Who wants to guide me?

This is a read-only part of the forum. All threads where seeing happens are stored here and come from this forum, the Facebook guiding area and various LU blogs. The complete list, sorted by guide, contains all links. The archives include threads of those that came to LU already seeing as well.
User avatar
Gadget
Posts: 17
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 4:50 pm

Who wants to guide me?

Postby Gadget » Thu Nov 27, 2014 10:39 am

Hi there,

I'm ready to go through the gate. It feels like I've been standing at the threshold for quite some time. Who wants to help me investigate?

Thanks in advance,

Yves.

User avatar
Xain
Posts: 3509
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 9:31 pm
Location: Everywhere and Nowhere

Re: Who wants to guide me?

Postby Xain » Thu Nov 27, 2014 11:40 am

Hi Yves

Tell me a little more about yourself.
What brings you to LU? Have you read the 'Gateless Gatecrashers' book?

You mentioned 'You've been standing at the threshold' - How do you mean?

What are you looking for in a discussion with a guide? What is it that is wanted?
What expectations do you have?

Xain ♥

User avatar
Gadget
Posts: 17
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 4:50 pm

Re: Who wants to guide me?

Postby Gadget » Thu Nov 27, 2014 3:38 pm

Hi Xain,

Thanks for replying to me.

A good friend of mine told me about LU a little while ago. We're both practicing Dzogchen, although my practice mostly consists of me talking with him and receiving pointers. I have read the Gateless Gatecrashers book, and just reading it has brought me a lot more clarity on issues of what "I" actually means, and how the self works.

Intellectually, I totally understand that "Yves" is just a character, with his own story and comprised of thoughts, memories, identifications with feelings. I welcome the fact that there is no one behind the steering wheel, and that it absolutely does not make any difference for life and everything there is if I "possess" the thoughts and feelings that I experience or not.

A month ago I had a very intense experience in which I confronted my biggest fears, and after I 'burnt' through those, I experienced first some sort of vacuum inside me, and immediately after something I can only refer to as just awareness. There were thoughts, surely, but there was no one to own them nor anyone to observe what was happening. It felt completely natural and blissful at the same time.

After this experience, thoughts just aren't the same anymore. They are just not that important, and I can listen to them without doing anything with them. It really does not matter what I do it feels, because everything unfolds by itself without 'me' trying to change it. So it feels I am standing on the threshold. As I read in the book "that which is seen cannot be unseen", I guess I am not through yet, because I still feel doubts. Since my experience, a lot of belief systems about myself and how I see the world seem to bubble up from nowhere, and there is a unmistakable and unshakeable feeling of owning those thoughts. It is unclear for me if this feeling of "owning thoughts" will ever be totally shaken off, even after passing through the gate. For now, I can just observe these thoughts, and mostly they seem to vanish by itself.

I am looking for a guide who can give me the pointers to investigate in myself where I am at. That which is wanted is to see through the illusion of self, once and for all. That there is no doubt any more about it. I don't really have expectations, only maybe that the peace and calm I already feel most of the times becomes even deeper and more undisturbed.

Looking forward to your reply.

Yves

User avatar
Xain
Posts: 3509
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 9:31 pm
Location: Everywhere and Nowhere

Re: Who wants to guide me?

Postby Xain » Sat Nov 29, 2014 12:49 pm

Hi again Yves

Thanks for your reply.

My guidance is not to try to attain any sort of permanent 'state' or specific lasting 'experience'. I just thought I'd ensure you realise that from what you said.

My guidance here would be for a realisation. The realisation that there is no 'separate self' - Nor has there ever been - Nor will there ever be. To realise that 'I' is simply a creation of thought / the mind.
Is this what is required?
I don't really have expectations, only maybe that the peace and calm I already feel most of the times becomes even deeper and more undisturbed.
This may be possible, but only as a by-product of any realisation and not the realisation itself. No-one's realisation is the same, and the outcome cannot be predicted.

I must ask you to put all other expectations away other than the goal I mentioned. At minimum, expectations of some-sort of permanent blissful state will give a sense of disappointment if they are not gained at at worst, they will prevent any realisation altogether.

I will also ask you to put away all ideas about non-duality from what you have been taught or what you have read or learned somewhere, and answer from what you truly believe, and what appears to be correct in the immediate moment. (We can go into this further later).
Since my experience, a lot of belief systems about myself and how I see the world seem to bubble up from nowhere, and there is a unmistakable and unshakeable feeling of owning those thoughts
I understand - We will look into this area together.
I am looking for a guide who can give me the pointers to investigate in myself where I am at. That which is wanted is to see through the illusion of self, once and for all. That there is no doubt any more about it.
Good.
As a guide, I can point to where to look. I may offer assistance and suggestions along the way, but most of the questions will be coming from me and you will be looking and answering.

Ok to continue? Any other questions or thoughts at this stage?

Xain ♥

User avatar
Gadget
Posts: 17
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 4:50 pm

Re: Who wants to guide me?

Postby Gadget » Mon Dec 01, 2014 11:52 am

Hi Xain,

Your answer is totally clear to me. I expect nothing other than to realize that there is no separate self and never has been nor will be. I really don't expect any permanent blissful state, nor any fireworks, since I am not seeking those. I understand that my expectations of peace and calm after realization is just a thought that may or may not happen for real, but that it is not of any importance regarding the realization itself. The outcome cannot be predicted - that feels totally true.

One expectation I still have however is that this realization will bring a permanent shift of perception. Permanent in the way that there will not be any doubt anymore about the realization. I find it hard to drop this one.

Yes, I would love to continue. No more questions at this stage.

Thanks,

Yves.

User avatar
Xain
Posts: 3509
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 9:31 pm
Location: Everywhere and Nowhere

Re: Who wants to guide me?

Postby Xain » Mon Dec 01, 2014 12:50 pm

One expectation I still have however is that this realization will bring a permanent shift of perception. Permanent in the way that there will not be any doubt anymore about the realization. I find it hard to drop this one.
How would a 'shift in perception' manifest itself?
A realisation would simply be a recognition of what is happening, and how things are - And have always been, but have been masked over by thought. At the same time, it would be realised that there isn't an 'I', a separate self that has 'realised something'.
A 'shift in perception' to me means that the world would be 'perceived' in a different way. This is an expected 'change' and isn't what we are looking to fulfil here. Also, perhaps it is a subtle belief in a separate self 'now' that is perceiving things one way, and will perceive things in a different way 'after'.

A few guidelines which will assist us both.

1. Please post at least once a day, if you cannot post, or need more time, let me know.
2. Be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.
3. Answer from direct personal experience only (we can go into this in more depth later if needed).
4. Read the disclaimer on the Liberation Unleashed main site -> http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

If you need to you can use the QUOTE function like I have done above to quote some of your replies - It may make it easier to read through the dialogue.
A guide for this function can be found here: http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660
Basically, anything that is inside [ QUOTE ] and [ / QUOTE ] will appear in a block.
Like this :-)
Xain ♥

User avatar
Gadget
Posts: 17
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 4:50 pm

Re: Who wants to guide me?

Postby Gadget » Tue Dec 02, 2014 2:23 pm

How would a 'shift in perception' manifest itself?
I guess the shift would manifest itself by seeing through the illusion of self. From seeing the world through my eyes, owning this experience, attaching myself to it, to just seeing the world without me as an observer. Nothing would change really, and yet everything would change through this shift of perception.
A realisation would simply be a recognition of what is happening, and how things are - And have always been, but have been masked over by thought. At the same time, it would be realised that there isn't an 'I', a separate self that has 'realised something'.
Does realizing that which we are talking about here imply that one will never be drawn into their own stories, or in not owning the thoughts, feelings and memories that are experienced? I feel that I've had this realization already, but yet it still happens quite often still that I am drawn back into my own story, moderated by my own conditioning, giving me a headache. Then sometimes - but surely not always - I realize/remember it is just thoughts happening, and it feels I am not owning my thoughts and feeling any more, it doesn't feel personal anymore then. When this happens it is totally clear to me that it really does not matter whatever "I" do, how I think or act, because everything just happens as it is supposed to happen. Like everything is perfect the way it is.

I will honor the guidelines. I think I read somewhere that it is possible to receive a notification by email if I received a new post. If so, can you tell me how to set this up?

Thanks! Yves

User avatar
Xain
Posts: 3509
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 9:31 pm
Location: Everywhere and Nowhere

Re: Who wants to guide me?

Postby Xain » Tue Dec 02, 2014 7:36 pm

From seeing the world through my eyes, owning this experience, attaching myself to it, to just seeing the world without me as an observer. Nothing would change really, and yet everything would change through this shift of perception.
I understand.
The assumption here is that there IS a separate self seeing the world through their eyes right now ;-)
Does realizing that which we are talking about here imply that one will never be drawn into their own stories, or in not owning the thoughts, feelings and memories that are experienced?
No.
Again here, there is an assumption that there IS a separate self right now being 'drawn into a story'.
Thoughts or the pattern of thoughts MIGHT change, but that cannot be estimated.

If some of this sounds tricky to grasp, or you aren't sure what will happen, don't worry.
Just proceed and put these expectations aside. Just allow what happens 'to happen'.
I realize/remember it is just thoughts happening, and it feels I am not owning my thoughts and feeling any more, it doesn't feel personal anymore then.
We will look into this very thing together.
I think I read somewhere that it is possible to receive a notification by email if I received a new post. If so, can you tell me how to set this up?
It might do it automatically. If it doesn't, there should be a setting in your User Control Panel / Board Preferences configuration somewhere.

The first to do to in the guiding is to examine 'I'.
Try to go with what you truly believe, rather than what you may have read or heard.

What are 'you'?
In the most basic terms, are you currently a person sat down at a computer screen (or electronic device) reading text - And who will type a reply in a few moments?
Feel free to elaborate on what you currently believe you are? Do you control the body? Do you have free-will and can make choices?

Xain 3>

User avatar
Gadget
Posts: 17
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 4:50 pm

Re: Who wants to guide me?

Postby Gadget » Wed Dec 03, 2014 12:16 pm

What are 'you'?
In the most basic terms, are you currently a person sat down at a computer screen (or electronic device) reading text - And who will type a reply in a few moments?
Feel free to elaborate on what you currently believe you are? Do you control the body? Do you have free-will and can make choices?
I am this body sitting down and typing this text here, seeing the text appear as soon as my fingers type it. There is a feeling that I decide that which I write, although if I try to grasp the moment right now when this happens, this decision making, I cannot seem to find it. The more I try now, the funnier it gets, it feels as if it happens by itself. There still is this feeling of control however. This thought just popped up: 'Nah, type something else", so that's what I did. There is a sense that I own this thought, but as I investigate now - as I have done before - where this thought came from, I am totally lost. That is impossible to find, the thoughts just seem to happen by itself. Now there is another thought that says: "Keep going, keep going", and yet another that tells me: 'Ridiculous, now you are talking to yourself in the way the guides talk on this site". I feel I identify with those thoughts, trying to own them, but as I try to feel where they come from, or if I can make them appear or disappear, I fail. All of a sudden they are there, and all of a sudden they are gone again. I feel a slight pressure in my chest, which feels quite nice really. I try to find how this feeling got there in the first place, and if it was there already before I noticed it, but I cannot find any answers. I get a bit annoyed now, I think I had this before, it feels like chasing behind ghosts. This is what happens now.

So to answer your question: there seems to be a person here typing this reply, and I still feel I identify with this person. I understand that "I" is just a concept, an illusion made up of thoughts, emotions and memories, and that this feeling of I gets strengthened every time I identify again with any thoughts and emotions that come up in this body, or when I label a direct experience as 'mine'. There is a belief system in place that thinks "I" control the body and that "I" have free will, but when I investigate at micro level, I cannot find any proof of that. It seems that everything just takes care of itself, impulses and all, no matter what I think about controlling or not.

My understanding of what "I" means nowadays feels more that just intellectual, if that makes any sense. But it seems to me that the expectations we talked about still keep me hostage in this illusion. I loved your first two answers. They made it clear to me that the only thing we can work on is what happens now, what I can investigate now, and it is absurd to think that I can with any truth say anything whatsoever about what happens after. So whether there will be a shift of perception, or that I will be drawn into a story is totally irrelevant in this moment. Would you agree with that?

I fixed the configuration so I will get an update as soon as you replied. Man, I am all of a sudden really excited with this, everything feels vibrant! Looking forward to your reply.

Yves x

User avatar
Xain
Posts: 3509
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 9:31 pm
Location: Everywhere and Nowhere

Re: Who wants to guide me?

Postby Xain » Wed Dec 03, 2014 1:29 pm

Hi Yves

Thank you for your message.
Excellent. I can tell from your reply that you are really looking and are interested in this enquiry.
They made it clear to me that the only thing we can work on is what happens now, what I can investigate now, and it is absurd to think that I can with any truth say anything whatsoever about what happens after. So whether there will be a shift of perception, or that I will be drawn into a story is totally irrelevant in this moment. Would you agree with that?
Yes. Right now is the only time we can be sure about. In fact, it is the present moment that we will be examining in the enquiry together.

Thanks for your elaborate reply about what 'I' represents - This has given us a lot to examine together.
Let us start with simply 'I am a person looking at text on a screen'.

What we can do is examine ideas / thoughts we have about ourselves and see how they match up to what can be found, located or discovered in the present moment.
Clearly, an 'I that looks can be found in thoughts and ideas - 'Yesterday, I saw some clouds in the sky' or 'Tomorrow, I am going to see my friend'. But let us examine the present moment right now and look for an 'I'.

Right now, the screen is being seen. Words are being read.
But what 'I' is doing that?

Examine the actual experience of 'seeing' - Can an 'I' be found in the experience of seeing right now that is doing the 'seeing'? Or is it more accurate to say 'there is just seeing happening'.
Similarly reading (making sense of what is seen) - Can you find an 'I' right now in the experience of reading these words that is responsible for doing it? Or is it more accurate to say 'words are being read'?

Xain ♥

User avatar
Gadget
Posts: 17
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 4:50 pm

Re: Who wants to guide me?

Postby Gadget » Thu Dec 04, 2014 2:10 pm

Hi Xain,

Thanks for your reply. I am loving it :)
Examine the actual experience of 'seeing' - Can an 'I' be found in the experience of seeing right now that is doing the 'seeing'? Or is it more accurate to say 'there is just seeing happening'.
Similarly reading (making sense of what is seen) - Can you find an 'I' right now in the experience of reading these words that is responsible for doing it? Or is it more accurate to say 'words are being read'?
It is definitely more accurate to say that seeing and reading is just happening. The sense of I that I still feel is certainly not doing anything of this. It seems to go all by itself. Yes, it feels that I can decide where to look at with my eyes, but if I investigate this, my eyes seemed to have moved by itself or there was a thought that came up out of nowhere telling 'me' "let's look at the top of the screen now". When this last thing happened, the thought just happened to come into existence and was noticed by, well, it was just noticed. There is a strong sense I noticed it, but that sense seems to be a thought in itself that came up from nowhere. I don't seem to be able to 'catch' a thought in the making, let alone make one myself. The noticing just happens, and until I label it as that which was noticed, "I" does not come into the equation.

When I read the words "let's look at the top of the screen now", the same thought of doing this came to me. So I did. I still feels I am in control of doing this, even though I did not control or make the thought of doing so. It feels as if I am 'owning' the decision to move my eyes to the top of the screen. I know intellectually that this is not true. I understand there is no free will, since there is no "I" that can have a free will in the first place. I seem to get stuck now a bit. As ifI am trying to look at something inside I know is not there, but feel nevertheless. It annoys me.

I'll sit with this for a bit. Awaiting your answer. And thank you so much, I feel so much gratitude already for the time you (evidently :) selflessly put in your replies.

Yves.

User avatar
Gadget
Posts: 17
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 4:50 pm

Re: Who wants to guide me?

Postby Gadget » Sat Dec 06, 2014 9:13 am

Hi Xain,

The next few days I will not be able to reply to you. On Tuesday morning I will be back online. Hope to read your reply then!

x Yves

User avatar
Xain
Posts: 3509
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 9:31 pm
Location: Everywhere and Nowhere

Re: Who wants to guide me?

Postby Xain » Sat Dec 06, 2014 5:43 pm

It is definitely more accurate to say that seeing and reading is just happening.
Good.
I still feels I am in control of doing this, even though I did not control or make the thought of doing so.
Great! I can see you are anxious to forge ahead. We will investigate 'free-will / choice' and thoughts soon.
For the moment, just go back to seeing.

Is it clear at this point that in the experience of 'seeing', there is just 'seeing'.
In 'seeing', it is realised that there is not an 'I', a separate self 'doing it'. Yes?
Can it be seen that 'I see' is just an idea - A thought - It is an assumption.
It is ASSUMED that an 'I' is doing it, but if the pure experience of 'seeing' is examined closely, there is no 'I' there doing it.

Check the other senses now in the same way.
Smell - In 'smelling', is there an 'I', a separate self doing it?
Hearing - The same . . .
Taste . . .

'Touch' may be a little more close to home - Do an experiment. Maybe close your eyes.
Let the hand rest on a surface or object.
Examine the experience of touch - Are there two clear parts in the experience? The object being touched, and the hand / body that is 'doing' the touching? Performing the sensation? Or is there just 'touch'.
In 'feeling' is there an 'I' doing it? Or it there just 'feeling'?

Xain ♥

User avatar
Gadget
Posts: 17
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 4:50 pm

Re: Who wants to guide me?

Postby Gadget » Tue Dec 09, 2014 1:09 pm

Hi Xain!
Is it clear at this point that in the experience of 'seeing', there is just 'seeing'.
In 'seeing', it is realised that there is not an 'I', a separate self 'doing it'. Yes?
Can it be seen that 'I see' is just an idea - A thought - It is an assumption.
It is ASSUMED that an 'I' is doing it, but if the pure experience of 'seeing' is examined closely, there is no 'I' there doing it.
It is absolutely clear that no one is seeing anything, no one is 'doing' the seeing, seeing just happens all by itself. "I" is indeed just a thought, "mine" a thought and a label that this body-mind construct puts on every thought, feeling, direct experience and memory it experiences. The assumption that an "I" is doing something is strong until I start investigating, and then this assumption crumbles. It seems to come back every time, but somehow less strong. Xain, I am just typing whatever comes up, if that is not what is needed (e.g. if I should stick to just answering your questions), please tell me.
Smell - In 'smelling', is there an 'I', a separate self doing it?
There are smells. There is awareness of these smells or there is not. There is no one who makes the smelling happening. There is just smelling. Smelling either happens, or it does not happen. There is a sense that I can try to be aware if there is anything to smell. But then, if there is anything to smell, it just happens by itself. It is seen that there is nothing the "I" can do about that. It seems obvious now, but at first (only a couple of minutes ago haha), there was a strong sense of smelling being something very personal, because the sense of smelling taking place in my nose/head made this more personal to me than seeing. No it seems obvious that yes: the smelling happens in this body, but no: no one is doing smelling. There is just smelling.
Hearing - The same . . .
Hearing just happens. No one is doing hearing. There is no doubt about it.
Taste . . .
Again, as with smelling, there is a sense of it being very personal, because it happens in my mouth/head. But it is clear immediately that no one is 'doing' tasting. There is just tasting. There might be so many thoughts racing around in the head that there is less awareness of tasting, which strengthens the conviction even further that there is no one doing the tasting, as there is no one 'doing' the thinking either. There remains the sense that the "I" is doing awareness/doing the focussing. It sounds absurd to me, but I can't shake it off.
'Touch' may be a little more close to home - Do an experiment. Maybe close your eyes.
Let the hand rest on a surface or object.
Examine the experience of touch - Are there two clear parts in the experience? The object being touched, and the hand / body that is 'doing' the touching? Performing the sensation? Or is there just 'touch'.
With my eyes closed, there is an inner picture of my hands touching, and a sense that there are two different surfaces (my fingertips and that which is touched). But when investigating, I cannot distinguish two separate surfaces, or two clear parts in the experience of touching. There just seems to be one experience that is not defined by a clear dividing line between my finger tips and that which is touched. When I feel 'around' this messy table I am sitting on, there is just touch, there is no one who is doing touching, or creating the sensation of touch. There is just touch, it seems. Again, the sense that I am in charge of focussing the mind on the experience of touching.
In 'feeling' is there an 'I' doing it? Or it there just 'feeling'?

Sensations just arise in the body, no one is doing this. It just happens. There may be thoughts/emotions that trigger a bodily sensation/feeling, but these are just happening by themselves as well. There is no "I" who controls this, there is just this body-mind construct in which feeling happens it seems.

Xain, I feel a bit frustrated, basically the same as before. When looking for the "I" it is nowhere to be found, which is evident. When investigating the sense of I/self, which can still be very strong at times, I get stuck. This sense of I in itself is a thought/emotion that just comes into existence by itself, which results in a bodily sensation that happens by itself (I have got a headache now). I know intellectually that this frustration is perfectly okay, and that I will never get this by 'thinking my way out' (no one doing that either), but the tendency is still there.

Looking forward to your reply.

Yves

User avatar
Xain
Posts: 3509
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 9:31 pm
Location: Everywhere and Nowhere

Re: Who wants to guide me?

Postby Xain » Wed Dec 10, 2014 6:34 pm

Xain, I feel a bit frustrated, basically the same as before. When looking for the "I" it is nowhere to be found, which is evident.
Have no fear, you're doing great! Just follow along.
Don't be tempted to write what you think, simply write what you find and it will be OK.
Do the experiments honestly and report what is found.

As promised, let's investigate free-will and choice (and also control).

Choose one of the arms, it doesn't matter which.
Now when it is felt that the time is right, raise that chosen arm in the air.

Do this little experiment as many times as is wished, and examine the experience of doing this.
In witnessing the choosing and moving . . .
What can be found that is causing the arm to move?
What can be found that chooses the arm?

Is there an 'I' in this? A controlling 'I' or a choosing 'I'?
If there isn't such an 'I' to be found, then could 'I' in the statements just be an idea / a thought?

Either there is an 'I' that can be found like it is believed, some solid real separate 'thing', or there isn't.
If there isn't, then what is this 'I' in the statements?

Xain ♥


Return to “ARCHIVES”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests