Looking for some direction

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Brant
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Re: Looking for some direction

Postby Brant » Tue Jun 24, 2014 1:28 pm

Last night and today your comments made so much sense and I had moments there (as usual) but hesitation got me. Right now I have no leverage... just getting easily carried away on whatever thought narrative is going on.
‘forget all beliefs and just see what’s true’. Question all assumptions. Don't let thoughts go uninvestigated.
I'll start with this to get things rolling.

Sometimes I get caught up in looking for a me as a concept... oh god... as i write that i realise I've written it before... round in this loop i go...

ok real-time narrative to break my funk:

im standing here... or at least there is standing + a thought image of a me doing the standing... there is a body doing the standing and the mind saying it's a me... is it possible for these things to exist without there being a me?... what is a me? a controller... who or what is doing this thinking... watching... thoughts appear then vanish when watched... they dissolve and/or change... can this be happening on it's own?

Question everything is the thought... then a thought of a me being a questioner... very subtle could have gone unseen for a while... but how long is a while... how can a thought possibly last in time...

it's all i got now.... will write again tomorrow and do a better job of it.

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Freddi
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Re: Looking for some direction

Postby Freddi » Tue Jun 24, 2014 1:48 pm

1)
Last night and today your comments made so much sense and I had moments there (as usual) but hesitation got me
What ‘me’ was ‘got’ by hesitation? A hesitation-thought got a me-thought? Scan your present experience, what reality is there behind this statement?
Who or what gets carried away? Is it just that sometimes thought narrative is believed and captivating and sometimes not? Is that a problem?

2)
im standing here... or at least there is standing + a thought image of a me doing the standing... there is a body doing the standing and the mind saying it's a me... is it possible for these things to exist without there being a me?... what is a me? a controller... who or what is doing this thinking... watching... thoughts appear then vanish when watched... they dissolve and/or change... can this be happening on it's own?
What is a ‘mind’? Question that concept. Describe ‘mind’ in direct experience. Is it a thought? Is it just the current thought? Is it any more than that?

3) Follow these questions that you ask. Stay with them and let me know what comes up: What is a ‘me’? Who or what is doing this thinking? Can this be happening on its own?

Thanks!

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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Brant
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Re: Looking for some direction

Postby Brant » Wed Jun 25, 2014 11:29 am

More focussed today.
What ‘me’ was ‘got’ by hesitation? A hesitation-thought got a me-thought? Scan your present experience, what reality is there behind this statement?
'The mind' was distracted by thoughts of doubt... thoughts of a self not getting free... the mind is just a thought of a thought-generator... so really what happened is I tuned into thought instead of staying with the other senses required to see the truth. Who tuned into thought?
Who or what gets carried away? Is it just that sometimes thought narrative is believed and captivating and sometimes not? Is that a problem?
Believed and captivating by who? I'll check now.

Was looking and focussing for a while... 'trying'... then decided to put on some music and just relax and let everything come to me... all the senses just let them happen. Now I could be just imagining things and projecting some rubbish 'as i imagine it' experience somehow... but as i was staring at the light fixture and floated the intent to see the source of the seeing the edges of my vision moved away and the light fixture 'joined' with the source of the vision... I'm not through but that felt very real and like nothing i've experienced before... possibly the precipice?

I want to persure this some more... will brush my teeth and settle in for some more looking.

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Freddi
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Re: Looking for some direction

Postby Freddi » Wed Jun 25, 2014 12:15 pm

so really what happened is I tuned into thought instead of staying with the other senses required to see the truth. Who tuned into thought?
Exactly, ask that question and stay with it. See what’s alive now and respond from that place. Who or what is tuning into thought? Is any separate entity experienced there? Or is there just tuning into and out of thought?
but as i was staring at the light fixture and floated the intent to see the source of the seeing the edges of my vision moved away and the light fixture 'joined' with the source of the vision...
Can you expand on this a little? What are the 'edges of your vision'? Are there lines that separate what is seen from this 'source'?
When you say that the light fixture 'joined' with the source of the vision, what is ‘the source of the vision’ that could be joined? Is there a definite object called 'light fixture' that exists apart from the experiencing of it?

Scan your direct experience and let me know what you see. Is there a separate object identifiable as ‘source of vision’?

Thanks!

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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Brant
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Re: Looking for some direction

Postby Brant » Wed Jun 25, 2014 12:29 pm

What i saw was nothingness where the seer should have been... i could also describe the light fixture as being the same as this nothingness despite it appearing within sight. But it only happened for a moment... and i feel different now having settled back and checking with my other senses for a source of hearing feeling etc... there is definitely a change but the question is will it last... i think it won't given how long I've been trying to crack this but I'm happy at this outcome.

My hands don't feel like my hands... they're just hands and the experience of those hands. 10 minutes ago that felt more apparent but it's starting to fade a bit now.

My theory is it was a glimpse but it's had an affect.

I'll look some more tonight into who or what is tuning into thought, but i feel quite relaxed and don't have that drive to 'break through' so much at the moment.

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Freddi
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Re: Looking for some direction

Postby Freddi » Wed Jun 25, 2014 12:46 pm

What i saw was nothingness where the seer should have been...
’Should’ have been? According to what, expectations? Habitual thinking?
i feel different now having settled back and checking with my other senses for a source of hearing feeling etc... there is definitely a change but the question is will it last... i think it won't given how long I've been trying to crack this but I'm happy at this outcome.
Ah yes, those well known thoughts: ‘will it last’, ‘I think it won’t’, ‘I’ve been trying to crack this for a while’. We know those, by now, don’t we? How are they viewed now? Do they have any power? Can they change WHAT IS?
You say ‘you are happy at this outcome’ and later ‘I feel quite relaxed’. That is what is alive for you now, that is where it's at. You have seen that there is no seer, no hearer, no thinker and you feel relaxed, you say that the ‘drive’ has gone. That’s all it takes. One honest look.

Does ‘seeing’ amount to a separate object that a ‘you’ needs to ‘get’ and can ‘lose’? Or is it something that just happens naturally, all by itself? Would ‘seeing’ have to be a special experience, with fireworks, angels and trumpets or is it allowed to be simple, obvious, as natural as breathing?

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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Re: Looking for some direction

Postby Brant » Thu Jun 26, 2014 12:27 pm

I think the search is over Freddi. The shift is subtle but it has lasted...

I look for a doer and I can't find one... but it's different to before seeing 'the void' last night... prior to that it was more intellectual... now it's... quite simple... simple enough to be suspicious that it is that 'easy' or small a shift. This morning things flowed smoothly... watering the plants was a pleasure, my body shed a lot of tension (that was the relaxed feeling). Conditioning or 'thought tendencies' are still there... especially since I sat all day in front of a computer in analytical mode... so the 'flow' faded... but it doesn't take so much to look for a self and see there is none. Nor was there ever...

Maybe the process now is a bit of cleanup, tying loose ends etc. Whatever the case, I'm taking tomorrow off work and heading into the countryside to laze about and just watch things.
’Should’ have been? According to what, expectations? Habitual thinking?
Habitual thinking...
Ah yes, those well known thoughts: ‘will it last’, ‘I think it won’t’, ‘I’ve been trying to crack this for a while’. We know those, by now, don’t we? How are they viewed now? Do they have any power? Can they change WHAT IS?
No, they're just thoughts.
That’s all it takes. One honest look.
It was an honest look in hindsight... it all exists as a memory now.
Does ‘seeing’ amount to a separate object that a ‘you’ needs to ‘get’ and can ‘lose’?
That was part of the trouble I think... the trying (a fictional me trying to see a lack of me) .. as soon as I settled into the other senses and let it all come as it is... then added some intent and focus... plus a final push i saw the void. or seeing the void happened so to speak. semantics.
Would ‘seeing’ have to be a special experience, with fireworks, angels and trumpets or is it allowed to be simple, obvious, as natural as breathing?
Seeing is natural and obvious.. it just happens... but the extra focus or intent did bring about the initial seeing of the void... I don't fully understand it or understand what happened... nothing seeing nothing... but a shift has happened. I think i need to do some reading (btw I've only ever read Tolle and McKenna) and just watch.

What's next? - I'll have plenty of time to investigate things over the next few days.


We may not be out of the woods yet - I'm still naturally sceptical, and i want to dot the i's and cross the t's... but - thanks for your guidance!!!

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Freddi
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Re: Looking for some direction

Postby Freddi » Thu Jun 26, 2014 1:25 pm

Hi Brant

Wow. I am very moved to read your last post. Thank you for this shared experience and this privilege.
I think the search is over Freddi. The shift is subtle but it has lasted...
I look for a doer and I can't find one... but it's different to before seeing 'the void' last night... prior to that it was more intellectual... now it's... quite simple... simple enough to be suspicious that it is that 'easy' or small a shift. This morning things flowed smoothly... watering the plants was a pleasure, my body shed a lot of tension (that was the relaxed feeling). Conditioning or 'thought tendencies' are still there... especially since I sat all day in front of a computer in analytical mode... so the 'flow' faded... but it doesn't take so much to look for a self and see there is none. Nor was there ever...
Maybe the process now is a bit of cleanup, tying loose ends etc. Whatever the case, I'm taking tomorrow off work and heading into the countryside to laze about and just watch things.
That’s beautifully put and I am reading a lot of clarity in your words now. Enjoy this watching. It's a permanent celebration.
What's next? - I'll have plenty of time to investigate things over the next few days.
What’s next? Well here is what I suggest. I ask you our usual summing-up questions, just to make sure we’ve covered all areas, then when we’re both happy with your answers, I’ll invite other guides to have a look to double-check. Once this process is over, I will invite you to join a couple of groups where ‘you’ and ‘others’ can share post-gate experiences. That does mean dealing with residual conditioning, habitual thinking etc. Seeing that there is no self is only a beginning. Now the real investigation begins, all thoughts are up for what Jed McKenna calls ‘spiritual autolysis’, or self-digestion. What is true? What is actually happening, here and now, etc. I can recommend you some reading too and we can continue to work together in another part of the forum dedicated to this.

Here are the questions, take your time. No rush. Remember to answer from what is alive in ‘you’ right now, your direct experience.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
 
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now. 
 
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
 
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? 
 
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
 
6) Anything to add?

I look forward to your answers, Brant.

Warm wishes

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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Brant
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Re: Looking for some direction

Postby Brant » Fri Jun 27, 2014 12:08 pm

I'm in a very spotty reception area at the moment - have to type this on my phone outside. I'll type a response to your questions offline and post them tomorrow. I have no doubts now though... gateless gate makes sense now.

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Freddi
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Re: Looking for some direction

Postby Freddi » Fri Jun 27, 2014 12:12 pm

Great, Brant, enjoy being out, lazing around and just 'watch things'.

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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Re: Looking for some direction

Postby Brant » Sun Jun 29, 2014 7:22 am

Ok, things have been a bit confusing over the last few days - sometimes I'm totally positive I've seen what I need to see (that there is no seer), then others I'm not so sure. All the positive affects from that deeper looking experience have mostly worn off now (from what I can tell), but I'm no longer confused about the 'me' thing. I know there is no 'me', but there is thought which keeps presenting itself implying otherwise - including the thought that 'I' haven't seen what I need to see yet.


1) No. There is no separate entity 'me' or 'i' - only the thought which suggests this to be the case. Thought is real - but not the content of the thought.This has obviously always been the case - but not so obvious pre-deeper looking event.


2) The illusion of a separate self is the unchecked belief that there is a 'me' thinking thoughts, a me choosing to move the body, a me feeling the sensation of the body, a me seeing the vision, and a me hearing the sounds. I'll use an analogy: You're on a roller coaster and have been for 30 odd years, you're controlling it with your mind - you control when it turns, how fast its going, and even to make sure it stays on the tracks. Naturally you need to focus, your eyebrows are furrowed and you grip on a bit with your body. Can't have the roller coaster crash or come off the rails! Then one day someone behind you tells you you're not controlling it at all - it's going by itself. The thought never occurred to you - surely not… it's always been like this… look we just went around a bend just as I thought to do that…. or was the thought simply redundant?… As time goes you experiment by releasing your grip for a moment, or seeing what happens when you don't try to control the coaster with thought…. then one day you let go completely and see the roller coaster was going all along by itself the whole time. Actually, having written that it's a pretty ordinary analogy but best i could do for now… To summarise: it's an unchecked assumption which creates a tendency for thought to put forth in the present moment images of a separate finite entity 'me' being responsible for experience.

4) I wanted to take some time to report on this in particular. How it feels changes with time, and whether or not habitual thinking starts trying to reassert the belief of a 'me'. The thought is easy to be captivated by - even hours of internal dialogue about a me. But it has less authority now - less grip or believability. I can get carried away by thought for a long time but do some shallow looking to see ' yep there is no me'. I'd even say a little too easy to see which is a source of scepticism and leads to a thought about a me may not having seen what he needs to see...

For a few days after the deep-looking where I saw the nothingness (though now it's just a memory...) I was in a bit of a flow-state… the feeling that control is an illusion, and a mild excitement for what is to come… a feeling that everything will be alright. Voice was more resonant as a result of the body's musculature letting go. Makes sense - if there's no self the body doesn't need to make the sensation of one by holding on like a constricting glove.

So, in summary - what is the lasting difference - that the sense of 'I' is not so convincing now. The lack of the 'why can't I get this no self business' thought. And that's all - since the pleasant flow state etc has all faded away.


4) Well I've pushed many times over the past few years and each time I couldn't get it, but each time I was more focussed... So I knew more accurately how to look this last time.

Second thing was I've tried enough times to know that I have a certain leverage over myself… a punching-power of focus which is strong some times and weak in other times. The best indicator for me when I have real focus and punching-power is when I find myself hating on others so to speak… the mind creating division and blaming this and that for whatever is going on. I have an inkling it's cyclical and it comes around for me every 3-4 months. Or I could be just imagining it.

Thirdly, I relaxed and stopped trying so much and just opened up to all the senses and one by one checked in on them (or checking in happened on it's own...) - what's doing the hearing? what's doing the feeling? Thought's ticking alonng on it's own ok good it can continue with that…. now what's doing the seeing? Where and what is the seer? And I pushed for that - almost an insistence. I felt a moment of it almost showing itself and I floated the intent one more time and saw the void. Body/mind relaxed after that. No angels descended with engraved scrolls sadly, but it was a cool experience in hindsight.

5) Decision: Without a me there can be no decision made by a me. Decision happens on it's own. I don't want to speculate beyond this point at this stage.

Intention: Desire without necessarily an accompanying thought within the field of experience.

Free Will: same as decision. Free will implies the ability to choose.

Choice and Control: Same as decision and free will.

I'm losing a bit of steam here. I'll finish off number 5) soon - typing more with my head than by tapping into present experience.


6) Losing the positive after-affects makes me wonder what the over deal is. Do I need to meditate, do I need to keep looking with real focus like i did a few days back? Do i need to be more vigilant with thought... i know this is all just thought about a 'me' character making choices and 'doing things' which flies in the face of what i was experiencing a few days back (it all seemed like everything was on automatic) - but just being honest as to what I'm feeling here right now.

What's the deal with fire and light (I haven't seen anything like that)? Seems to be a theme... also i didn't get 'clicking' or 'lightning bolts'.

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Freddi
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Re: Looking for some direction

Postby Freddi » Sun Jun 29, 2014 7:51 am

Losing the positive after-affects makes me wonder what the over deal is. Do I need to meditate, do I need to keep looking with real focus like i did a few days back? Do i need to be more vigilant with thought... i know this is all just thought about a 'me' character making choices and 'doing things' which flies in the face of what i was experiencing a few days back (it all seemed like everything was on automatic) - but just being honest as to what I'm feeling here right now.
Yes it is all just thoughts with a ‘me’ character doing the meditating, the looking, being vigilant. We know these thoughts, by now, don’t we, Brant? Are these thoughts believed? By whom? You have looked and seen that there is no ‘thing’ to get and more to the point, that there is no one to ‘get’ anything.
Sometimes such ‘selfing’ thoughts do come back and we wear them like a cloak, then we look and see that it was always just a cloak.
I did not ‘get’ clicking’ or ‘lightning bolts’ either. Seeing with clarity what has always been right under our nose is not an experience. Experiences come and go and are not the Truth. Are experiences allowed to come and go? Is it OK for Life to be as it always has been? Is it OK if liberation does not change a thing?
What people claim was their experience is just that. Stories. The Truth is what is happening right here, it cannot be in some kind of future attainment.

Warm wishes,

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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Brant
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Re: Looking for some direction

Postby Brant » Sun Jun 29, 2014 8:13 am

Are these thoughts believed? By whom
Exactly - who can do the believing - no-one - there are just thoughts.
Are experiences allowed to come and go?
Who or what can possibly disallow experiences. So yes they are allowed to come and go. No choice in the matter.


I'll take some time now. I am a little confused... have got it... haven't got it... what's to be got... by who... it all seems irrelevant somehow or not so important.

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Freddi
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Re: Looking for some direction

Postby Freddi » Sun Jun 29, 2014 9:15 am

Exactly - who can do the believing - no-one - there are just thoughts.
Yep ;-)
Who or what can possibly disallow experiences. So yes they are allowed to come and go. No choice in the matter.
Welcome to the backseat of this wild ride! The steering wheel was always a pretend one, like one on a magic roundabout car. Only now 'you' know.

Now could you bring your attention back to Question 5? Remember, look at what is alive, right in this moment, and answer from that place. Don’t forget to give examples from your everyday life.

Thanks!

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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Brant
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Re: Looking for some direction

Postby Brant » Mon Jun 30, 2014 10:50 am

I'll take some time now. I am a little confused... have got it... haven't got it... what's to be got... by who... it all seems irrelevant somehow or not so important.
I was wrong - there is still a strong belief in a me there. It's been a tough day or two after the highs of the previous few. I can only assume I had a bad-ass satori which gave me that clarity... and the physical changes which I'm still reaping the benefits from. But... sadly nothing has stuck.

Do people get satoris when looking to crack this? Is it an indicator I'm on the right path or am i doing it all wrong?


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