I'm ready for this, please guide me to Truth!

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adam78
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I'm ready for this, please guide me to Truth!

Postby adam78 » Fri Aug 16, 2013 7:13 pm

I'm here to see the Truth, will someone kindly show me the way?

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sqnhoj
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Re: I'm ready for this, please guide me to Truth!

Postby sqnhoj » Sat Aug 17, 2013 2:37 am

Hello,

My name is John, and I would be happy to accompany you as a guide.

1. You agree to post at least once a day. Would you mind stating that you have read and agree to the following:

1. You agree to post at least once a day.
2. In general, the guide will ask the questions for you to respond to
3. Responses require your utmost honesty
4. Responses are best from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress.
5. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
6. Please learn to use the quote function; instructions are located in the link below this line:
http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660

If you are unable to post once per day at least, just try to let me know, and if I'm going to be away with the chance of not being able to post, I'll try to let you know.

If you agree to this, then kindly answer the following question:

What are your expectations with regard to liberation? How do you think it will feel, and how do you think it will change you?

I'm looking forward to this journey.

Best wishes,

John

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sqnhoj
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Re: I'm ready for this, please guide me to Truth!

Postby sqnhoj » Sat Aug 17, 2013 2:44 am

Hi,

I see I duplicated the "agree to post once a day." Sorry about that.

Looking forward to hearing from you.

Regards,
John

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adam78
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Re: I'm ready for this, please guide me to Truth!

Postby adam78 » Sat Aug 17, 2013 7:22 pm

Dear John,

Thank you so very much for your willingness to guide. I do agree to all of the "terms" outlined. I'm in Hawaii, just want to make you aware of possible time difference between us.
What are your expectations with regard to liberation? How do you think it will feel, and how do you think it will change you?
At the most basic level, I think it will feel like a great insight, hopefully one that will silence the inner dialogue, which will allow me to exist in a place of greater contentment with the world and my place in it, to live in the present with things as they are.

I have read plenty of accounts of dramatic physical changes, etc. that seem to occur in conjunction with an awakening....I guess something like that may be possible too.

Thanks again for your kindness and generous support.

Adam

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Re: I'm ready for this, please guide me to Truth!

Postby sqnhoj » Sat Aug 17, 2013 8:37 pm

Adam,

Thank you for your response. It's helpful to know where you are, so I have a sense of the time difference. I'm on the east coast United States, Washington, D.C.
Dear John,

At the most basic level, I think it will feel like a great insight, hopefully one that will silence the inner dialogue, which will allow me to exist in a place of greater contentment with the world and my place in it, to live in the present with things as they are.

I have read plenty of accounts of dramatic physical changes, etc. that seem to occur in conjunction with an awakening....I guess something like that may be possible too.
It's not my responsibility to lecture, but I would urge caution regarding your expectations. Have you read the book Gateless Gatecrashers that can be downloaded from the Liberation Unleashed website? It will help you get a feel for the process, with examples from others who have seen the truth that there is no self. The experience of others will not necessarily be the same as your journey. And, by the way, the liberation is actually the beginning of a marvelous ride through everyday experience. As for "silencing the inner dialogue," no promises whatsoever. Experience goes on, including the five senses, thinking, and experiencing emotions. That raw experience is what I want you to focus on as we proceed. In the area of thinking, no need to get into the content of thought in order to debate.

I hope that does not disappoint you. Let's start with this question:

If I say to you, "There is no you in any way, shape or form and never was or never will be," what comes up? Describe your reaction with a focus on your direct experience.

Thanks, again, for getting back to me. I'm looking forward to this process.

Sincerely,

John

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Re: I'm ready for this, please guide me to Truth!

Postby sqnhoj » Sat Aug 17, 2013 10:36 pm

Adam,

Hi. I took a look at my first sentence and didn't want it to come out wrong. I should have said, it's not my place to lecture. You will find that it's important for you to take responsibility for your own "looking." I'll help point...and prod, if necessary, and as long as you are committed, I will stick with you.

Thanks again for embarking on this. A firm commitment to the truth of your direct experience is the requirement.

Looking forward to hearing from you again.

John

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Re: I'm ready for this, please guide me to Truth!

Postby adam78 » Sun Aug 18, 2013 2:31 am

Hi John,

Thank you for both responses. The clarification of your first response wasn’t necessary, but is appreciated.
Have you read the book Gateless Gatecrashers that can be downloaded from the Liberation Unleashed website?
I began looking at dialogues on the site and read through a few of those in the book. Would you recommend I continue reading through the book while we work together? I wasn’t sure if that constituted “other teachings” that should be set aside for now.
I hope that does not disappoint you.
I am not disappointed in the least. I am ready to do the work.
If I say to you, "There is no you in any way, shape or form and never was or never will be," what comes up? Describe your reaction with a focus on your direct experience.
A twinge of nervousness/tightness in the chest, maybe also exhileration. Then the mind starts turning your statement over as an idea and the thoughts roll on. I don’t know if I should write at all about these, since you said to focus on experience, I won’t. I definitely feel warmth in my chest and it almost seems like the beginning of emotion welling up.

Thanks again for your support,

Adam

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Re: I'm ready for this, please guide me to Truth!

Postby sqnhoj » Sun Aug 18, 2013 4:37 am

Adam,
I began looking at dialogues on the site and read through a few of those in the book. Would you recommend I continue reading through the book while we work together? I wasn’t sure if that constituted “other teachings” that should be set aside for now.
The book, Gateless Gatecrashers, is not another teaching, but is a great introduction to Liberation Unleashed's process. By all means, read it. I keep a copy, and it is, I believe, a free download. You will see Elena and Ilona, LU's founders, work with individual clients to help them see.
A twinge of nervousness/tightness in the chest, maybe also exhilaration. Then the mind starts turning your statement over as an idea and the thoughts roll on. I don’t know if I should write at all about these, since you said to focus on experience, I won’t. I definitely feel warmth in my chest and it almost seems like the beginning of emotion welling up.
Great description! Now let's get down to business. Who is experiencing all this? Whose mind is turning this over? Who is thinking those thoughts? Who feels the warmth in a chest...and whose chest? Look, using your senses. Responses should be the obvious response that comes from direct experience...but not from thinking, debate, and analysis. Don't use what some people call "common sense." Use what is experienced right now in the most direct sense. Describe it as simply as possible, but don't leave out anything that is important to you. Is there someone who is experiencing all that?

Is there resistance? If so, where is it? (Don't cover it up, but don't assume resistance if there is none.)

Don't be afraid to elaborate on your description as appropriate for a description of experience, but let's not get sucked into a debate or a philosophical discussion.

Keep on looking. (Be prepared to hear me say that a lot!)

Cheers,

John

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adam78
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Re: I'm ready for this, please guide me to Truth!

Postby adam78 » Sun Aug 18, 2013 7:34 am

Who is experiencing all this? Whose mind is turning this over? Who is thinking those thoughts? Who feels the warmth in a chest...and whose chest? Look, using your senses. Responses should be the obvious response that comes from direct experience...but not from thinking, debate, and analysis. Don't use what some people call "common sense." Use what is experienced right now in the most direct sense. Describe it as simply as possible, but don't leave out anything that is important to you. Is there someone who is experiencing all that?
Well…at first nothing comes up. Then the idea that “the experiencer” must be the one experiencing rises to the surface. Obviously a thought.

Then I stop and look at your questions again to see if I can get a fresh reaction, and what rises to the surface is that it’s simply experience, but I’m afraid that this is the mind parroting something I’ve read before rather than a genuine insight. Then I notice that I’m trying to watch myself to make sure I’m being completely aware and honest…which I then question as a possible trap of the ego.

Then the thought rises, there must be something experiencing, mustn’t there? (This question rose from analysis…which is probably obvious, but this is where I sit).

Initially, I didn't sense any resistance, but the mind seems to just want to say "I don't know" and leave it at that. And there definitely does seem to be seem to be some physical tension, shoulders and chest.

These were my immediate reactions. I’ll come back to the questions tonight and in the morning and post anything new.

Thanks again John.

Best,

Adam

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Re: I'm ready for this, please guide me to Truth!

Postby sqnhoj » Sun Aug 18, 2013 12:45 pm

Adam,

Great answers throughout (even if I do pick them apart).
Well…at first nothing comes up. Then the idea that “the experiencer” must be the one experiencing rises to the surface. Obviously a thought.

Then I stop and look at your questions again to see if I can get a fresh reaction, and what rises to the surface is that it’s simply experience, but I’m afraid that this is the mind parroting something I’ve read before rather than a genuine insight.
Thanks for your commitment to fresh, direct experience as the basis for responses. Who stops to look at the question? Who is looking for a fresh reaction? The phrase “what rises to the surface is that it’s simply experience” is a good description, and you don’t even label it a thought. Part of me wants to get picky and ask about this “surface.” Surface of what? Is that description or metaphor? (I don’t mean to criticize the use of metaphor, just call attention to it.) Who is afraid that it’s the “mind parroting”? Isn’t that just another thought arising? By the way, what’s your definition of “insight”? What we are seeing (and don’t see) tends to be pretty obvious upon investigation.
Then I notice that I’m trying to watch myself to make sure I’m being completely aware and honest…which I then question as a possible trap of the ego.
Who notices, and who is “trying to watch”? Who wants to be “completely aware and honest”? How would you describe being “completely aware”? Who questions that “possible trap of the ego”? Who does all this? Can you describe this “person”? Size, shape, color, location? Can you find him at all? (If you can, please let me know.)
Then the thought rises, there must be something experiencing, mustn’t there? (This question rose from analysis…which is probably obvious, but this is where I sit).
Yes, it did, but I appreciate you reporting it. We don’t have to ignore completely the content of thought as long as we don’t get sucked into a debate. So, the thought arose…then what? If you just notice it without either trying to resist it or trying to hold on to it, what happens? More to the point—where does the thought arise? Who notices it? We’re on a discovery mission here.
Initially, I didn't sense any resistance, but the mind seems to just want to say "I don't know" and leave it at that. And there definitely does seem to be seem to be some physical tension, shoulders and chest.
Okay, now I guess I’m going to break a rule and ask for a little analysis. The physical tension…is it associated with any particular emotion? By the way, emotions are part of our direct experience, as well, so they are fair game for looking. Hopefully they don’t get overwhelming. I don’t sense a problem there, though please let me know if there is. Does the feeling of tension persist, change, move? If you notice it without resistance, what happens?
These were my immediate reactions. I’ll come back to the questions tonight and in the morning and post anything new.
Thank you for staying with direct experience in your responses. For the most part, what we are looking for is actually quite obvious. So while the looking should not involve strain, we want to be thorough and look every conceivable place. Leave no stone unturned, and go down every rabbit hole…to your satisfaction. But don’t assume that means it will take a long time. It doesn’t need to.

Keep up the good work, Adam.

John

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Re: I'm ready for this, please guide me to Truth!

Postby adam78 » Sun Aug 18, 2013 11:59 pm

Hi John,

I wanted to offer an update from last night and this morning before proceeding to read your post. After I posted last night, I read one of the dialogues from the book. This led me to reflect on the idea that “I” was never born. This seemed to put me into a place of pretty deep internal silence. I was pretty quiet, maybe even what would be described as spacey for the rest of the night. Then I tossed and turned a lot last night. So far this morning I’ve noticed that there has been a lot of mental chatter…the mind is spitting up lots of petty frustrations towards my partner. As I type this, some tension mounts in the shoulders.


Please feel free to pick apart! Be as direct and blunt as you feel you need to, I am ready to do the work.

Who stops to look at the question? Who is looking for a fresh reaction?
First answer = the mind. But then thought searches for a phrase which fits better, better meaning that which thought thinks you would quarrel with less. Second answer = the power of observation. Third answer = that which has the capacity to direct attention. What is that? I feel like I can’t know, but it seems obvious that such a power exists.

The phrase “what rises to the surface is that it’s simply experience” is a good description, and you don’t even label it a thought. Part of me wants to get picky and ask about this “surface.” Surface of what? Is that description or metaphor? (I don’t mean to criticize the use of metaphor, just call attention to it.)
Yes, I suppose it was a metaphor. A more precise description of the experience would be that it came into conscious awareness.
Who is afraid that it’s the “mind parroting”? Isn’t that just another thought arising?
Yes, it is. The actions are that a thought is observed, (my initial tendency was to use the term “the mind” rather than thought) then it is analyzed with more thought. There is fear that the “I” will play tricks in some way, allowing me to believe something has been seen. After looking at this paragraph sometime after writing it, the question arises, “Who is the seer?”. No answer. And if the “I” doesn’t exist, a belief cannot exist, because there is no believer, it is only a thought.
By the way, what’s your definition of “insight”?
Insight is to see something as it is.


What we are seeing (and don’t see) tends to be pretty obvious upon investigation.

Yes, I’ve read/heard this in many teachings. Reflecting on this brings up another “expectation” thought. Obvious is fine, simple is fine, but there is an expectation or hope that the “insight” is certain and unshakable.
How would you describe being “completely aware”?
Having a clear understanding of what is thought, what is feeling, what is other experience, without confusing one for the other.
Yes, it did, but I appreciate you reporting it. We don’t have to ignore completely the content of thought as long as we don’t get sucked into a debate. So, the thought arose…then what? If you just notice it without either trying to resist it or trying to hold on to it, what happens? More to the point—where does the thought arise? Who notices it? We’re on a discovery mission here.
If I ask the question “who is experiencing?” Nothing comes. Then logical thought tells me that there must be something experiencing, but it can’t locate or identify an experiencing entity.

The head is light and spacey, there is a resistance to focusing.

Thanks again for all of your help and support.

Adam

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Re: I'm ready for this, please guide me to Truth!

Postby sqnhoj » Mon Aug 19, 2013 1:43 am

Adam,

Another great post and spot-on answers.
wanted to offer an update from last night and this morning before proceeding to read your post. After I posted last night, I read one of the dialogues from the book. This led me to reflect on the idea that “I” was never born. This seemed to put me into a place of pretty deep internal silence. I was pretty quiet, maybe even what would be described as spacey for the rest of the night. Then I tossed and turned a lot last night. So far this morning I’ve noticed that there has been a lot of mental chatter…the mind is spitting up lots of petty frustrations towards my partner. As I type this, some tension mounts in the shoulders.
So "internal silence" last night, and "lots of mental chatter" this morning. This sounds like the normal way experience comes and goes. That's why I was concerned about any expectations of silencing the inner dialog. Definitely not likely to happen as long as you are alive. Inner quiet, thoughts, frustrations, tension...all part of constantly changing experience. But right at the center of all that, is there anyone experiencing all that coming and going of changing experience? Is there anyone at all? Can you find him? If so, where? Can you describe him? Have you up to this point believed that there was someone there...a self? If so, can that belief drop if there is no evidence to verify it? Please note, I'm not asking you to change your beliefs. Am asking, "Can that belief drop if there is no evidence to verify it?"
Please feel free to pick apart! Be as direct and blunt as you feel you need to, I am ready to do the work.
Okay, I'll be picky. Who is ready to do the work? I know you are using those words to communicate--as do I (and please note, I didn't put the word "I" in quote marks). Not trying to confuse you. Language is fine, but do you believe...or more accurately find...an entity to which that word refers?
First answer = the mind. But then thought searches for a phrase which fits better, better meaning that which thought thinks you would quarrel with less. Second answer = the power of observation. Third answer = that which has the capacity to direct attention. What is that? I feel like I can’t know, but it seems obvious that such a power exists.
Hmm...this needs some investigation. Can we get back to it after we explore raw experience and determine if there is any self who experiences? You may need to remind me when/if this thread gets much longer. Meanwhile, I want to go as quickly as you are able...or take as much time as you feel necessary.
Obvious is fine, simple is fine, but there is an expectation or hope that the “insight” is certain and unshakable.
Thank you for defining what you mean by "insight." That's a useful definition for us to work with. Again, some caution about expectations. What is really seen can't be unseen, but all kinds of doubtful thoughts and other crap can arise. However, one look can dispel the illusion that there is a self thinking those thoughts and experiencing that crap, but the thoughts and crap don't necessarily disappear immediately. Would that be "certain and unshakable" enough? Again, I don't want to feed any expectations, but I want to provide some realistic encouragement.
Having a clear understanding of what is thought, what is feeling, what is other experience, without confusing one for the other.
A helpful explanation of what you meant by "completely aware." I was concerned by the word "completely." In your experience do you sometimes find a jumble of thoughts, sensations, emotions? Have you ever experienced thought as kind of a mental static, with interior words scarcely or not at all discernible? Do you expect this to change?
The head is light and spacey, there is a resistance to focusing.
Do you expect to reach a point where that would not happen? I guess it's only fair to tell you that the "goal" is to see clearly that there is no self...so clearly that the seeing (or more accurately "not seeing") is not disturbed by whatever negative or doubtful thoughts arise, and it's likely they will. Beyond that, no promises. However, I will add my own testimony that I really love the ride--pain, negative emotions, anxious thoughts, occasional anger, frustration, and all. I am madly in love with the entire gamut of experience. I feel I owe you that honesty.

Best regards,

John

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Re: I'm ready for this, please guide me to Truth!

Postby adam78 » Mon Aug 19, 2013 3:44 am

Hi John,

Thanks for the response.

But right at the center of all that, is there anyone experiencing all that coming and going of changing experience? Is there anyone at all? Can you find him? If so, where? Can you describe him? Have you up to this point believed that there was someone there...a self? If so, can that belief drop if there is no evidence to verify it? Please note, I'm not asking you to change your beliefs. Am asking, "Can that belief drop if there is no evidence to verify it?"
There is awareness of the comings and goings of changing experience, thoughts, emotions, sensory perception. I wonder if this can be "me"?
Okay, I'll be picky. Who is ready to do the work? I know you are using those words to communicate--as do I (and please note, I didn't put the word "I" in quote marks). Not trying to confuse you. Language is fine, but do you believe...or more accurately find...an entity to which that word refers?
Yes, it was simply a word choice. Perhaps more accurately, "There is a willingness to do the work."
adam78 wrote:First answer = the mind. But then thought searches for a phrase which fits better, better meaning that which thought thinks you would quarrel with less. Second answer = the power of observation. Third answer = that which has the capacity to direct attention. What is that? I feel like I can’t know, but it seems obvious that such a power exists.
Hmm...this needs some investigation. Can we get back to it after we explore raw experience and determine if there is any self who experiences? You may need to remind me when/if this thread gets much longer. Meanwhile, I want to go as quickly as you are able...or take as much time as you feel necessary.
There must be awareness to perceive thoughts, sensory perceptions and emotions, mustn't there?
In your experience do you sometimes find a jumble of thoughts, sensations, emotions? Have you ever experienced thought as kind of a mental static, with interior words scarcely or not at all discernible? Do you expect this to change?
Sure. I think there is often a tendency for thought to dominate and cloud reality. It would be nice if it changed, though I'm not sure I have an expectation of it.
Do you expect to reach a point where that would not happen?
Not necessarily, I'm simply trying to note anything that seems relevant.
I guess it's only fair to tell you that the "goal" is to see clearly that there is no self...so clearly that the seeing (or more accurately "not seeing") is not disturbed by whatever negative or doubtful thoughts arise, and it's likely they will. Beyond that, no promises.
Thank you for this. This is where things get tricky for me. I feel like I can abandon any idea of "Adam" as a mental construct, but something is here, a perceiver, an existence. Isn't that me?

Thanks again for your diligence John

Best,

Adam

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Re: I'm ready for this, please guide me to Truth!

Postby sqnhoj » Mon Aug 19, 2013 11:16 am

Adam,

Good morning from the east coast.
There is awareness of the comings and goings of changing experience, thoughts, emotions, sensory perception. I wonder if this can be "me"?
Why "wonder" instead of looking? What about the latter part of my question? Can you find evidence of a self in direct experience? If so, please point to it and describe it so that I can see it too. If not, can belief in a self drop away?
There must be awareness to perceive thoughts, sensory perceptions and emotions, mustn't there?
What I felt needs some further investigation is when you referred to "power to..." and "capacity to...." When you're ready, we'll need to look for a doer, a decider, a chooser. Meanwhile..."awareness" is another word. In your experience, does it refer to anything perceivable in any way?
I feel like I can abandon any idea of "Adam" as a mental construct, but something is here, a perceiver, an existence. Isn't that me?
Bingo! That "perceiver" or "existence" is what you are to look for. Is there anything there, or is it possible that that is a mental construct, as well. Does experience need an experiencer?

Looking is not complicated. Do you have a wallet in your pocket with a dollar bill in it? Same principle.

Keep looking. I'm off to work.

John

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Re: I'm ready for this, please guide me to Truth!

Postby adam78 » Mon Aug 19, 2013 7:06 pm

Good morning John,

I see it.
Why "wonder" instead of looking? What about the latter part of my question? Can you find evidence of a self in direct experience? If so, please point to it and describe it so that I can see it too. If not, can belief in a self drop away?
No, there is no self which can be pointed to as a tangible, coherent entity. There is awareness, there is thought, there is emotion. Belief is just another thought.
What I felt needs some further investigation is when you referred to "power to..." and "capacity to...." When you're ready, we'll need to look for a doer, a decider, a chooser. Meanwhile..."awareness" is another word. In your experience, does it refer to anything perceivable in any way?
Awareness seemed to be the thing that watches thoughts, emotions, phenomena pass, although upon deeper looking it cannot be perceived, it can only be “seen” in retrospect, which makes it a memory and therefore, as a separate entity, it 's just another thought.

When perception and perceived are “happening”, there is only one.

Bingo! That "perceiver" or "existence" is what you are to look for. Is there anything there, or is it possible that that is a mental construct, as well. Does experience need an experiencer?
As noted above, at the moment of perception, there is not a separate perceiver, there is unity between the perceived and perceiver. The idea that there is something separate is just an idea that comes up afterwards.

Looking is not complicated. Do you have a wallet in your pocket with a dollar bill in it? Same principle.

Keep looking. I'm off to work.

John


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