one :)).
How to live life without trust to your thoughts? I know, this is strategizing and conceptualizing and it can't be true.

And so on and so on :)
---
I keep sentences above, but there aren't actual now - everything is still changing.

If there is no "thinker" but only thought can there be an entity deciding/choosing? Can you choose your next thought or does it simply appear depending on the current situation and conditioning?

Maybe it's not a big deal with this choosing and deciding, there are some choosing deciding just happening.
I pretend i can choose another thought, thoughts can control thinking somehow. I think on what you wrote. I planned before that now I am sitting and being focused on this. Of course it never goes exactly as planned, but the direction could be shown.
Hm, but there are only thoughts, not direct experience.

[Alexw]

But there must be a thought which allows and accepts whatever it is right now.
Of course i can't find this thought, that's why it is how it is.
it IS how it IS.
But still searching for better IS... and of course nothing is found.

Yes, acceptance or rejection of WHAT IS is purely thought based. How could EVER anything be wrong with THIS?
It is only thought stating that there is something wrong... isn't it?
Society is based on certain conventions. To live and be part of a society they are necessary for interaction - so don't seek to banish them. They all have their value.

I can't find hearer, taster, smeller or thinker (but there is thought arising whith dumb believing that there must be hidden one :)).
How to live life without trust to your thoughts?

Well, you have been living life so far and thoughts have simply happened... What is it that needs to "trust in thought"?
Wouldn't there have to be an entity there to trust thought? Isn't "trust" just a thought about another thought? Can one thought trust another thought?

Maybe it's not a big deal with this choosing and deciding, there are some choosing deciding just happening.
I pretend i can choose another thought, thoughts can control thinking somehow.

When you "pretend that you can choose another thought" - isn't this also just a thought that states that this is so? Or is there an "I" that pretends to do so? Can you find this "I" that is doing this?

I planned before that now I am sitting and being focused on this. Of course it never goes exactly as planned, but the direction could be shown.

During the day, try to observe how many things are constantly decided one or the other way. Was there always a chooser/decider active before a decision was made? When you walk, do you decide to put the left foot in front of the right foot? When you eat, do you decide to cut and chew your food?
Try to see when it feels like you actively made a decision - was there something that happened before the decision was made? Maybe a thought arising about an intention do something a certain way? Isn't the decision simply a follow on to this thought? Did you decide to think the "intention-thought"?

You can also try this short exercise:
On a count of 5, rise either your left or right arm or none. Was there an entity "I" involved? How is it experienced?

[PiotrK]

It is only thought stating that there is something wrong... isn't it?

Yes, there are thoughts only, for things happening it doesn't matter.

When you "pretend that you can choose another thought" - isn't this also just a thought that states that this is so? Or is there an "I" that pretends to do so? Can you find this "I" that is doing this?

No I can't find anything.

Try to see when it feels like you actively made a decision - was there something that happened before the decision was made? Maybe a thought arising about an intention do something a certain way? Isn't the decision simply a follow on to this thought? Did you decide to think the "intention-thought"?

So there is no I :)
Thoughts, another thoughts and things happening. There is nobody to make them. They all are, they are not illusion, the illusion is a person.
I see.

You can also try this short exercise:
On a count of 5, rise either your left or right arm or none. Was there an entity "I" involved? How is it experienced?

Yes, no I doing this. Thouhts and body mechanism.
...

[Alexw]

So there is no I :)
Thoughts, another thoughts and things happening. There is nobody to make them. They all are, they are not illusion, the illusion is a person.
I see.

Yes, thoughts simply are, just as seeing, hearing, smelling and tasting just are - just as this experience simply and effortlessly is.
If you call everything that is purely a thought-story (= not based on direct experience) an illusion then yes, person is an illusion, just like Santa Claus is an illusion. How does this make you feel?

If there is no entity "I/me" outside of thought, what are "others"?

[PiotrK]

person is an illusion, just like Santa Claus is an illusion. How does this make you feel?

oh, very good
I see that it's just a convincing playing a role since being a child and believing that is real.

If there is no entity "I/me" outside of thought, what are "others"?

Yes, others are inside of thought, memories etc