Looking for a Guide please

[Sarah7]

Hi Tom
Lovely to hear from you!

I know that thoughts just come and go but it seems that noticing which thoughts are or aren’t useful is a lot of work. There seems to be a lot of effort involved in making sure the stories are seen for what they are – stories. I’m spending more energy on noticing thoughts and making sure the story isn’t followed than the energy that gets spent in suffering if the stories are followed anyway – that can’t be right! Am I ‘doing’ something wrong here? I’ve always read there’s no effort involved in ‘being’ but how can you ‘be’ if you have to constantly make sure you aren’t following stories. I don’t know what other peoples minds are like but mine seems to want to create a story several times a minute – this constant ‘noticing’ is very tiring! Is there a balance to be found somewhere and if so where is it found? Or am I completely on the wrong track?

Read this! How much is story about…..?
Look for the one who notices. OR does noticing just happen?
Look for the one who makes effort out of thought? OR does stuff just get done?
Are ‘you’ constantly watching for thoughts? OR does that just happen?
What thinks there’s something wrong coz its not supposed to be this way!!!!! And off we go again following thoughts! LOL.

I also notice that the constant watching for thoughts that might contain a story also creates a subtle sense of separation by seeming to create a difference between the one who is trying to be and the one that is having thoughts. So although I do see that there’s never actually anything to lose it feels like something has been lost and it feels like I’m trying to get it back!!

And if the thought about separation wasn't there - would there be any?
And where is the one who loses? Where is the one who is fighting to get back that feeling? What wants things to be all tied up in a neat and pretty bow and all understood! What wants a permanent state? What wants control over this? Does the mirror fight its reflections? Does it disregard, want to change or accept them? Does the mirror bring or send away? Does the reflection damage the mirror? Does the mirror ‘do’ anything?
Lots of Love Sarah xxxxx

[Tom707]

Hi Sarah

I'm writing this because I find its the best way for me to understand something....

There is only being. From the seeming perspective of an individual this isn't understood. A seeming individual 'tries' to 'be' even though they cannot be anything else. You are absolutely right , everything in my last post are thoughts made up of story, a story I believe in because i think I'm an individual.

Whilst I believe I am an individual the best I can 'do' is think it MIGHT BE POSSIBLE that some of it is story. So i try to see through the story from the perspective of the individual by creating more stories. Even dismissing stories from the perspective of an individual only creates more stories,

From the perspective of being - which I'm already anyway - I am Still doing exactly what I'm supposed to be doing but 'I' have no idea that is what's happening. Right now I'm meant to believe I'm an individual and it's possible even though there is no individual that has any control that the forces that be may make it possible for me to no longer believe I'm an individual and 'I' have no control over this. And all the time I'm writing this I get that Im already what I'm trying to look for.

Its the first time it's made enough sense to me to write down in my own words because I now understand it. I don't know whether that means it's only my intellectual understanding is now greater

Look for the one who notices. OR does noticing just happen?
Look for the one who makes effort out of thought? OR does stuff just get done?
Are ‘you’ constantly watching for thoughts? OR does that just happen?
What thinks there’s something wrong coz its not supposed to be this way!!!!! And off we go again following thoughts! LOL.

Noticing just happens. There's no one doing or deciding on the noticing.

Stuff just gets done. There is no one making an effort only thoughts about it.

There's no one watching thoughts, it just happens and they are just more thoughts about it.

There no one to think there anything wrong it's just another thought.


Many thanks again

Tom

[Sarah7]

Hi Tom
Has the illusion of self been seen through? If so what remains?
Is there any confusion left? Anymore questions? No more doubt? No more seeking?
Much Love Sarah xx

[Tom707]

Hi Sarah,

Has the illusion of self been seen through? If so what remains?
Is there any confusion left? Anymore questions? No more doubt? No more seeking?

I wish I could tell you the illusion had been seen through! Except for the brief period last week when it all made sense and there were no questions or seeking I feel back to where I was but with more of an intellectual understanding. The seeking still continues, the doubt still remains and the frustration levels have increased!

I ‘get’ it all logically. It makes perfect sense. There’s even been an experience of ‘it’. But it’s gone. “Once seen, never unseen”, you said. IF I’ve seen it, I’ve managed to un-see it. I know it happened but there’s not a KNOWING that it happened. There’s just a memory of something that happened. So the doubts come in as to whether anything happened.

If the knowing something happened is only a vague memory rather than a KNOWING then of what use is it? it could be just a story? I’m trying to be careful about expectations but there is no difference in the perspective of life now than there was last week and If I can borrow your signature – “If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are” – I get that but wouldn’t the lenses of life be that little bit cleaner or clearer?

I guess what I’ll do is keep going back to the start of our communications and go back through everything again and again until something sticks and get back to you shortly.

Thank you for your patience

Tom

[Sarah7]

Hi Tom

wish I could tell you the illusion had been seen through! Except for the brief period last week when it all made sense and there were no questions or seeking I feel back to where I was but with more of an intellectual understanding. The seeking still continues, the doubt still remains and the frustration levels have increased!

OK. Was there an expectation that that feeling would stay? What is permanent – anywhere?
Have a good look at this ‘doubt’ and ‘frustration’. Go straight to the feeling or sensation of. Bypass the words, the thoughts and aim like an arrow straight at the feeling. Striped of story what is it? Does it stay? Does it fluctuate? Does it come and go? Is it based on past – like I recognize this …..its ….. sort of thing? What is there under the thoughts of or about ‘doubt’ and ‘frustration’?

I ‘get’ it all logically. It makes perfect sense. There’s even been an experience of ‘it’. But it’s gone. “Once seen, never unseen”, you said. IF I’ve seen it, I’ve managed to un-see it. I know it happened but there’s not a KNOWING that it happened. There’s just a memory of something that happened. So the doubts come in as to whether anything happened.

Have a read of this:

http://vince-wisingup.blogspot.com.au/2 ... nment.html

If the knowing something happened is only a vague memory rather than a KNOWING then of what use is it? it could be just a story? I’m trying to be careful about expectations but there is no difference in the perspective of life now than there was last week and If I can borrow your signature – “If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are” – I get that but wouldn’t the lenses of life be that little bit cleaner or clearer?

Expectation Tom. How can things be different from what they are? Only in thought can want expect something bigger and better than this! Find that ‘want’. Track it down! Have a right good look at it! Im not going anywhere till you are sure or you have had enough. OK.
Lots of Love Sarah xxxx

[Tom707]

Hi Sarah,

OK. Was there an expectation that that feeling would stay? What is permanent – anywhere?

There wasn’t an expectation that the feeling would stay. I would say that feelings didn’t really play a part in this. I admit there was an expectation that this ‘understanding’ or whatever we want to call it would stay and always be available. It's like the analogy I see all over the site about Santa Claus. I don't have to remind myself every time I see or read anything about Santa that he's only a story. I saw it once and it stuck. There's an absolute certainly and conviction without having to test beliefs, thoughts and anything else and this conviction takes no time in being upheld, it's instant. Its implied – at least that’s the way I’ve interpreted it – that this ‘understanding’ is taken on board in a similar way. So whilst I know that nothing is PERMANENT - in the best way I can describe it – I am PERMANENTLY aware that Santa doesn’t exist! In what way is the Santa analogy different in my expectations of how this ‘understanding’ can be lived with? If the Santa analogy is reasonably accurate then I’m comfortable accepting that what I previously experienced was an experience only and I haven’t ‘realised’ anything. I’m happy with that – it just means I have more work to do.

Have a good look at this ‘doubt’ and ‘frustration’. Go straight to the feeling or sensation of. Bypass the words, the thoughts and aim like an arrow straight at the feeling. Striped of story what is it? Does it stay? Does it fluctuate? Does it come and go? Is it based on past – like I recognize this …..its ….. sort of thing? What is there under the thoughts of or about ‘doubt’ and ‘frustration’?

The feeling of doubt, frustration and want is basically something that is subtly felt on an almost continual basis. There must be some subtle thought going on subconsciously all the time about it. Because I don’t know how to fix the feelings there are aren’t any specific words that come up that can describe the feeling. When the feelings become stronger like they are at the moment it’s because I am more conscious of the thoughts that are generating them and those thoughts are actually trying to describe the way I’m feeling and the things the mind thinks could do to get rid of them.

If I bypass the thoughts then they are only sensations that dissipate slowly when not thought is bypassed. A few minutes later they reappear because something subconscious has made them rise again and it’s a conscious effort to dissipate them again.

So I can clearly see how thought creates the sensations and by not following the thoughts they dissipate. As I’ve read a thousand times before thoughts will always continue to come up, ‘realised’ or not. So I assume the process of dissipating the sensations will go on forever whether I have this understanding or not.

Have a read of this:
http://vince-wisingup.blogspot.com.au/2 ... nment.html

Very interesting article. Joan seems to imply that at some point she realised this ‘thing’ but sometimes she needs to remind herself of it.

Expectation Tom. How can things be different from what they are? Only in thought can want expect something bigger and better than this! Find that ‘want’. Track it down! Have a right good look at it! I’m not going anywhere till you are sure or you have had enough. OK.

My expectations are now so utterly at rock bottom I can longer call them expectations. There MUST be some benefit otherwise why have people gone on about it for thousands of years. I don’t need to be ‘realised’ to be aware that thoughts create stories.

Thanks for sticking with me Sarah

Tom

[Tom707]

Sorry about my negative last post! I know I’m seeing this all from the perspective of an individual. When no individual can be found the questions dry up. I guess I could have summarised my last post with a cut down version of the Santa analogy and for some reason it’s the bit that’s really bugging me – Once this is seen fully does it stick and would it be accurate to say I haven’t seen it fully?

Thanks

Tom

[Sarah7]

Hi Tom

I admit there was an expectation that this ‘understanding’ or whatever we want to call it would stay and always be available.

Available to who or what? Is this thought trying to understand and control?

It's like the analogy I see all over the site about Santa Claus. I don't have to remind myself every time I see or read anything about Santa that he's only a story. I saw it once and it stuck. There's an absolute certainly and conviction without having to test beliefs, thoughts and anything else and this conviction takes no time in being upheld, it's instant. Its implied – at least that’s the way I’ve interpreted it – that this ‘understanding’ is taken on board in a similar way. So whilst I know that nothing is PERMANENT - in the best way I can describe it – I am PERMANENTLY aware that Santa doesn’t exist!

To what is it a problem that this permanence apparently hasn’t happened? What sees all this movement of permanence, of events, of movement? Look behind, or under, or around thoughts – can you see space? Out of thought – is there a problem right now? DON’T think about it – just stop and look.

Because I don’t know how to fix the feelings there are aren’t any specific words that come up that can describe the feeling. When the feelings become stronger like they are at the moment it’s because I am more conscious of the thoughts that are generating them and those thoughts are actually trying to describe the way I’m feeling and the things the mind thinks could do to get rid of them. If I bypass the thoughts then they are only sensations that dissipate slowly when not thought is bypassed. A few minutes later they reappear because something subconscious has made them rise again and it’s a conscious effort to dissipate them again.

Just see and watch this take place. What wants to fix, to change, and to get rid? Just keep following this want. It doesn’t matter if you cant find the specific thought. That may or may not rise when ready. Just go straight to the feelings and look without story. Doesn’t matter if it doesn’t happen when thoughts think it should. Just keep looking when remembering happens. Breathe. Relax. And look.

So I can clearly see how thought creates the sensations and by not following the thoughts they dissipate. As I’ve read a thousand times before thoughts will always continue to come up, ‘realised’ or not. So I assume the process of dissipating the sensations will go on forever whether I have this understanding or not.

What would even think it could get rid of thoughts!!!!! Arent they also part of what is?
There is nothing to apologize for Tom
Lots of Love Sarah xxxx

[Sarah7]

Oh - OK - weird quotes just popped up! Hopefully you can discern my comments!????? LOL Sarah xxx

[Tom707]

Hi Sarah,

Available to who or what? Is this thought trying to understand and control?

The expectation was to thought only. Yes, thought is constantly trying to understand EVERYTHING and control everything. Another thought pops up – ‘I’ can see that thought is trying to take ownership!

Seeing is happening, tasting, hearing, smelling and there’s no problem with touching/sensation now either. The whole body just does what it does, there’s no me here doing it. I’m the impartial watcher of what it chooses to do. I think this is plain and clear because generally no thoughts ‘about’ the body typically come up. Thought in and of itself is another matter! Thoughts just come up there’s no problem with that but it’s that second thought that comes up saying “don’t listen to the first thought that’s just a thought” and then a 3rd thought dismisses the second etc. There’s still a sense of ownership and a subtle feeling that’s telling me that somewhere along the line one of these thoughts is me.

To what is it a problem that this permanence apparently hasn’t happened? What sees all this movement of permanence, of events, of movement? Look behind, or under, or around thoughts – can you see space? Out of thought – is there a problem right now? DON’T think about it – just stop and look.

Its only a problem to thought. EVERYTHING is only a problem to thought this is absolutely clear as day.
Without thought there’s just stuff going on
With thought there’s just stuff going on – it just doesn’t feel like it because there’s an association to the thoughts.

I’m having trouble looking around/under thoughts. The only way I seem to be able to directly experience something without thought is to look at a currently arising thought, wait for it to dissipate and then use that brief opportunity to do the direct looking. I accept thoughts just come up. I’m just struggling with looking at stuff without being affected by thoughts that may or may not be ongoing – I kind of have to mash the thought into pulp first and wait for no thought.

Just see and watch this take place. What wants to fix, to change, and to get rid? Just keep following this want. It doesn’t matter if you cant find the specific thought. That may or may not rise when ready. Just go straight to the feelings and look without story. Doesn’t matter if it doesn’t happen when thoughts think it should. Just keep looking when remembering happens. Breathe. Relax. And look.

A THOUGHT, A THOUGHT, A THOUGHT!

Trying to go straight to the feeling is an ongoing thing. There’s a feeling usually in the gut, when its looked at there’s a sort of sense that the feeling lifts out of the gut and it moves to ‘here’. It ‘looks’ like fluffy light cloud or mist that can just be blown away. The feeling seem to mutate it one that is neither good nor bad its just there. The deeper I try to look into it, it gets more and more transparent until you feel like you are in middle of it looking out. There’s absolutely nothing there. The feeling which is neither good or bad just melts away in to the background.

What would even think it could get rid of thoughts!!!!! Arent they also part of what is?

An individual who ‘thinks’ the current thought should be a better one. The seeming individual is also something that should be accepted because what is, is just what is.


Best wishes

Tom

[Sarah7]

Hi Tom

Yes, thought is constantly trying to understand EVERYTHING and control everything. Another thought pops up – ‘I’ can see that thought is trying to take ownership!

Thought in and of itself is another matter! Thoughts just come up there’s no problem with that but it’s that second thought that comes up saying “don’t listen to the first thought that’s just a thought” and then a 3rd thought dismisses the second etc. There’s still a sense of ownership and a subtle feeling that’s telling me that somewhere along the line one of these thoughts is me.

Lovely – now keep watching. Is it just a thought passing by – or can it actually do as it says? Who or what, if anything, is bothered by its passing – regardless of what it says?

Without thought there’s just stuff going on. With thought there’s just stuff going on – it just doesn’t feel like it because there’s an association to the thoughts.

YES!!!!! Track down that feeling of association – is it covered in story?

I’m just struggling with looking at stuff without being affected by thoughts that may or may not be ongoing – I kind of have to mash the thought into pulp first and wait for no thought.

What is affected by thought? Don’t think about that – Look! What power does a thought have? Tell me exactly what is affected? OR is it affecting another thought only? If so – does a thought think? Does it? Does one thought bring another thought or is there a thought A followed by a thought B and a thought C appears to link them? Looking may or may not happen – you know this – there is no control – but story may use this to bash you too!

Trying to go straight to the feeling is an ongoing thing. There’s a feeling usually in the gut, when its looked at there’s a sort of sense that the feeling lifts out of the gut and it moves to ‘here’. It ‘looks’ like fluffy light cloud or mist that can just be blown away. The feeling seem to mutate it one that is neither good nor bad its just there. The deeper I try to look into it, it gets more and more transparent until you feel like you are in middle of it looking out. There’s absolutely nothing there. The feeling which is neither good or bad just melts away in to the background.

LOVELY! However – be aware that thoughts may use this doing to rid you of unpleasant feelings. Thoughts like to do, to solve. If they do – just notice.
Lots of Love Sarah xxxx

[Tom707]

Hi Sarah,

Lovely – now keep watching. Is it just a thought passing by – or can it actually do as it says?

The body, the conditioning etc. goes to pick up the phone and then a split second later the thought comes in that ‘I’ must do it or a thought about doing it. Thought claims ownership by placing a sense of an ‘I’ over the whole experience. Unless you break it down slowly and really look at the whole experience it just feels like one thing but it’s actually a few things in very quick succession. It’s not the thought that gets the phone picked up.

…I can’t work out whether a thought about the phone ringing could still change the behavior of the body so that the phone no longer gets picked up depending on the story the thought comes up with.

Who or what, if anything, is bothered by its passing – regardless of what it says?

It’s a thought that just passes by unless its identified with and then a whole story could be spun. The only thing that could possibly be bothered by that thought is another thought. What’s weird is I had this stuff understood a week ago.

YES!!!!! Track down that feeling of association – is it covered in story?

It’s nothing but story!

What is affected by thought? Don’t think about that – Look! What power does a thought have?

In and of itself a thought has no power. But I am still trying to look deeply into whether a thought can actually change behaviour or whether it just appears to. Was something going to happen anyway with or without the series of thoughts about it?

It seems like a feeling can come up, a thought about the feeling comes up and the feeling could get worse because of the stories the thoughts create. The body then changes its behavior because of those thoughts so in that respect a thought seems to have power. Because I think I’m a thought the only thing I seem to be able to do is dismiss the previous one and then take on the identity of the next thought that comes up. I can see that’s what I’m doing. No wonder we suffer!!!

Tell me exactly what is affected? OR is it affecting another thought only? If so – does a thought think? Does it?

Still struggling with the above;-)

No a thought in and of itself can’t think.

Does one thought bring another thought or is there a thought A followed by a thought B and a thought C appears to link them?

Thoughts seem to be linked to each other a,b, c etc. EG “I’m hungry”, “I’ll have something to eat”, “ill look in the fridge”

LOVELY! However – be aware that thoughts may use this doing to rid you of unpleasant feelings. Thoughts like to do, to solve. If they do – just notice.

Definitely noticed that! The mind thinks yes now I have a new technique I can use to get rid of stuff that’s not wanted!

This lot of questions has definitely made me do some really good looking.

Thank you Sarah

Tom

[Sarah7]

Hi Tom

…I can’t work out whether a thought about the phone ringing could still change the behavior of the body............ Was something going to happen anyway with or without the series of thoughts about it?

OK – keep looking for that – try it with different things, different doings like go for a walk or tidy the kitchen. Look for any sign of control.

What’s weird is I had this stuff understood a week ago.

Weird to who – or what???? LOL.

It seems like a feeling can come up, a thought about the feeling comes up and the feeling could get worse because of the stories the thoughts create. The body then changes its behavior because of those thoughts so in that respect a thought seems to have power. Because I think I’m a thought the only thing I seem to be able to do is dismiss the previous one and then take on the identity of the next thought that comes up. I can see that’s what I’m doing. No wonder we suffer!!!

I don’t know how old you are Tom – only thought would expect all collected habit and story to disappear straight away! Can you hear thought say that?
Out of thought - where is the suffering?

Thoughts seem to be linked to each other a,b, c etc. EG “I’m hungry”, “I’ll have something to eat”, “ill look in the fridge”

And is it thought that creates a link between thoughts A and B? Have you ever had thought A followed by thought B with thought C being totally random? Is it really lots of single thoughts?
Again how is thought different from anything else that happens in this?
You are welcome – love and hugs Sarah xxxx

[Tom707]

Hi Sarah

OK – keep looking for that – try it with different things, different doings like go for a walk or tidy the kitchen. Look for any sign of control.

Im finding this bit really hard but I think I’m getting somewhere….. A decision is made as to where attention for example goes but I can’t find who/what makes the decision. Even by trying to trick ‘myself’ into looking at something I can’t find anywhere in my experience anything that makes the decision to do it. And maybe this is what I need to know. I’d been looking for something/someone that makes a decision and I can’t find it anywhere, although clearly decisions get made.

It can seem like a decision comes from thought eg. A voice in my head says “look at the wall” when doing the experiment and attention is placed on the wall, but I cant find the decider? Who/where is the one that made the decision to put the thought in my head that then would then take credit for ‘me’ looking at the wall – I can’t find that or original/primary who anywhere!

Decisions are still made ‘here’ I just can’t find anyone making them unless there is a subsequent thought claiming ownership about it and that is only a thought.

If there is no individual making decisions about what the body does, why does there need to be an individual producing the thoughts – they just are as well.

So attention goes wherever it wants to at all times and this could be either on an object OR a thought! - The thought bit is new for me. Before - I’d noticed that attention gets drawn anywhere it wants but I’d always assumed that ‘objects’ and ‘thoughts’ are completely separate and different in that respect. They aren’t. Attention goes anywhere it wants INCLUDING which thoughts it wants to pay attention to!! So there is no one I can find that has any control over any-thing, any thought or anything else AT ALL TIMES. And this must be exactly the same for everyone and everything else. Oh crap - there’s no-one here or anywhere else Lol.

So…the sensible thing on seeing this would be to completely and totally give up seeming control of everything (even though Tom has no control anyway) and let someone else worry about it. But there is still a sense of wanting to stay in control – in thought.

And….whoever is trying to find the one that’s making the decisions MUST be a thought. But there’s still a sense of searching for something going on.

Weird to who – or what???? LOL.

A thought

I don’t know how old you are Tom – only thought would expect all collected habit and story to disappear straight away! Can you hear thought say that?
Out of thought - where is the suffering?

There can only be suffering in thought.

And is it thought that creates a link between thoughts A and B? Have you ever had thought A followed by thought B with thought C being totally random? Is it really lots of single thoughts?

Again this is a difficult one… It seems that C could be a totally random thought because by the time you get to C attention has been placed on something else more urgent which has generated another thought and C gets forgotten. Is there possibly any different way you can ask this question for me to try again? And the same with the last part of the question?

Again how is thought different from anything else that happens in this?

Not sure I'm going to be able to answer this until Ive had a good look at the questions above.

Best wishes

Tom

[Sarah7]

Hi Tom
You’re doing really well with this! Some wonderful looking and noticing!

Even by trying to trick ‘myself’ into looking at something I can’t find anywhere in my experience anything that makes the decision to do it. And maybe this is what I need to know. I’d been looking for something/someone that makes a decision and I can’t find it anywhere, although clearly decisions get made

Yes! Keep looking till you have exhausted all possibilities. Leave no stone unturned!

Decisions are still made ‘here’ I just can’t find anyone making them unless there is a subsequent thought claiming ownership about it and that is only a thought.

YES!

If there is no individual making decisions about what the body does, why does there need to be an individual producing the thoughts – they just are as well.

YES!!!!!

So attention goes wherever it wants to at all times and this could be either on an object OR a thought!

Fabulous!!!!! BE with this a while!

The thought bit is new for me. Before - I’d noticed that attention gets drawn anywhere it wants but I’d always assumed that ‘objects’ and ‘thoughts’ are completely separate and different in that respect. They aren’t. Attention goes anywhere it wants INCLUDING which thoughts it wants to pay attention to!! So there is no one I can find that has any control over any-thing, any thought or anything else AT ALL TIMES. And this must be exactly the same for everyone and everything else. Oh crap - there’s no-one here or anywhere else Lol.

Yes Tom :)

…the sensible thing on seeing this would be to completely and totally give up seeming control of everything (even though Tom has no control anyway) and let someone else worry about it. But there is still a sense of wanting to stay in control – in thought.

Yes – but again look – attention has been aimed at thought this whole time pretty much. If attention doesn’t stay there and moves off – what happens to the thought of control? Does it fade like everything else that attention moved off?

But there’s still a sense of searching for something going on.

Well – sometimes habits take a while to fall off so to speak. Who or what would set a time – would that be thought bringing an idea of a controller again?

There can only be suffering in thought.

And thought has the power to do what?

Is there possibly any different way you can ask this question for me to try again? And the same with the last part of the question?

Well if thoughts don’t think – how can a link be made between thought A and thought B? Is thought a lot of single thoughts – like pearls on a necklace? Or clouds in the sky?
How you feeling?
Lots of Love Sarah xxx