In need of a "rough" guide

[ElPortal]

Hi Alex,

Yes, hot here too. We use a small Honeywell fan at night: very quiet and just keeps the air moving.

Nothing changed but everything is now seen from a different perspective.

Yes, this is it: a change in perspective. Seeing that "I" am not what "I" thought "I" was. Nothing has changed and everything has changed.

This starts a whole new journey. Not for anyone, not to anywhere, but the endless desire to 'self improve' is seen through as 'pretend'. It can be taken up again, but only as a game (like having a piece eg racing car, or hat, on a Monopoly board. Do you have the game Monopoly in Italy? You know what I mean? If so, I have found this to be an excellent analogy: children get sooo taken up in the game, Dad is only half involved because he would rather be watching sport on TV etc etc, someone starts to gain more properties then they get really involved and the game gets really, really important to them).

It is not a stable sensation yet (today almost never) but it is there. It had been always there.

Yes, always there. There can be a relief, and some disappointment (no magic carpet experience). Why would the sensation be stable? It can be crazy. There can be moments of forgetting, and rage. Emotions can be much more raw and changeable. Especially in the initial stages.

Let me know what is coming up for you. Whether you have any issues you would like to raise. Whether you feel ready to look at the summary questions yet. Much of the residual stuff can be looked at afterwards (I will be available, and others).

Cheers

Mark

[nemecsek]

Mark, in this moment there is a lot of confusion but not a bad one. It is like a cargo ship whose load moved and need to find a new balance.

I don't feel disappointed nor elated. Sometimes it is like watching a movie, seeing my body acting without any intervention. Just observing the speech is fascinating.
Even observation changed: it is no more the "I choose to observe " but more "observation is happening now".
There is this "absence" of something that's always been apparently there and not the need to fill the gap.
Some of the cryptic stuff I read has now a meaning ("you don't exist", "nothing changes and everything changes", etc)

Even my fundamental questions have changed their texture. What was a doubt and an obstacle is now just a mild curiosity.
Is there free will? When we began this chat that (rational) NO meant I could relax from being so responsible for any problem in the world. Now it means that all is what has to be. I cannot imagine if I could keep this equanimity if a child is going to die, but it is like a veil has been removed.

Why meditation is giving such a distorted message, often indirectly teaching you to search for a bliss or the union with God? Is a blind guiding blinds?

Why teachers are not pushing the fact that self growth itself can easily become a false idol?

I read the episode of Buddha's illumination, when he saw the series of his incarnations, and I was so hit by it that I was sure it was the final stop, the irrevocable sign the target was reached. Why is there so much difference between what it's my experience and his? Has his message being distorted by blinds in the course of centuries?

By the way, I don't really care to find an answer to these questions. I am not feeling in crisys as I read you can feel when the truth is recognized, nor doubting that I am just parroting. I didn't lose interest in life. I didn't enjoyed the "cosmic laugh ". I feel a lot of acceptance but can explode when my kids behave bad (and I am also pleased by this human/mechanical reaction).

I would like to reread the Gateless book and the one by Ciaran to see what was so obscure at the first read, and what is now obvious. I believe it would be safe now, but I wait for your approval. You know better than me.

There are not real issues now. I would like to give a look around to see if there are any.
Ready for the summary questions.

As I told you I'll be abroad from June 15 th to the 27 th, and don't know how often there will be access to the net.

Thank you Mark. Your help head been and is yet invaluable.
I cannot imagine who could have donated so much attention, patience and time like you did to me.
Will you ever tell me something about you?

Good night
Alex

[ElPortal]

Hi Alex,

You are welcome.

I suggest that we deal with the final questions - from your 'own authentic' experience - and then afterwards, once those are clear, that you re-read the books if feeling moved to do so.

The questions are not at all complicated. Please answer them not from intellectual or theoretical answers, but just honestly and openly from your present experience:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
 
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now. 
 
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
 
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? 
 
5) Describe as best you can how deciding, intending, choosing and controlling events in Life happens. What are you responsible for? Do you make anything happen? Please try to describe the process as best you can, even if gropingly. Don't forget to give some practical examples from your everyday experience (even if there is no real 'you'!) eg talk about a couple of simple choices and actions made each day.

6) Anything to add?

Answer them all together or a couple of a time, whichever feels right. There may be further questions about the answers.

Once we have clear answers, you will be invited to various support groups for those who have seen through the illusion. These are invaluable for sharing experiences and 'finding our feet' with others who are seeing the same.

Yes, Alex, then you can ask me all you like!

Warmly,

Mark

[nemecsek]

Hi Mark.
Almost ready to leave for 2 weeks abroad, my son is sick and vomiting.
The strange is (compared to my usual behavior) that I feel very calm inside. It is what it must be. It is not possible to push anything. I feel "doped" but very attentive and active at the same time.

Please let me use "I" for the sake of explanation, even if it is not for sure the self that I believed to be me a few weeks ago.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No, there isn't and never was. It is crazy but it never was.
It is now obvious that I already "saw" that the self is a fake but for some reasons I walked on believing that the target was something else: years ago I began to see my hands or listen my automatic talk "from inside myself" but without a guide it was frankly impossible to understand what I was experiencing. Your help has been invaluable for helping me to remove the layers of expectations and accumulated knowledge.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience

I know it is impossible to believe it, but I'm forgetting how it was to have this invasive voice in the head full time.
I will try to answer this next time.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?

What changed most is acceptance, the deep knowledge that everything is what it must be. I front problems that would have been little tragedies a few months ago and "ah? ok..." is the only answer that comes to mind. I now know what it means to follow the flow because there is nothing to oppose or fight.

Life is now not lazy or meaningless as I believed it could become but it is a kind of "activity without complain". I would add "involuntary activity" because it looks like it performs by itself without any intervention. It is like to observe somebody who knows what to do when it is necessary, the kind of person I would have dreamed to become.

By the way, there were some moments in the last couple of days when a thought came to remind that this phase is probably momentary, a high that will be followed by a low, a cycle till the new balance is found: even this thought is accepted and answered with "ah, is it so? ok, we will see...".

There is surprise for the speed of the change that was instantaneous.

The change has been in perspective only. I believed to be Alex which could act and think (with some doubt on free will as you surely remember). Now it is obvious that there is life acting and producing thoughts, "Alex" being just one of them.

And, as I already wrote yesterday, even observation changed: it is no more the "I choose to observe " but more "observation is happening now". There is this "absence" of something that's always been apparently there and not the need to fill the gap.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

It happened when I understood what it means to look honestly and the list of resistances came out.
I didn't ask you to explain better what you meant with "the thought of..." etc so I misunderstood the process.

If I could change this process to make it easier next time, I would add examples about the honest look, I would make some tests to see if the "student" understood how to do it.
And as a guide I would strongly (Ciaran-style) refuse explanations which obviously come from second hand knowledge. You were not enough "rough" in the beginning and my display of knowledge has been... pathetic.

Time to go.
Good night.
Thank you Mark.
Alex

[nemecsek]

Mark, there is a post scriptum.
I reread what I just wrote, and it is too intellectual.
I tried to convey the feelings of the last couple of days but my post really lacks the power to describe them.

Be patient and let me try again tomorrow after a night sleep.
Alex

[ElPortal]

If I could change this process to make it easier next time, I would add examples about the honest look, I would make some tests to see if the "student" understood how to do it.
And as a guide I would strongly (Ciaran-style) refuse explanations which obviously come from second hand knowledge. You were not enough "rough" in the beginning and my display of knowledge has been... pathetic.

"Be patient and let me try again tomorrow"

..."be rough with me"/be "patient with me"/be'Ciaran-style'

Oh REALLY? Is there anything there that can decide how to be guided? Anything here that can decide how to guide?
There may be the appearance of being guided, the appearance of guiding... but what is really happening here other than Life happening as it happens, perfectly, crazily, not answerable to anyone....?

Have a deep look, Alex.

[nemecsek]

Of course you are right, Mark.
What I wrote is purely intellectual and reflects "my self", not how life chose to develop in me.
I was writing about acceptance without noting I was not accepting what happened. Funny, isn't it?

It is obvious (did you see how often I'm using this word lately?!?) that this path is the one to follow, even if apparently looks longer than necessary: if I found you instead of Ciaran it means this was what was going to happen.

Thank you for letting me note it.
I will try to answer the questions later, because now (a son vomiting, a daughter looking for attention and a plane to catch tomorrow morning at 5am) there is some stuff to do :-)
Have a nice day.
Alex

[ElPortal]

Yes, hilarious.

Have fun, dear Alex, with vomiting, attention, planes, trains, automobiles.. and answering questions when there is opportunity, sooner or later. Maybe even some relaxing?

Much warmth (33º in fact).

:-)

Mark

[ElPortal]

PS Once I have your replies to all the questions (whether sooner or later), our protocol here is to put the dialogue to other guides. Either I or they may have further questions for clarification.

Cheers

Mark

[nemecsek]

Hi Mark.
I'm jumping between Berlin and Leipzig. The full time job to take care of my children (my wife is working) is taking its toll, and even if I had the possibility to write you before I didn't, because of laziness, tiredness and confusion.
I'm not yet ready to answer the questions.

In these days I'm seeing myself a lot from outside (or inside). There are the experiences of frustration, satisfaction, delusion, lust, laziness, commotion, etc and they are seen as extraneous, something alien happening by chance "to my body".

Some episodes created havoc inside, given the fact that sensations are so raw at the moment.
The first had been a chess game played with a child. After his father came to help him the embarrassment for a possible lost game has been overwhelming (likely embarrassing has been the relief when I won the game).

While watching the football game between Italy and Costarica: even if I NEVER watch a game (I'm not interested in football at all), the fact that MY football team was losing started a mind fight. On one side I HAD to support them because I AM ITALIAN, on the other side there was the idea to support the Costaricans because it is nice when the little wins against the big. I was observing the fight and the "disease " it was bringing with it. It was like watching two kids bitching and fighting to get a balloon.

Again, today I was at a party, lots of people, and for some seconds I could see life that was expressing itself through their various behaviors.

It is confusing, Mark, and this confusion makes me unstable on my legs.
There is the expectation "to see it for sure so it cannot be unseen". I can "see " it again without problems but at the same time I cannot describe it also approximately.
I don't understand what brings this discomfort.

What is sure? There is nothing behind the label "me ", and my body is "lived" and acts according something that's not under the control of "Alex". That's obvious.
There is also the need to put this experience into a logical scheme, and this becomes a further resistance.

Have you got any comment on this, before going back to the questions?
When you gave me the questions, a part of me was screaming (and is screaming even now) "I am not ready! I need to be sure of what I saw".
If I'm seeing, why is there this fear?
There is the assumption that being there the fear, it means I didn't see yet, as seeing would dissolve the fear...

Thank you for your precious guidance.
Alex

[ElPortal]

Hi Alex

Thanks for the update, and for sharing these experiences.

Ah expectations again. What it 'should' be like. So seeing through the illusion of a separate self should mean emotional flat-lining, should it? (do you understand that term?)

Maybe it will be good to go back and notice any expectations and preconceptions about what seeing through the illusion might feel like. Look at those expectations and consider where they come from (eg meditation traditions, the desire for less stress)? What do they bring with them (an escapism from the thrills and spills of life, for example)?

Look at whether this Liberation is about no more feelings (monk floating around on mat with glazed expression in permanent peace), never getting caught out or losing temper, or is it about living life to the full with all the emotional thrills and spills... but for no-one?

Many actually report that feelings get stronger, more visceral, more animal, more physical, after seeing. ... not weaker. In fact the post-seeing ride can take all sorts of forms, and it can, and does, change. Life can do what it likes, and even if there is no 'Alex' or no 'Mark' it will feel authentically 'Alex'-shaped or 'Mark'-shaped. It will NOT be swapping Alex for a different or better person (*insert names of role-models*).

Re the football game and the chess game: at some point after not very long it was probably noticed that the emotions were happening, identification was happening? So, is SEEing about never feeling any identification anymore, or is it about seeing it when it happens? Is it about no more feelings, or about there being no-one real there to own them?

Let me know what comes up, when you notice identification as identification, illusion as illusion, when you just notice the physical sensations and energies passing through.

Cheers

Mark

[nemecsek]

Thank you Mark for your quick answer.
A lot is clear after reading your last post. It is like there is some forgetting mechanism at work.

There is the main delusion, being the gate "only" this.
At the same time these raw emotions keep me off balance. I've never been able to manage them properly, and now they are free to create havoc.

Liberation is not going to make me a better person, that's for sure. It will not flat-line my emotions, nor give me any superpower. That's also clear.

I missed completely the point when I described the chess and football games: THERE WAS observation of the feelings and thoughts. There were two levels: the first, self based, was the one judging what was happening, what I described you. But I forgot that there was another level, observing all in an unobtrusive way, just there. I got it now after you made me note it.

About feelings getting stronger, it is what is happening now to me. They are amplified, as it happens with reactions.
It is about observing (without observer).
It is so.... easy, and so impossible to describe! Obvious when mind is out of the way, invisible when the illusion is active.

Life can do what it likes, and even if there is no 'Alex' or no 'Mark' it will feel authentically 'Alex'-shaped or 'Mark'-shaped

Perfectly clear now. Thank you.

I go now, family waiting. I will adjourn as soon as possible, probably tomorrow.
Cheers
Alex

[ElPortal]

Hi Alex,

Well seen!

Looking forward to your other answers, when you are ready.

Cheers

Mark

[nemecsek]

Hi Mark.
I'm back. No answers yet, but a little extra diary after my trip.

As I have been spending a couple of weeks in Germany it has been interesting to observe what happened during highly stressful times.

The ordinary day comprised 8-11 hours wandering around Berlin, jumping in and out metro trains with a stroller and two kids 2 and 5 year old while the mother was working.

I not only survived this epic mission but there was something new in my days, an underlying sensation that all has a reason to be like it is. It was like to observe a movie. I never experienced something so peculiar, but really it was like to observe somebody else's life.

The very best did happen yesterday, when I and the kids (my wife had an extra day in Berlin) had to fly back. The day begun with a message from Easyjet saying there was a strike at the airport. The immediate reaction: nothing, ok, we will see. Then a number of little troubles that with two kids to move around for 11 consecutive hours become huge: elevators out of service, heat, the wrong moment for urgent pee, electronic timetables out of service at the last train change, a fight with a steward and a hostess in front of all the people in the plane for my right to go to the toilet with both kids together, an epic failure on escalators while trying to reach the kids that were too tired to move, the parking ticket not working at 10pm and the kids wailing, a couple criticizing me for abandoning the kids while paying the ticket (I asked them "please shoot me!").
Every episode has been experienced in a very ambivalent mode: on one side blasphemies and screams (a lot more than a few months ago), on the other acceptance and... fun for observing me like this. Foolish, isn't it?

And there was... peace. Yes, even after the fight inside the plane.
It was not Alessandro, eager to complain about misfortune: it was "nobody" just experiencing what happened while at the same time venting its jinx. Like in a movie. Like to be disembodied. I cannot describe it better yet (that's why I have problems with the questions).

It looks like the rantings of the internal voice subsided almost completely. My body behaves like before, but it is not... me. I AM NOT.

There have been a LOT of moments when raw sensations were experienced. Rage against the rigidity of rules, against the misbehaving kids, against the heat or the excessive cold. Even deep empathy when an ambulance in emergency run into a car at a crossroad a couple of meters from us: the damage was great but nothing to the people. I couldn't resist and cried while walking away pushing the stroller. I was crying not because of life's injustice but for the people watching the show, for the woman who didn't stop, for the passengers for being alive, for the beauty of the moment that could have easily caused also my or my children's death...

There have been peaks of tiredness or stress, but it was like following the flow. It went deep inside the idea that something happens because it is like this. The car accident was not bad or good, but has been. Everything had to be like it has been.
I feel emotional even now while I see my hands writing it.

Time to sleep.
Good night
Alex

[ElPortal]

Hi my friend,

Good to hear from you. Wow, what a beautiful description of a slice of day just happening with all its drama.. but for nobody! Loved the spontaneity and honesty of this.

When you answer those questions, no need to find 'the perfect answer', something special or 'deeply insightful' Just answer like you described the day in Berlin. From what feels real in the moment, with that same spontaneity.

Then we can look at whatever comes up from that.

Cheers

Mark