At the front door, waiting for you

[kenbok]

Hi, I'm Ken. I'm happy to guide you through this process. Only one guideline: honesty.

[1llusion]

Hi Ken,

I'd be happy to have you guide me.

Cheers,
Ben

[1llusion]

Maybe some background: I came across some audio material of E. Tolle along the way, which fascinated me and I realized I was not here and now. From there on, I realized my life to be stuck in some form of "mechanical functioning", which I wanted to get rid of. Thats how I started meditating regularly three years ago and reading about Zen a few months ago. Zen resonates with me, because it is about finding out for yourself. Lately, I have even joined a Dojo, however, was taken aback by the statement that "You need a teacher!", which contradicts my inherent belief that I can "do it" myself (now, thinking about it, there seems to be no contradiction: even with teaching, the doing must still be done).

Now I feel terribly confused, partly believing in the concept of the self as a concept, partly still being scared to really look at it.

[1llusion]

I'm no longer sure any help is needed, maybe we can do this testing thing?

In the meantime, I composed a little poem -- maybe someone can appreciate? :D

Code: Select all

It's called the "cosmic joke", but who am I to laugh?

Best of all,
B

[kenbok]

Hi B.

Has there ever been an "I" in any way, shape or form? What is "I"?

K

[1llusion]

No, there never has been an "I" in perceivable reality. "I" is a self-referential label, learned --probably-- by other bodies pointing to this body and calling it "you". "I" appears in language and --therefore-- in thought.

[kenbok]

ok b. Here are the final questions: (you can rehash your answer for 1)

1)Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2)Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3)How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4)What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5)Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

6)Anything to add?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[1llusion]

1) No, there is no separate entity and there never was.

2) There is the illusion of a separate entity, created, perpetuated and kept alife by language. It is impressed on the early brain by its surroundings, in particular in the child-parent relationship. It is then kept alife by refering to various aspects of the experience as experiences and actions of said separate entity.

3) There is confusion, feelings of "emptiness" / lightness in the head. Realization comes slowly, full of wonder. Thoughts beginning with "I", often followed by sneering comments on the lack of an "I". Sometimes stillness but sometimes wild ideas in the head, followed by a wish to return to silence. The seeing experience has changed somehow but there is no clear concept about what or how. Sometimes there are shivers, seemingly originating from the top of the head.

4) There were all those thoughts about thinking and where "the thinker" is. Then there was a brief realization that thinking is not thinking without being perceived, i.e. there is no separate thinker.

5) Sometimes there are thoughts that say "of course, like ... <pause>", but there is also a feeling that this is not true.

6) "This is the weirdest thing, ever." (A repeating thought). Oh, and it seems I am going a bit overboard with avoiding any "I" in this dialogue of "us". ;)

[kenbok]

5) Sometimes there are thoughts that say "of course, like ... <pause>", but there is also a feeling that this is not true.

Could you expand on this answer please? I restate the question, which is:

"Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? "

[1llusion]

Obviously "I" can't do anything, because "I" don't exist as a separate entity.

[kenbok]

Okay. So if I say now to you: who is typing and responding to kenbok on the LU forum, what is your response?

[1llusion]

No one is doing anything; typing happens.

[kenbok]

Great.

"I" is a self-referential label, learned --probably-- by other bodies pointing to this body and calling it "you".

Whose body is 'this'? Whose body is 'other's?

How do you view the past now? Or phrased differently, what is the past?

[1llusion]

They are just bodies. No one owns anything.

"The past" is a label for memories; so in this sense it is the content of thought but not real in itself.

[kenbok]

Waiting for any further questions from the other guides.