Hi - is Ilona or Elena able to guide me please?

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vinceschubert
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Re: Hi - is Ilona or Elena able to guide me please?

Postby vinceschubert » Thu Jun 19, 2014 12:42 am

'morning Elsa,
The problem is that Miss Elsa has been reading too many books and chased too many Gurus for too long and there was a concept around "enlightenment" and liberation and it was supposed to be a sudden realisation and bang, no more identification, no more suffering etc...it was yet another dream concocted by a me being chased by a fictitious me , blocking the truth !!
Ha yes. i too was looking for a 'sonic boom' followed by considerable 'magic'. There was both disappointment and relief at how 'ordinary' it actually was. Pop spirituality certainly has a lot to answer for.
It all just seems natural.
Ah beautiful. Yes, it is natural, just as joy and happiness is the natural, default state of Life-ing.
Now, there is no charge to that thinking!
Yes, it's amazing that we gave such power to (certain) thoughts.
There is a nice peacefulness and no effort for that to happen , it is just there. Lovely!!!! Thank you Vince so much. Can I stay on this forum a while longer and keep checking in day to day.. as long as it is not taking up your time?
Beautiful.
Yes, i will ask you some 'clean up' questions soon, just to make sure that there is no residual identification.
Do keep checking in each day, even if to just say everything is WonderFull.

love

vince
liberation starts with recognising some illusions

http://www.1ness.info

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Re: Hi - is Ilona or Elena able to guide me please?

Postby Elsa » Thu Jun 19, 2014 2:14 pm

Hi Vince,

Beautiful.
Yes, i will ask you some 'clean up' questions soon, just to make sure that there is no residual identification.
Do keep checking in each day, even if to just say everything is WonderFull.
In the moment today, so easy, just so easy, and yes the I thought that "getting it" was going to be some major shift happening here with bells, whistles and maybe even a bit of levitation thrown in as an extra bonus.
life is just living in a relaxing way. There were so many concepts about"awakening" but it's just a subtle shift into relaxation with no interest at all in concocting past or future thoughts and those that do float around are just matter of fact and short lived, that is what is being noticed today.
In the past there were books "I" read about people getting this and then laughingabout their discovery.... however, there were no feelings of laughter but more feelings of being in the grovoe of a record that keeps playing the present moment. Just a feeling of relaxation like a burden has been lifted, kind of surprised at the total simplicity.

"I" did laugh at myself as there has been addiction to seeking for sure... for many many years because I dam well had these concepts about what was supposed to happen , it would be so amazing and so euphoric - I would be "special" (that was my India days chasing the Guru of my "dreams) wow!!wanting to become self aware was like an aphrodisiac... and then there is this lovely gentle peaceful beingness that all those concepts dissolved into.... Thank you .... you opened up the way to "look" Vince, so brilliantly, and the great benefit of Elenas directions not to read anything or go to other sites while doing this process... because there arose a realisation of being "hooked" on other peoples experiences and how the mind kept forming up concepts of what it could be like for a "me". When there was no addiction for looking outwards and reading others stories, (total distraction!!!) there was only one place to go, and that was to look in, look in and keep looking in .... that is where it was seen that there was no I or Me that could be hurt, shamed, guilty, worried, frightened, etc... the I is just a phantom .... so, so subtle....and so thankful for the relief and the pressure gone... wow... this is so lovely thanks to you Vince, thank you for having the courage to look within and succeed so that you can help those of us who are tired of the seeking and to be freed from all that delusional suffering. Feelings of gratitude :-)

Blessings,
Elly

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Re: Hi - is Ilona or Elena able to guide me please?

Postby vinceschubert » Thu Jun 19, 2014 10:02 pm

wow... this is so lovely thanks to you Vince, thank you for having the courage to look within and succeed so that you can help those of us who are tired of the seeking and to be freed from all that delusional suffering. Feelings of gratitude :-)
No, thank you Elsa. It took no courage to be led by an obsession. These things just happen. i discovered that guiding others was a brilliant way of continuing a journey that is absolutely WonderFull.
i hope that you too will feel the call to pass this on (pay it forward) to the constant stream of seekers that arrive here at the 'gate'. It is a fantastic tool for 'deepening' (to guide) and there are tears of joy here as typing happens. Love flows.

vince
liberation starts with recognising some illusions

http://www.1ness.info

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Re: Hi - is Ilona or Elena able to guide me please?

Postby Elsa » Fri Jun 20, 2014 2:25 pm

Hi Vince

There is so much to be grateful for, and the settling into a lovely peacefulness continues.
Last night a friend was grieving, and the beautiful peacefulness that "I" am feeling never wavered. we sat together and only few words were spoken. There was no need to try to rescue or make her happy, there was no story of a me who felt sorry , empathy yes, and this deep relaxing into allowing her to open up wih only acceptance that she was tortured by her thinking... and it was ok.
At the end of the evening she said she felt peaceful and happy. She just completely "got" being in the moment.

Today there is continuous direct experiencing of being in the moment. Thinking about the future came up for a few short seconds, its just a brief "this looks like something fun to do next year" and then it's gone. It's no longer "will I do this? or is it better if I do that? and how do I know I am making the right decision... oh what if I don't like it and then I have to start again blah blah worry worry!!! Thinking happens, as is natural, but the obsessive type and the anxiety type of thinking, at this time are nowhere to be found.
That worrisome suffering thinking can't even be thought about for very long because it has been seen through that there is no I or me so these old conceptual thoughts are playing out like echo's and finding there is nothing to keep bouncing off any more. The walls have come down and the echos just keep radiating out into oblivion and then eventually silence.
There was , when reading of people who woke up to there being no I or me, stories of some people having recognised this natural state prior to awakening. This state was never evident in the past and there is nothing that is now recognised here as having any familiarity. Years and years of meditation has no similarity. This is just a lovely peaceful countenance and such an unexpected surprise. New.

Certainly , paying it forward to help others would be such a joyous and honourable offering.

Blessings,
Elly - ELSA!

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Re: Hi - is Ilona or Elena able to guide me please?

Postby vinceschubert » Fri Jun 20, 2014 10:13 pm

Aah, Elsa, That was a (tearful) joy to read. It's not the reason that i guide, but boy, it's a terrific 'by product'.
i will ask the 'clean up' questions now so that you can join others who have awakened and share the love.
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) "Describe your experience of the illusion of separate self, how it arises/disappears. Is that process always the same, or does it vary, and if so, how?"

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

love love

vince
liberation starts with recognising some illusions

http://www.1ness.info

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Re: Hi - is Ilona or Elena able to guide me please?

Postby Elsa » Sat Jun 21, 2014 11:42 am

Thank you Vince and a big hello!

the questions asked can be answered one by one over however long it may take as at this stage it is no known how long the answers will be haha!!! Great questions Vince, excellent inquiry.... so here goes
1) "Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?"
There is no separate entity, no I and no me... Sincere and direct looking began with the exercise Elena gave, and that was to just start writing every thought that came up in an hour and each time a line of thought appeared to write F for Feeling, I for Image S for sound etc next to it. (to see how this was done it is written in earlier dialogue of this thread). This was done over a few days and there was a noticing how a noise happened, and then thought came in and analysed it and then commented on it. Just a bunch of thoughts, sometimes like a mad person and jumping all over the place giving streams of commentary endlessly!! So there grew an awareness that there was only thought, bunches of thought talking to each other... but no I or me though at that stage was not evident where the I or me might be.
Looking deeper, there was seeing that the body is filled with muscle, blood, bone, organs and the head (where an I thought it resided) was also skull, brain tissue, blood... hellooooo... where is the I? . Thoughts rose up and disappeared, triggered by noise, sight, temperature, body processes etc. A pain in the leg and then the memory of that leg having pain prior starts a thought process about the leg and what "might" be wrong with it and then a feeling og "stress" as the thought began to be believed "what if "I" can't dance again.... what if "I" can't run again,

so then suspicion arose because Elly had no control over those thoughts and the "I" that was thought to be there , began to be questioned... could not be found ...and the realisation that it can't ever have been there began to become evident.

2) "Describe your experience of the illusion of separate self, how it arises/disappears. Is that process always the same, or does it vary, and if so, how?"[/quote]

The illusion of the seperate self is SO.. SO subtle and so tricky that there is is a need to share exactly how it was seen eventually when it was really looked at and how idiotic that image was. There will be personal accounts here however, they are necessary to explain the discovery. After doing the exercises with Elena ( Elena only replied every say 3 days so the typing of the thoughts as they came up kept happening in the spaces between to stay connected to the process... which was a blessing). Showering one night.. after that it was seen clearly that there was no I , the I just diminished and what was seen was the body, the hands washing the hair and an immense feeling of joy.... not an "out of body" experience but a differnt kind of seeing, like really seeing..... (oh so hard to explain). this was not written up in this thread because there was a change of guides happening and that "seeing" reverberated all night for a whole night and then settled down the next day. Have not had that experience before.
Near the end of this journey of seeking here, the seperate self was seen, like a clone copy of Elly that lived inside the body, one that held all the feelings, emotions and was the "energy" body that made Elly run or dance or retreat. It was what could be hurt or made decision.s This sounds crazy however this is what was seen in the grand finale, this clone of Elly was the interfacing body between the physical and the mental and SHE was believed to have been there since a child !!!!!!AMAZING how deeply ingrained that image was. It could be called a disassociated Elly who listened to those thoughts, and she thought those thoughts came from her brain and that she owned them.... Insane!!!!
This never ever occurred that the "phantom" Elly was just a projection of thought until investigation began here at the Gate with Vince. There was no arising and disappearing of that entitiy believed to be a "me"... it was always believed to be there, like a child has an invisible friend, they totally believe it is real. So everything that happened in life happened to a "me", every action came from a "me", when my dance teacher said "Elly, you can do this new dance, work hard at it" there was never a question that there was not a "me".."I " was the sole driver of this body brain, 24/7, I had to push a me, I was responsible for everything that an I did ....and it is so dam ludicrous that it was fictitious and caused so much suffering and stress!
The truth is there is no I or Me, this has been seen through and what a relief!!!! No such thing ever exsisted.

The next lot of questions shall be discussed tomorrow,

Blessings to you Vince :-)

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Re: Hi - is Ilona or Elena able to guide me please?

Postby Elsa » Sun Jun 22, 2014 1:42 pm

Hi Vince,
So grateful for the "cleaning up" as a slight push pull in awareness is happening:
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
OK. Relief was the the feeling, like an oppression lifted, an imagined total responsibility for "my" life and "my" job and "my" future etc etc went in an instant and that was so unexpected!. Prior to that , there was no knowledge of that responsibility for everything .....not being the normal disposition.
A feeling of naturalness and relaxing, it's still settling as conditioning happens and then this is realised and there is a relaxation .... It goes like this.....a "conditioned response", a contraction, then in the realisation there is no I or Me and an expansion/relaxation.

Volunteering for a local association is a passion and there was a workshop on at the weekend where learning to facillitate groups was the agenda for the day. It became evident that even though there is no me to do healing work on a "myself", there are others who are suffering and need help. In the group sessions it is so important to take people through the basic steps and there was a thought that "can "I" do this work now knowing what has been discovered... is integrity still there when one thing is know and another thing is taught..keeping people in the dream and suffering?. "I" am trained as a counsellor and was planning to do a Masters degree next year so there has been reflective thinking happening there as to whether it is even possible to consider this now... however, people need to be helped throught the levels. So there was a bit of conditioned reactiveness and a me attached to that thought and then the realisation again that there is no actual "me" anywhere and then relaxation into a peacefulness and everything felt ok, the decision will be made or not and it's OK. There is certainly a whole different perspective of life going on here so whatever is to be done will become evident. Life goes on, working, catching a train, driving the car. However, not so many thoughts, thoughts rise and fall, they don't go on and on and on into a future that was believed to exist before a few days ago. Thoughts just drop off and yes Vince, they are beginning to hum like the refrigerator

Before the dialogue:

Totally believed there was a me running the show though I didn't know where that me was
Felt verly responsible for myself, job, family and future
Had stress about the future
Thought that becoming "liberated" was going to change me so much I may not have been able to go to work or do normal things again.
Felt anxiety at times making decisions
Always switched on to a high dial in energy, sort of buzzing like it could never be used up.
Head foggy at times and often over thinking
Believing "my" thoughts, trying to be at peace, trying to slow down or change the thought processes, always being affected by my thoughts caused so much suffering in my life.

After the dialogue

Knowing now for certain that there is no I or Me at all and never was
There is a lovely calmness and relaxation ... nothing is a bother
there is no feeling of anxiety or panic
Thoughts are different, there is more "being" in the moment and way less activity of past or future thoughts
It's likened to once having peripheral vision at 360 degrees of all my past and a perceived future and now its direct experiencing of what is directly in front of me and the peripherals have disappeared , only appearing vaguely
if having to remember something. My attention is way more on what is being seen in the moment.. very lovely!
A feeling of lightness, initially a little disappointment that seeing through the illusion had no welcoming party of lights, trumpets or euphoria however, that has settled and there is no disappointment in this lovely easy feeling.
The words "A peace that surpasses all understanding" is a good description of this recovery.
Preferences for foods, etc have not changed, there was always a high force of energy coursing through this body, and even though there is still great energy, it is felt more like a softer surging.
This whole experience of "relaxing" is like flopping into a big comfy chair after walking up a steep hill for an hour, when reclining into that chair and feeling" ahhh, that feels really nice"..

Will answer another question tomorrow.
Blessings and most grateful,
Elly

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Re: Hi - is Ilona or Elena able to guide me please?

Postby Elsa » Mon Jun 23, 2014 1:41 pm

Hi vince

You asked me what was the last bit that pushed me over, made me look. Well it was the dialogue we had on I think it was early last week
Elsa wrote:I know I will have seen through this when I am no longer getting caught up in the story of a ME,
The issue is not that you don't get caught up, it's that this is Recognized. Whether it is recognized before, during or after, doesn't matter. The moment it is recognized, the identification is broken and the conditioning is weakened.
Elsa wrote:When I am not concerned about my future financially and getting hooked into the story of fear
.

Same again. The moment this is seen to be happening, it is aborted and brain re-wiring is instigated.
Elsa wrote:I know I will have seen through this when I will see the worry thoughts as just stories that no longer catch me. There are still a few "what if's" that are being believed, so when those thoughts are seen as just nothingness and they roll off me instead of sticking then there will be a freedom.
Yes, just seeing that there is no Self to stick to, changes the story of Elly. (to the story of Elsa, but now seen as just a useful story)
Elsa wrote:What will be different is no more suffering
Yes, suffering can be a trigger to recognize that Elly is lost in her story.
Elsa wrote:Like knowing there is no Santa Claus and not getting hooked back into thinking that there might be, or forgetting that there isn't.
Yes, we often refer to Santa Claus, but always with the knowing that he is a fictional character. We even pretend that he is real sometimes.
Elsa wrote:When I really and permanently get that thoughts are not real
Thoughts are real, it's their content that is just concept. (grin) It's that thoughts have no inherent validity. They may or may not be useful. i liken them to the sound of the refrigerator.
Elsa wrote:thoughts are not real, have no power
How can a thought have power. Only other thoughts say that a thought is to be believed.
Elsa wrote:When I really and permanently get that ... there is no significant "I" or "Me"
Hmm, you get this now, don't you ? Just because conditioning kicks in, doesn't mean that you don't get it. You always (eventually) SEE what happened, don't you ?
Elsa wrote:it is seen immediately
Some conditioning is very ingrained and some doesn't get triggered very often. The deep stuff is often to do with family of origin. i still see conditioning arise occasionally and my wife can trigger stuff daily. It is (later) welcomed as an opportunity to SEE it and let it go.
Elsa wrote:There will be an absence of fear and more of going with the flow, seeing that life is just living this body brain.
It will happen less and less intensely, but it is the result of conditioning, not because you haven't SEEn that the Self is illusion.

Back to today, this is the conversation vince, that really pushed the looking. This was contemplated very very deeply that night and the following day and like a house of cards, the I and Me collapsed and all the stories with them. Because you "normalised" the whole process, when there was thinking here of some amazing process that would take place when"awakened" your commentary made it so normal and natural that there was a realisation that "seeing"was already happening and then the I and me just let go - so light and easy. And there is so much gratefulness here for how you could see and articulate exactly what was happening. Great work vince :-)

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Re: Hi - is Ilona or Elena able to guide me please?

Postby Elsa » Tue Jun 24, 2014 1:46 pm

Hi vince,
You asked me to describe "decision"
I have seen clearly that there is no me, so who is there to make a decision......... looking for a decision maker at this very moment
No, no thinker, no decision maker, no me.
This is such a good thing to look at vince,
body feels cold, thought arises to go get something warm to put on
thought arises to put the heater on. body moves in the direction of the heater... the phone rings and then the phone is answered, automatic response. No I or me there to make a decision.

Reflection on some more challenging decisions and will report back tomorrow evening.
Blessings x
Elly

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Re: Hi - is Ilona or Elena able to guide me please?

Postby Elsa » Wed Jun 25, 2014 1:33 pm

Hi vince,

Tonights discussion is about intention!

Have been really looking into this.... what is intention to Elly?
Since seeing that there is no I or Me anywhere, then that can't be where intention comes from . Is there such a thing? Intention was something that was owned by a Me in the past... it is "My" intention, "I "have the intention to...When there is no "one" to own it... does it exist?
Lets look deeper....there is no intendee or no intender... having intention is just another thought in disguise because only a thought carries the content that it calls intention and makes it known to another thought that then contemplates the reason for doing something.
Does that make sense?
an "I" would think it intends to do something.. however, there is no I so that is just life doing what it does, living the body, moving the body, life life - ing... does it have an intention? ithat is just another thought.
Blessings,
Elly

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Re: Hi - is Ilona or Elena able to guide me please?

Postby Elsa » Thu Jun 26, 2014 12:47 pm

Hi vince,
Free Will.... Once again, there is no one to be willing anything, no I or Me so who or what would have free will?, it doesn't make any sense any more.
There is nothing or no one that can decide, intend or have free will to do anything, there is no I or me operating here so free will does not exist.
In the past there was an I who was a great advocate for free will, however, when looking happened, it was discovered that there is no "I" or "me" or "personality" or "ego" or anything that is doing anything. Life does it all and there is no comprehension about what that is, if life has free will or what, and there is no one to even be bothered wanting to know.
It's freeing enough to know that "I" am not running this show.
Blessings,
Elly.

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Re: Hi - is Ilona or Elena able to guide me please?

Postby vinceschubert » Fri Jun 27, 2014 8:19 am

You are doing well Elsa.
Just work through the rest of the questions.
Certainly, if there is anything particular that you want to explore.... ?

love love

vince
liberation starts with recognising some illusions

http://www.1ness.info

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Re: Hi - is Ilona or Elena able to guide me please?

Postby Elsa » Fri Jun 27, 2014 2:37 pm

Hi vince

About Choice .....

Who chooses?... what chooses. looking has shown cleary that there is no I or Me, typing is happening , the body is upright, seeing, hearing, breathing are all happening without any direction or effort. Amazing!!
So what is choice. Choice is something that happens - choosing happens, but not from a me because there is no me to make a choice.There is no I to choose and yet choosing happens, isn't that a wonderful mystery?
Why is it some people "seem" to have control of their lives while others don't ?(all conceptual of course) There is no answer except that life is choosing , no "body" or no "one" can make a choice. An "I" can think it would like to go to a certain movie, but on examination of thoughts as they rise and fall, it is clearly seen that there is no thinker of the thoughts, the thoughts just come and go ... and choosing is also a content of a thought... thinking about making a choice happens, and if there is an "I" believed to be doing the choosing, it can become a stressful exercise and a "trying" to choose happens, and an "I" believes it has ownership of that choice making, however, the choosing is being done without an I or a me. Choosing just happens .... easy!

Blessings,
Elsa

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Re: Hi - is Ilona or Elena able to guide me please?

Postby Elsa » Sat Jun 28, 2014 10:51 am

Hi vince,

About control...

There is no I or me to control anything.
If there was an I that controlled my thoughts then I would never have a negative thought.
There is no I that controls my body processes, nor my reactions, nor breathing, hearing and seeing.
There is no I here that tells the 200+ muscles it takes to pick food up off the plate using a fork, raising it to the mouth and eating it and then swallowing it. It all happens automatically without a me to tell the body/brain to do anything. Now this is also true for everybody else, so think about that.... it is ludicrous to even try to control anyone else as that is impossible..... there is no I to think thoughts, they just happen automatically,
While observing thoughts for a few days, there was a sensation felt in the body first and then thoughts labeled that and expressed those thoughts as "I am hungry" "I am thirsty", when in actual fact without the labels, thirst was happening and hunger was happening, nothing or no one was making that happen because there isn't anyone there in the first place , but an "I " had believed it lived inside this body and controlled most things, until it got to the gate and really looked at that false belief and realised that life was just happening all by itself.
Blessings
Elsa

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Re: Hi - is Ilona or Elena able to guide me please?

Postby Elsa » Sun Jun 29, 2014 4:54 am

Hi vince,
You asked "what makes things happen"?
All I know, when looking to find an I or a Me is that they don't exist.The body exists, the brain exists, they are real, but once I thought an I or a Me was running the show and when looked at directly, it is obvious that there are no such things - I and Me are just another concept , another thought believed to be real.
So what makes things happen?

(I) will attempt to put the following into a bullet point list or list, not sure what this is going to look like when it is submitted.. gotta try!)
  • eyes close..... there is no thinking about how many muscles to interact to make the eyes close, it happens in a split second
  • Sneezing is an involuntary action in the body, as well as yawning
  • The heart keeps pumping away by itself, there is no instruction on how to do that coming from a me
  • If there is a cut on my skin, the blood will come rushing to that area with an intention to seal the wound and heal it..... dam fascinating!
  • Thousand upon thousands of vital processes are happening in the body every second of every day....and no instruction comes from a "me' or an "I"... marvellous!
At this point it could be said that to know how that all works doesn't matter and there is a feeling here that since seeing there is no "I" or "Me" here, that is the end of the story. Is that a cop out vince? What is there left to know? it's just life life ing and to make a story up is just that, creating more concepts. Just as an eye cannot see itself, maybe life lifing cannot see itself, however, looking around can be seen all aspects of this life force in action. No body can know because there is no one here.. its just all life force doing it's thing and no matter how it is looked at, the obvious is right here in this body and brain, it's all happening spontaneously and yet so succintly . There is nothing random about the thousands of body processes going on and there is nothing random about how the planets sit majestically in space, for centuries and centuries for however long, this could be contemplated for a lengthy time and the result may be "it can't be known".. for this is exactly where "i" am at right now, haven't got a clue and there is no need for me to know.

Blessings,
Elsa


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