Xain,
Thanks, hugely, for this guidance.
"Sitting on a porch now as a shadow flits across a tree as part of the play of life, there's a suspicion that there's little more to be seen. But then there's a doubt that this thought is just a crafty self-protection, to obviate the need to look. Then there's a thought that this is just a thought.
So then you did look, and realised it was a thought and not something that could be found pertaining to an 'I'.
Yes. These were all just thoughts experienced.
"So I don't know where I sit in this process
Is there an 'I' sitting anywhere? Was there ever?
No, and no. That was a thought about a persistent I, moving along a path (progressing). But no persistent I is found, just this experience now. The past is not directly experienced, but there's no thought that there was ever a real I.
Is it realised that thoughts make the claim about 'sitting',
Yes. There is experience of pressure on chair, seeing the body, etc, and a thought that labels it as "me sitting".
thought makes the claim 'I am this body',
Yes. There's seeing my hand, my arm, my shoulder, feeling the back of my head on a pillow (that labeling is sneaky! -- directly, it's seeing and a thought "my hand", etc.), imagining what my head looks like, hair color (a thought arising, hair color not experienced) -- i.e., experiences are labeled as my body, but these are thoughts. "I am this body" is a thought, which doesn't stand up to inspection.
thought makes the claim 'I am sitting somewhere'?
Yes. It's just a thought. It's followed by a thought that "I am sitting here" explains the various things experienced (touch, sight) in a coherent way. But it's an idea, not directly experienced.
"I imagine irrevocably realizing that my self is at most a collection of habits and experiences from which thoughts and actions (partly) arise, and that thoughts and actions and everything else just happen without "my" control.
What is your opinion now?
Is there even a separate self, an 'I' here right now that could realise something? Can that one be found?
No.
(It is clear that actions just happen. When driving down a one-lane road yesterday another vehicle came the other way; "my" foot jammed on the brake without being directed. There was seeing of the vehicles, of trees on each side, of stopping a few meters apart. Then thoughts arose -- I'd been driving too fast, lucky no-one is hurt, lucky to learn a lesson without harm. Just happening. Then done. And that's just a story arising now.)
Thoughts and actions arise. It's an idea (thought) that habits shaped by past experience contribute to thoughts and actions arising -- followed by another thought that it's a useful explanation -- but it's just a thought arising and passing. Passed. There's just experience (of soft noise, of touch, of chest rising labeled "in", etc), no "I" to realize anything.
"But I still largely think in terms of "I" (sometimes noticing it as hollow, sometimes not) and go into long cycles of consuming thought, more than I gather may be typical once the self is seen through, so I doubt that I see through it, at least fully.
Is there an 'I' doing this?
No. These were just thoughts.
Could it be that what you are describing is the memory (a thought) of times when identification with the 'I' thought happened, and when it did not?
Yes. "Identification with the 'I' thought" is something to look at -- it's not directly clear exactly what that is, even though it's clear enough that the answer to the question is yes.
Is the 'all consuming thought' something that could be different?
No. It just happens, uncontrolled. There's a thought that when I (haha) first asked for your help I wanted to escape all consuming thought; but now it (i.e. continuous thought, perhaps identifying with "I" as you suggest) is seen as just something that happens and there's laughter rather than regret or annoyance when breathing is noticed again.
If 'all consuming thoughts' appear to take a hold, is there an 'I' that could change this?
No. If they do, they do. They're thoughts that arise and pass.
"Not that control is something I want to get rid of . . .
Is there a separate self, an 'I' that ever had it?
No. There is no control, and according to memory (thought) there never was. There are memories of noticing that in earlier crisis moments actions just happened without control (and that even in playing ping pong, sometimes, actions just flowed without intention -- and that was the "best" playing). The rest of the time, when (and this is a thought) actions were slower and thoughts were interspersed it felt like there were decisions being made and carried out but there's no reason to imagine it wasn't just thoughts claiming actions as happens now.
Is it possible to get rid of something that was never there?
No! There's just seeing that there's no self here.
Do you have any further questions at this point?
Are you settled that 'I' is always simply 'a thought appearing'?
There is not an immediate yes or no answer. There are thoughts, but I (ha!) will answer this, and see if I have questions besides looking at "identifying with I", tomorrow -- it's late.
Thanks! (A thought "things are gradually becoming clearer" arises, with a laugh that that's rooted in a persistent improving self that's not found; how strange - but that's just a thought too!)
Peter
