Lead me in

[beesgohurray]

Hey,

I am a 22 year old guy and I've been meditating
for around 2-3 months now. I once felt absolute
bliss during meditation and i came there by hearing
what the observer said moment to moment.

Can someone guide me to figure out this ego thing?

Thank you, I am waiting.

[Sarah7]

Hi beesgohurray
My name is Sarah and I would be happy to guide you. What would you like me to call you?

Can you tell me how you came to be here? Have you looked around the site? Do you now what we do here?

Can you tell me what you expect from this process, what you think the gate is and what you expect you will be like after?
Look forward to working with you. Sarah xx

[beesgohurray]

Hey Sarah, you can call me Ed.
I was first browsing Dharma Overground than I took a look at Direct Pointing and it led me here.

I've looked around this place and i've read some of the articles and archived conversations and I know what you guys do. :D

The expectations are that I obtain more freedom and less daily anxiety.
:)

[Sarah7]

Hi Ed

Just so that I know about any time differences, whereabouts do you live? I’m in England.

There are also a few standard ground rules before we start:

Please agree to post at least once a day, even if only to say that you're still around, and I'll do the same. Sometimes it might just not be possible for one of us to post substantively and of course we'd find a way to work round that.

I am not your teacher, all I can do is point and you look, until clear seeing happens.

In general, I will ask questions and you look deeply and respond with 100% honesty.

Responses require simple, uncontrived honest looking. There are no wrong or right answers.

Responses are best from direct experience (the physical evidence of seeing, hearing, touching, tasting, and smelling, prior to the story or explanation about them). Long-winded, analytical and philosophical or stream of consciousness answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. Just listen very closely to the answers that arise in you, and answer to the very best of your ability at that time. (Read the article at http://www.liberationunleashed.com/Arti ... ience.html for more help on distinguishing what is direct experience.)

Put aside all other teachings, philosophies etc. for the duration of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention into seeing this reality, as it is. (If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it's ok to continue with that. And it's fine to read threads in this forum and the Gateless Gatecrashers book.)

Please learn to use the quote function, see viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660 for instructions.

If you haven't already seen it, there is intro info at http://www.liberationunleashed.com/, together with our disclaimer and a short video.

Please confirm that you have seen these, that you agree to the disclaimer and then we'll begin.

Finally, here's a couple of helpful points:

1) You can press 'subscribe to this topic' in the blue bar at the bottom of this page and receive a notification email every time I post here.

2) The site has a nasty habit of logging you out while you write a reply, which can mean you lose what you have written. One way to avoid this is to write elsewhere, then just paste the message into the 'reply' window when you're ready to send.

Shall we start?

I once felt absolute bliss during meditation

Are you wanting bliss to come back or possibly to stay?

and i came there by hearing what the observer said moment to moment.

Can you explain this please?

Can someone guide me to figure out this ego thing?

Can you explain this please?
Love Sarah xxx

[beesgohurray]

Hey Sarah

I am in the New York timezone.
I agree to the all the rules that are listed.

I once felt absolute bliss during meditation

Are you wanting bliss to come back or possibly to stay?

To come back and stay but that is not my expectation out of this process.
My expectation out of this is that things will be smoother.

and i came there by hearing what the observer said moment to moment.

Can you explain this please?

I didn't only pay attention to the process of when thoughts arise but also about the notion
of the practice itself. Observations like "Omg, this is it.".

Can someone guide me to figure out this ego thing?

Can you explain this please?

I mean to find out how to not be identified with experiences, feelings and thoughts.
There is a self within me that I can experience in meditation. Somewhere in the belly area
and unless I am vigilantly observing things then I can see it engage thoughts in the background.

[Sarah7]

Hi Ed

To come back and stay but that is not my expectation out of this process.

Can anything exist outside the present moment? Can you find anything that does?
In your direct experience, is there anything permanent right now?

I mean to find out how to not be identified with experiences, feelings and thoughts.

How do you think, feel or experience the 'self', 'I' or ‘me’'? Let’s get a bit more specific.

For instance does it feel like its in the centre or middle of experience, is it solid or thick, does it feel fixed or permanent, is it inside the body or part of the body, does it change, does it feel uniquely different and separate, does it become more or less solid or obvious depending on experience, does it have colour or shape or texture, is it small or large, does this self own the body or the thoughts and feelings it experiences?

Is it made up of thoughts and feelings, sensations, emotions, likes and dislikes, opinions, memories and experiences, perceptions, character and personality, does this self decide, chose, act, do and control? Anything else? Is there a time when the self is not experienced?

There is a self within me that I can experience in meditation. Somewhere in the belly area
and unless I am vigilantly observing things then I can see it engage thoughts in the background.

Now have a really good look and tell me where does the 'self' that you conceive yourself to be reside? Is it in the body as a whole, part of the body for instance you say the belly area or somewhere else? Can you pinpoint an exact reference point? Can it be found, at all?

There is absolutely no "you" in any way, shape, or form. No "you" thinking your thoughts. No "you" living your life. There never has been a "you" nor will there ever be. Take those statements deep inside. Really let them sink in. What physical sensations do you notice? What thoughts do you notice? What feelings do you notice?

You are what you are looking for. You ‘are’ what you seek. Take those statements deep inside. Really let them sink in. What physical sensations do you notice? What thoughts do you notice? What feelings do you notice?
Have a really good look and report back what you notice. Enjoy!
Much Love Sarah xx

[beesgohurray]

Can anything exist outside the present moment? Can you find anything that does?

No, it's all happening in the present.

In your direct experience, is there anything permanent right now?

Yes. My core is permanent.

How do you think, feel or experience the 'self', 'I' or ‘me’'?

As a sacred part within me. It's in the middle of the experience, it's solid and has a texture like snow. xD
It kinda gives me the experience of being me and not something "else".

Is it made up of thoughts and feelings, sensations, emotions, likes and dislikes, opinions, memories and experiences, perceptions, character and personality, does this self decide, chose, act, do and control? Anything else? Is there a time when the self is not experienced?

Yes! It's a combination of hopes, dreams, parts of identity, age, gender, expectations and everything else that defines me. I think that when I am asleep I don't experience it. Otherwise it is always with me, at times much more apparent. For example when my expectations or dreams are crushed I can feel it more engaged because the emotions are strong and it owns them. During meditation, it is still there and gives the whole experience that I am the one who is performing it. Most of the time it owns the body, thoughts and emotions. During meditation I can distance it from the thoughts and see it engage them and after I've noticed it, the experience is in the past. Sort of, sneaks by me.

Now have a really good look and tell me where does the 'self' that you conceive yourself to be reside? Is it in the body as a whole, part of the body for instance you say the belly area or somewhere else? Can you pinpoint an exact reference point? Can it be found, at all?

I can find it, it's in the belly area. It's a medium sized chunk with snowy texture.

There is absolutely no "you" in any way, shape, or form. No "you" thinking your thoughts. No "you" living your life. There never has been a "you" nor will there ever be. Take those statements deep inside. Really let them sink in. What physical sensations do you notice? What thoughts do you notice? What feelings do you notice?

I notice an overall unpleasant physical sensation over the entire body when I think of such a scenario. The thoughts are suggesting of a zombie like existence. There is fear as well of losing something valuable and of losing the sole thing that could provide pleasure.

You are what you are looking for. You ‘are’ what you seek. Take those statements deep inside. Really let them sink in. What physical sensations do you notice? What thoughts do you notice? What feelings do you notice?

Thoughts of freedom and lightness come to mind and there are no physical sensations.

[Sarah7]

Hi Ed
OK – this process is going to challenge everything you think you know, everything you have read and beliefs you have collected. So just a gentle reminder – please answer from your own direct experience - what you notice – not from a book or from what you think you should write.

Yes. My core is permanent.

Can you explain please? What is your core?

As a sacred part within me. It's in the middle of the experience, it's solid and has a texture like snow. It kinda gives me the experience of being me and not something "else".

Is sacred a label or belief or is that felt? So you feel separate from experience?

OK – a little experiment to look at labelling and how we do it!
Id like you to just sit for 5 - 10 minutes with a paper and pen and I want you to record everything you notice from your ‘I’ list. I want you too look at what experiences come up, what actions you notice, what labels you see and WHERE they are applied, what feelings and emotions come up, and what sensations arise.
Don’t add to what shows itself, don’t analyse, just plain description. Watch the body for any sensations like relaxing or tightening. Just write me a list like - I am lying in bed, I am hearing the rain, I am writing this list, I can feel a sensation of relaxing etc….

Id like you then to repeat the exercise doing exactly the same as you did above, but this time I don’t want you to use the word ‘I’ or ‘me’ when you write the list of what you notice. Again don’t add to what shows itself, don’t analyse, just plain description. Watch the body for any sensations like relaxing or tightening. Just write me a list like - waiting for the next thought, writing, breathing, listening, relaxing sensation etc…
What do you notice from doing the two looking exercises?

Which feels truer?

If you say ‘my money’ and compare it to ‘money’, ‘my relationship’ compared to ‘relationship’ or ‘my time’ compared to ‘time’ – does if feel different? Does one feel heavier than the other?
Enjoy!
Lots of Love Sarah xxx

[beesgohurray]

Can you explain please? What is your core?

I can't explain it, it just feels permanent and is an amalgamation of thoughts, hopes, desires, feelings, expectations, intuitions and information about my person.(age, gender, skills, etc..)

Is sacred a label or belief or is that felt? So you feel separate from experience?

I don't know but it is mostly felt. I feel that this is my experience. It kinda belongs to me.

What do you notice from doing the two looking exercises?

When I describe experience with "I", it seems heavier and much more intimate. It kinda feels
much deeper.
When I describe experiences without it, it seems easy to do and it gives me a kind of a light surface feeling.

If you say ‘my money’ and compare it to ‘money’, ‘my relationship’ compared to ‘relationship’ or ‘my time’ compared to ‘time’ – does if feel different? Does one feel heavier than the other?

Yes when I say "my money" it's heavier than just saying "money".
There is bigger attachment than just describing it as just "money", "relationship"..etc.

[Sarah7]

Hi Ed
Thanks for that – so continuing with labelling and how and when we use it.
Have you ever noticed sometimes that you arrive at a destination and don't really recall actually making the journey? It was as if the body was just doing its thing, driving just happened. It was as if the body was just doing its thing, driving just happened. It is only afterwards that the mind grabs hold of the experience and states 'I was driving the car' or, if questioned whilst driving (a present continuous activity), it would say 'I am driving the car'.
Whether your mind is totally concentrating on each gear shift that 'I' make, each look in the rear view mirror that 'I' makes, each twist of the steering wheel . . . or the entire journey is done automatically, the same result is achieved. Similarly when doing household tasks. Whether mind is involved or not, the task still gets accomplished.
Now I want you to look during your day at how labelling happens. See if you can catch ‘I’, ‘I’m’, ‘me’, ‘my’, ‘mine’, ‘I’ve’, etc See if you can see what you apply it too. Is it applied to doing, thinking etc? Is it all the time, most of the time? Is it like a commentary or like an ownership? Can you see where and when it labels - before, during or after?

We put labels on sensations like that is warm or that is painful, and the labels are treated as real. However, the label 'water' is not water. Have a look at the labels used to describe sensations. Can you see any examples? When noticed – was the label treated/believed to be as real as the sensation?

Do you look without labelling?
Lots of Love Sarah xxx

[beesgohurray]

Hey,

Just a quick update.
Something has happened, I was writing in my diary analyzing who's in control of thoughts, emotions, intentions, desires and I came to the conclusions that in that scenario I relinquish all power over my life. But since I is a thought there is no relinquishing no accepting control. Anyway, I giggled and my heart started pounding real hard.
Thought I was going to lose my mind. And I was really really afraid.
Things are a bit calmer now.
But I will need some time with this as it might be a placebo effect or
something else entirely.
I will respond to your next entry after I've stabilized a bit.
Cheers.

[Sarah7]

Hi Ed
Have a look at this:
Fear is resistance and ‘I don’t like’ – look yourself. See if you can turn towards this feeling of fear so completely, so fully, allow it into you without the slightest trace of resistance – then turn around and see what remains of the fear. Can you allow this fear so completely? Can you see that what you essentially are already allows that so fully without the slightest resistance to it? For who or what is it a problem that there is fear? Is it a problem for a single thought? What is it a problem for after that single thought has gone as it will? Another thought? In between the 2 thoughts is there a problem? Only thought is worried or threatened. What is the sensation itself – striped of story – ignore the thoughts – look to the sensation only. The sensation changes continually or vibrates. Go into it. How old is the vibration, how long has this fear labelled sensation been? Has it just happened, does it have a history this sensation (apart from what thought gives it). How would you describe this sensation? Is it ever changing? Is it painful? Is it a problem this sensation? If thought says its unpleasant is it really? Go to the sensations and check under the label and story. Is unpleasantness added by thought? Look as new born baby – you know nothing but the current experience – is it really unpleasant? Go to the sensation – turn down the volume of the thoughts – is it a problem? If you don’t think about it, do you know that this sensation is something labelled or called fear? Is there any inherent fear in the sensation itself? Go to the sensation located at the sole of your foot – would you call that sensation fear? Or is it just a tingling vibration? Now compare these 2 sensations – the neutral soles of the feet to the labelled sensation in the chest or where ever – whats the difference between them? Don’t refer to the labels – just refer to the sensations. Is one more intense? Like a headache? If you don’t refer to your thoughts is it unpleasant? Could you live with this sensation for the rest of your life? Can you see how the thoughts get mixed up with the sensation? Is there an ‘I cant’ in there – that’s a thought. Is there an ‘I don’t want’ in there – that’s a thought. Go past the thought to the body sensation. Can you detect interpretation of the sensation? Thoughts again. Can you see the labels thought is trying to add - like – ‘this is fear’, ‘this is unpleasant’ or ‘this has been here for so long’? None of these thoughts actually belong to the sensation. See the thoughts but place them to one side. Without these thoughts would you know these sensations were fear? Same with the body – pure tingling sensation with thought overlaid. Is there resistance in the sensation or is it in the thought?
The constriction is caused by thought. The tension is caused by thoughts. What happens as the sensation is relieved of its labels?

Can you find the one that is afraid? Outside of thought?
Lots of Love Sarah xxx

[beesgohurray]

Fear is resistance and ‘I don’t like’ – look yourself. See if you can turn towards this feeling of fear so completely, so fully, allow it into you without the slightest trace of resistance – then turn around and see what remains of the fear. Can you allow this fear so completely? Can you see that what you essentially are already allows that so fully without the slightest resistance to it? For who or what is it a problem that there is fear? Is it a problem for a single thought? What is it a problem for after that single thought has gone as it will? Another thought? In between the 2 thoughts is there a problem? Only thought is worried or threatened.

I am fine now. I realize that fear is a thought but it is uncomfortable to the mind.

Can you see how the thoughts get mixed up with the sensation?

Yes, each sensation has a corresponding thought.

See the thoughts but place them to one side. Without these thoughts would you know these sensations were fear?

Of course not, you would just feel it.

Is there resistance in the sensation or is it in the thought?
The constriction is caused by thought. The tension is caused by thoughts. What happens as the sensation is relieved of its labels?

There can;t be a resistance to the sensation. When you strip off a sensation of labels it's just felt in pure form.

Can you find the one that is afraid? Outside of thought?

I don't know. It felt like something was thrown out and a sense of loss ensued.

Words appeared in my mind before I spoke them. I am somehow now immersed in the present moment but I've felt this way after meditative absorption as well. I feel great relief now but I don't know what it is.
or whether it will last.

Now I want you to look during your day at how labelling happens. See if you can catch ‘I’, ‘I’m’, ‘me’, ‘my’, ‘mine’, ‘I’ve’, etc See if you can see what you apply it too. Is it applied to doing, thinking etc?

Not now.

Do you look without labeling?

You do but you don't see. The mind recognizes what it looks at with labels.

[Sarah7]

Hi Ed

I am fine now. I realize that fear is a thought but it is uncomfortable to the mind.

Realize or see? Was it created from future based thoughts? Next time it appears have a good look. OK.

Of course not, you would just feel it.

Did you see this? Or think it? Just checking.

I don't know. It felt like something was thrown out and a sense of loss ensued.

Was that sense owned? Is it yours? Or did it simply pass through?

Words appeared in my mind before I spoke them.

Did you ever put words there? Did you plan what to think before the words came? Have a look – do you ever ‘know’ what you are going to say before it is thought or said?

I am somehow now immersed in the present moment but I've felt this way after meditative absorption as well.

When are you not in the present moment? Can you give me an example?

or whether it will last.

Does anything last?

Not now.

Keep looking Am repeating this - look during your day at how labelling happens. See if you can catch ‘I’, ‘I’m’, ‘me’, ‘my’, ‘mine’, ‘I’ve’, etc See if you can see what you apply it too. Is it applied to doing, thinking etc?

You do but you don't see. The mind recognizes what it looks at with labels.

Are you sure? Check again. See if hearing, seeing smelling etc all go on without thought explaining everything as it goes.
Lots of Love Sarah xxx

[beesgohurray]

Realize or see? Was it created from future based thoughts? Next time it appears have a good look. OK.

I saw. Yes, it was created by future based thoughts.

Did you see this? Or think it? Just checking.

Saw it.

Did you ever put words there? Did you plan what to think before the words came? Have a look – do you ever ‘know’ what you are going to say before it is thought or said?

No and I know that I'm not in control of anything. I feel detached from my body.
I don't know what I am anymore.

Does anything last?

Yes the universe. Or reality, something should be eternal. Or there could be a God.
There is no way this is a result of matter spontaneously forming stuff.

Keep looking Am repeating this - look during your day at how labelling happens. See if you can catch ‘I’, ‘I’m’, ‘me’, ‘my’, ‘mine’, ‘I’ve’, etc See if you can see what you apply it too. Is it applied to doing, thinking etc?

Not now as in the present moment I can't find an I.

Are you sure? Check again. See if hearing, seeing smelling etc all go on without thought explaining everything as it goes.

I am sure. No I am not sure. My mind is sure.

When are you not in the present moment? Can you give me an example?

No. There is only the present moment. The mind maybe sleeping or it may even shut down but
there is only the present moment.

Sarah, what if the mind/body fails to cope with it?
What if things just crash?
There is Dark Night that I read about and people went through a lot of pain there,
I don't want to go there.