I would like a guide please.

[dian]

Hi Dianne.

dian wrote:Not to stop the thoughts but to notice when the thoughts come in.
Ah, ok. Two things arise with this. Firstly, when you say that this is something that you are "trying to do", There is the implication that it is something that you can do.
Do you have the actual control to do this at will ?
Even knowing that I don't control my thoughts, my body movements, or my choices and a lot of the time with this exercise. This I find hard I know I dont have control but who is deciding to do this exercise and who is noticing and chuckling is a hard hurdle to overcome.

Getting lost in thought is something that has probably been happening for many years (almost all of your life) so it is a conditioned response. That is the brain is wired for it to happen and not wired for it to not happen.
By "wired", i am referring to neuronal pathways that are chains of synaptic connections. These pathways will atrophy with lack of use and new pathways will establish when something new is learned.
Try doing this;
The Recognition that you have automatically entered into the expression of thought content will happen either after it happens, during the happening, or just before it is about to happen.
Whenever that Recognition dawns on you, celebrate it with a laugh.
That laugh can be anything from an inward chuckle to a full bellied guffaw. Whatever it is, the important thing is that you feel your stomach contract.
This has the effect of flooding your system with oxytocin (anti-stress hormones) and will instantly change your mood. It has the added effect of aborting the 'completion satisfaction' of the old way of being which encourages the atrophy of the old synaptic connections that made up that neuronal pathway. Further it establishes new connections and pathways and so soon these are the automatic responses.
It doesn't matter when the Recognition occurs. Celebrate it !

Have a look at this video for more in this;
https://www.dropbox.com/s/mskv8uxmnmf2f ... _Being.mp4

do respond with your experiencing of this.

Hi Vince,
Have been doing the exercise for a couple of days now. When I remember I find I am chuckling a lot of the time usually one after the other after the other. Then of course hours will go by and the exercise is forgotten and then noticing will happen and it can be in the middle of anything just walking or cooking. Really brought home the fact that thinking stories take me away constantly from the present moment. I always thought I was a clumsy person always tripping over or cutting myself but now I think it's because I'm just not present a lot of the time.

Have seen the video before but enjoyed watching it again. Persistence seems to be the key to change so will continue observing and chuckling at myself. Having said that everything is just happening without me controlling it so who is it that is persisting. Persistence is just thought and thought is happening without me doing it. So a thought appears 'notice that the mind is off in a story you should chuckle now'.

kind regards
Dianne

[vinceschubert]

Ah Dianne, that was beautiful.
Tears of joy arose as i was reading your last post.

i take it by your tone, that you are not experiencing any resistance to what arises (as life-ing) from the great mystery.
Would you say that there is a welcome acceptance, a surrender to whatever is presented as experiencing ?

love

vince

[dian]

Hi Vince

Ah Dianne, that was beautiful.
Tears of joy arose as i was reading your last post.

i take it by your tone, that you are not experiencing any resistance to what arises (as life-ing) from the great mystery.
Would you say that there is a welcome acceptance, a surrender to whatever is presented as experiencing ?

Sorry Vince didn't mean to give you the impression that I was through the gateless gate. The exercise you said to do is still being done ie chuckling when I realize I have been lost in thought again. I was just letting you know how much chuckling is involved as I catch myself off in another thought story.

Persistence seems to be the key to change so will continue observing and chuckling at myself. Having said that everything is just happening without me controlling it so who is it that is persisting. Persistence is just thought and thought is happening without me doing it. So a thought appears 'notice that the mind is off in a story you should chuckle now'.

This was me thinking through your question on actual control in the quote below.

dian wrote:Not to stop the thoughts but to notice when the thoughts come in.
Ah, ok. Two things arise with this. Firstly, when you say that this is something that you are "trying to do", There is the implication that it is something that you can do.
Do you have the actual control to do this at will

Sat with it for a while and this is what came up but it's still intellectual.


kind regards
Dianne

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Dianne.

Sorry Vince didn't mean to give you the impression that I was through the gateless gate.

It was the story here, about your tone that that produced the euphoria.
You didn't answer the questions.

Would you say that there is a welcome acceptance, a surrender to whatever is presented as experiencing ?

Let's put this another way; Is there anything that is not concept, other than This that IS (what the label 'current experiencing' points to) ?
..and When you notice current experiencing, is it already (milliseconds) in the past, and now it is an experience, a memory, just thoughts ?

love

vince

[dian]

Hi Vince,
I really did misinterpret the previous post. I'm back on track now.

You didn't answer the questions.
vinceschubert wrote:Would you say that there is a welcome acceptance, a surrender to whatever is presented as experiencing ?

I would say 'as all is just happening without a me whatever is experienced is accepted or it wouldn't be happening. Not sure about surrender though the 'I' doesn't seem to want to go out without a fight :)

Let's put this another way; Is there anything that is not concept, other than This that IS (what the label 'current experiencing' points to) ?

'This that Is' is all that is happening all else is just concepts or beliefs with no structure underneath.

..and When you notice current experiencing, is it already (milliseconds) in the past, and now it is an experience, a memory, just thoughts ?

Yes when I notice anything happening whether it be a thought, a scene from a window, an action of picking up a cup its always noticed after the fact. That makes it a memory which is just a thought.

thanks for all your patience Vince
kind regards
Dianne

[vinceschubert]

Morning Dianne.
Gee, you say that you are not through the gate,(which i accept) but boy, you say all of the right things.
How will you know when you are 'through' ?

Not sure about surrender though..

This appears to be an intellectual answer.
Let me ask it this way; Have you noticed an absence of frustration, (where previously there would have been), a willingness to accept what life presents ? Not at all ?, Occasionally ?, Frequently ?, Always ?.

the 'I' doesn't seem to want to go out without a fight

Although i get what you mean, it is an opportunity...
Look and see if you can find any sensations associated with it.
Is there a sensation of resistance anywhere ?
Is there stress anywhere at the idea of you being liberated ?
Can you find fear anywhere when you say "i am through the gate" ?

love

vince

[dian]

Gee, you say that you are not through the gate,(which i accept) but boy, you say all of the right things.
How will you know when you are 'through' ?

I think trumpets will blow and angels will sing. Just kidding I'll have to let you know when it happens. I gave up reading books on nonduality when I started this but I do go in and read the archives at Liberation unleashed and it seems once it's known it's known and that's not how I feel.

dian wrote:Not sure about surrender though..
This appears to be an intellectual answer.
Let me ask it this way; Have you noticed an absence of frustration, (where previously there would have been), a willingness to accept what life presents ? Not at all ?, Occasionally ?, Frequently ?, Always ?.

I would say occasionally and that it depended quite a lot on what life was presenting.

dian wrote:the 'I' doesn't seem to want to go out without a fight
Although i get what you mean, it is an opportunity...
Look and see if you can find any sensations associated with it.

Is there a sensation of resistance anywhere ?

I don't notice resistance. Sometimes a wanting this so badly that I want to put life on hold while I do this.

Is there stress anywhere at the idea of you being liberated ?

There is no stress at the idea of liberation.
The stress comes when I'm just looking. I look for an 'I' and then wonder who is doing the looking? Is there an I to look for and an I doing the looking? I just end up confused.

Can you find fear anywhere when you say "i am through the gate" ?
I don't feel any fear at those words. There is a feeling that saying those words will bring a big smile to my face.

kind regards
Dianne

[vinceschubert]

Morning Dianne,

it seems once it's known it's known

Yes, that certainly is the case. But here's an interesting thing. Most people who 'gate' go through one or more 'episodes' of doubt. They are plagued by thoughts.
This is because liberation is so 'ordinary', so simple. "nothing has changed, but everything is different".
The answer is just as simple. Direct Experience.
A quick look before the seduction of thought for that 'I' and certainty is restored.
It appears that you are having doubts before 'gating'.

I look for an 'I' and then wonder who is doing the looking? Is there an I to look for and an I doing the looking? I just end up confused.

Looking happens. Is there an I that tells the heart to pump blood ?, or that controls what thought is the next to arise ? Is it more than thought that says there has to be "someone", a who that looks. When you automatically avoid an obstacle while walking, is it not the organism that orchestrates that ?

I would say occasionally and that it depended quite a lot on what life was presenting.

That will accelerate and intensify. It it a case of brain rewiring. Keep with the celebrating of Recognition (laughing)

I don't notice resistance. Sometimes a wanting this so badly that I want to put life on hold while I do this.

Ah, yes. i was the same. It it that wanting that will get you there. It is also that wanting that is the reason that you are not getting there.
For vince, the portal that opened the gate was not the illusion of a Self. (that was obvious, once through), it was
'THIS IS IT'
That which is real (experiencing) is everything. It IS (current reality)
Whatever it is. THIS is IT.
This IS
Thinking, wanting, nothing can change it (because it is already done and dusted. Finished)
..and the wanting. Wanting what is not here (now) was simply scratching the itch. ..and what happens when we continually scratch the itch ? It gets red and sore. And itchy.
Only by accepting that it will still be itchy until it heals and accepting that it is just the way it is, will the need to scratch it eventually go away.

love (lots of it)

vince

[dian]

dian wrote:it seems once it's known it's known
Yes, that certainly is the case. But here's an interesting thing. Most people who 'gate' go through one or more 'episodes' of doubt. They are plagued by thoughts.
This is because liberation is so 'ordinary', so simple. "nothing has changed, but everything is different".
The answer is just as simple. Direct Experience.
A quick look before the seduction of thought for that 'I' and certainty is restored.
It appears that you are having doubts before 'gating'.

Yes that sounds like me always did go the opposite way to anyone else.

dian wrote: I look for an 'I' and then wonder who is doing the looking? Is there an I to look for and an I doing the looking? I just end up confused.
Looking happens. Is there an I that tells the heart to pump blood ?, or that controls what thought is the next to arise ? Is it more than thought that says there has to be "someone", a who that looks. When you automatically avoid an obstacle while walking, is it not the organism that orchestrates that ?

That seems to be the case not enough time to tell the muscles to stop and turn themselves in another direction all happens automatically.

dian wrote:I would say occasionally and that it depended quite a lot on what life was presenting.
That will accelerate and intensify. It it a case of brain rewiring. Keep with the celebrating of Recognition (laughing)

You notice I said it depended quite a lot on what life was presenting, it's always easy to accept the good stuff.

dian wrote:I don't notice resistance. Sometimes a wanting this so badly that I want to put life on hold while I do this.
Ah, yes. i was the same. It it that wanting that will get you there. It is also that wanting that is the reason that you are not getting there.

No wonder this is so hard - dammed if you want it too much and dammed if you don't it want enough.

For vince, the portal that opened the gate was not the illusion of a Self. (that was obvious, once through), it was
'THIS IS IT'
That which is real (experiencing) is everything. It IS (current reality)

So how did you take that from an intellectual experience to the knowing of it.

Thankyou for telling me what it was like for you Vince.

kind regards
Dianne

[vinceschubert]

Morning Dianne,

that sounds like me always did go the opposite way to anyone else.

Ha, everybody is unique. There are some things in common but absolutely everybody expresses their own response to their own individual conditioning.

I said it depended quite a lot on what life was presenting, it's always easy to accept the good stuff.

Oh yes. i am training a new puppy at the moment, and she is perfectly able to sit and stay when there are no distractions, but when there are other dogs around it's a different story. So we just practice with mild distractions at first and then intensify them as we get better. Now with your Recognition of being lost in story, we don't get to choose our situation. What happens is the more intense the 'distraction', the further into it we get before Recognition occurs. Sometimes much later - even hours or a day. Have you noticed that you are Seeing it happening sooner ? You will get to the point where you see that it was about to happen, and it will abort before starting.

No wonder this is so hard - dammed if you want it too much and dammed if you don't it want enough.

Ha, yes. But do we control this wanting ?
We can observe it, (if that happens) but is there a choice to have a desire or not ?
Is this just like thoughts where we are helpless to stop them ?
You saw the video where the mind lagged the decision by up to 6 seconds. Is not the desire generated by the organism and not the mind ?

So how did you take that from an intellectual experience to the knowing of it.

This is not something that can be done consciously. For me it was the Recognition of the implications of Seeing that This IS IT.
It hit me that what i was seeking was purely a mental picture somewhere in the future, and that it would always be in the future. Just like the donkey trying to get the carrot dangling on the stick that was tied to itself. As it moved forward, so did the carrot, (seeking) - with a gap never to be closed.
With this Recognition, there was a Surrender. Not a hopelessness, but a willing acceptance of the fact that no matter what i thought about current conditions, that THIS was IT.
Of course, mind said "but it's not good enough" and "you can't settle for this" etc, but it also said "Ha, these are just thoughts" and "if you welcome THIS, then NEXT will improve." ...and it did. (and still is)
Dianne, another thing to consider is that 'liberation' is just a beginning. The Buddhists refer to it as "Stream entry"
There is no end to this journey, but it is transformed from drudgery to adventure. i describe life-ing these days as full of wonder. WonderFull.

lots of love and wonder to you

vince

[dian]

Hi Vince,

dian wrote:I said it depended quite a lot on what life was presenting, it's always easy to accept the good stuff.
Oh yes. i am training a new puppy at the moment, and she is perfectly able to sit and stay when there are no distractions, but when there are other dogs around it's a different story. So we just practice with mild distractions at first and then intensify them as we get better. Now with your Recognition of being lost in story, we don't get to choose our situation. What happens is the more intense the 'distraction', the further into it we get before Recognition occurs. Sometimes much later - even hours or a day. Have you noticed that you are Seeing it happening sooner ? You will get to the point where you see that it was about to happen, and it will abort before starting.

Still doing this exercise when I remember. Not so much seeing it happen sooner as blocks of seeing it happen and when its constantly one after the other I seem to be ready for the next one sooner. Seems to be a matter of paying attention and of course that only happens for a short time and the day has gone by and then its remembered to watch and catch the thought stories again.

dian wrote:No wonder this is so hard - dammed if you want it too much and dammed if you don't it want enough.
Ha, yes. But do we control this wanting ?

No that's just thoughts'

We can observe it, (if that happens) but is there a choice to have a desire or not ?
Is this just like thoughts where we are helpless to stop them ?
You saw the video where the mind lagged the decision by up to 6 seconds. Is not the desire generated by the organism and not the mind ?

The desire is generated by the organism and the thought I want this so badly is just another thought.

dian wrote:So how did you take that from an intellectual experience to the knowing of it.
This is not something that can be done consciously. For me it was the Recognition of the implications of Seeing that This IS IT.
It hit me that what i was seeking was purely a mental picture somewhere in the future, and that it would always be in the future. Just like the donkey trying to get the carrot dangling on the stick that was tied to itself. As it moved forward, so did the carrot, (seeking) - with a gap never to be closed.
With this Recognition, there was a Surrender. Not a hopelessness, but a willing acceptance of the fact that no matter what i thought about current conditions, that THIS was IT.
Of course, mind said "but it's not good enough" and "you can't settle for this" etc, but it also said "Ha, these are just thoughts" and "if you welcome THIS, then NEXT will improve." ...and it did. (and still is)
Dianne, another thing to consider is that 'liberation' is just a beginning. The Buddhists refer to it as "Stream entry"
There is no end to this journey, but it is transformed from drudgery to adventure. i describe life-ing these days as full of wonder. WonderFull.

Thanks for the description I hope you dont mind if I ramble a bit below and you can let me know what you think.
I was typing on the computer and noticed that I can't type without the silent voice speaking the words as I type. If I stop the silent voice the typing stops. So then tried to type without the silent voice but it wouldn't go away so I let the fingers go and ended up with something like this dksklsadfjkadfjklfknkdkdkdkdadjdjkfjk. Got rid of the silent voice though. Next noticed the sound of the rain, I thought it was a continuing in the background while I sat at the computer but if I was typing I wasn't noticing, it kind of came and went with attention. So I tried it with looking at the trees outside the window. Same could see trees but that cut out hearing rain and typing. Next I had a sweet smelling candle in the room and attention went to that and thought that's very strong it must stay in the background while I type but no once attention was back on hearing the rain or seeing the trees or typing with the commentary from the silent voice the smell of the candle was gone. Only one thing can be done at a time although its very fast hearing raindrop seeing trees, hearing raindrop. So I was wondering if that's what you mean by This IS IT. Can only be the one thing happening no matter how many things seem to be going on around hearing rain is it, or seeing trees is it, or typing words is it, or smelling candle is it and attention can zip quickly from one to the other but just the one that attention is on at the time IS IT.

kind regards,
Dianne

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Dianne.

Seems to be a matter of paying attention and of course that only happens for a short time and the day has gone by and then its remembered to watch and catch the thought stories again.

Ah yes. Conditioning takes over and we operate on automatic. Amazing the way this happens. The organism takes care of everything. Now we just 'intend' a change of conditioning. (Mindfullness does that.) It is happening.

..do we control this wanting ?
No that's just thoughts'

Yes, and those thoughts have the same veracity as the sound of the refrigerator.

I hope you dont mind if I ramble a bit

i not only don't mind, i welcome it.

Only one thing can be done at a time although its very fast

Excellent. Beautifully noticed. Did you notice also that all of the noticing was always about something that was in the past (sometimes just milliseconds) That by the time is was noticed it was the noticing that was the present experiencing ?

just the one that attention is on at the time IS IT.

Your own wisdom can answer this. Other than current experiencing, is there anything at all that is not concept ?
...but more than this. Observing that by the time any experiencing is noticed that it has already become memory (thoughts) and that as a result there is no point in having any other relationship to it than total acceptance. What is finished can't be changed and an attitude of welcome acceptance allows the next moment to be unshackled from the previous. This allows the default 'state' of joy and happiness a much better chance of emergence.
Another really big thing is also that it reveals seeking (thoughts of future) to be a distraction from THIS.

Do feel free to "ramble" about experiencing.

love

vince

[dian]

Hi Vince,

dian wrote: just the one that attention is on at the time IS IT.
Your own wisdom can answer this.

I think you over estimate my wisdom. Would it be more accurate to say instead of this IS IT, this WAS IT. As I am noticing sound of raindrop, seeing trees, smell of candle, fingers typing the attention itself is then the direct experience.

Other than current experiencing, is there anything at all that is not concept ?
...but more than this. Observing that by the time any experiencing is noticed that it has already become memory (thoughts) and that as a result there is no point in having any other relationship to it than total acceptance. What is finished can't be changed and an attitude of welcome acceptance allows the next moment to be unshackled from the previous. This allows the default 'state' of joy and happiness a much better chance of emergence.
Another really big thing is also that it reveals seeking (thoughts of future) to be a distraction from THIS.

So life is everything in this moment and once the I comes in (thought) to notice the things happening the new experience is the thought - sound of raindrop, then seeing trees, then smell of candle, then feel of fingers typing.

So for life itself everything is happening at the same time sound of birds, view of trees feet walking sensation on ground but the noticing of any of that brings in I.

bye for now
Dianne

[vinceschubert]

Good Evening Dianne,

I think you over estimate my wisdom.

No, it wasn't a compliment or fatuous. Once thoughts are seen as having no inherent veracity, an innate wisdom is uncovered. It is a way of looking at situations without the distraction of emotions produced by story. A kind of dispassionate perspective.
Have a look at the question again and see if you can see what i describe.

Would it be more accurate to say instead of this IS IT, this WAS IT.

No, it is only mind that lags the actual Experiencing. Please don't just accept anything i say. LOOK for yourself.

As I am noticing sound of raindrop, seeing trees, smell of candle, fingers typing the attention itself is then the direct experience.

It's tricky stuff, isn't it ? (and very subtle) The attention is also in the past when it is noticed. If you can notice what is before description of it occurs, you are closer to IT.
Try this; Sit at a table with a cup on it.
Look at the cup and notice the thought stories that arise about it. The labels for colour, shape, texture etc.
Keep looking and wait until the thought stuff slows or stops. There will be moments where there is just Seeing. No description, no words, no thoughts. Just THIS. Later, mind will claim ownership of the experience. It will do this with words (thoughts) that it uses to communicate the experience.

but the noticing of any of that brings in I.

Hmm. Kind of. The language used to describe the noticing, reinforces the illusion of a Self (an I)
Language is predicated on personal pronouns. From when we learn to speak, language reinforces the idea of a separate self.

love

vince

[dian]

Hi Vince,

As I am noticing sound of raindrop, seeing trees, smell of candle, fingers typing the attention itself is then the direct experience.
It's tricky stuff, isn't it ? (and very subtle) The attention is also in the past when it is noticed. If you can notice what is before description of it occurs, you are closer to IT.

Try this; Sit at a table with a cup on it.
Look at the cup and notice the thought stories that arise about it. The labels for colour, shape, texture etc.
Keep looking and wait until the thought stuff slows or stops. There will be moments where there is just Seeing. No description, no words, no thoughts. Just THIS. Later, mind will claim ownership of the experience. It will do this with words (thoughts) that it uses to communicate the experience.

In seeing the cup it's almost as if thoughts are taking a rest and with that rest there is no description of cup. Nothing concrete to grasp onto without the mind coming back in and then it's over, seeing is gone. The mind is absent so there is no describing and just Seeing is so nondescript that its unnoticed until thought comes back. Its experience happening and nothing to relate to until the mind is back. Like trying to come back to what was.
There's a memory of it but that's not it.

Bye for now
Dianne