Recognizing my non-dual nature

[Secrethippie]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
We grow up in a world that teaches us to be a self, a person that is a free agent in this world, making decisions on his own and that is happy or not. Yet, the moment you begin to search for this self, you realize there's nothing solid to find or grasp. This idea of a self, which we’ve taken as real for so long, is ultimately just that—an idea.

What are you looking for at LU?
I’ve been meditating for over five years, but for a long time, I didn’t believe in something like awakening. Then, about a year ago, I read Awake: It’s Your Turn by Angelo Dillulo, which profoundly shifted my perspective on what awakening really is, nothing more than realizing your true nature that already is and always has been. Since then, I’ve become increasingly aware of my own suffering and discomfort, especially the feeling of being a separate self. Through Angelo’s guided meditations, personal experiences in nature, and inquiry sessions with a friend further along the path, I’ve had moments of clarity—glimpses of not finding anything when I look for a "self." I’ve come to understand that as long as I identify with my thoughts and personal story, I’m reinforcing the illusion.

While I grasp this conceptually, I feel a gap between intellectual understanding and the deeper, transformative realization I’m seeking. Recently, I’ve felt stuck and unable to recognize any tangible progress, which has led to a sense of conflict. More and more distractions and doubts are arising in my mind, pulling me away from staying focused on the path toward liberation.

I feel that at this point, I would benefit from personal guidance and support to help me take the next step—to fully experience, beyond just theory, that I am not a separate self with a distinct experience.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I hope for a guide who can offer direction when I feel stuck, as I do now, and provide insights that help me see through the mental constructs I've created. I don’t expect guidance at every step, as I recognize this is a journey I ultimately have to walk myself. However, some direct pointers and guidance during difficult moments would be incredibly supportive. I hope this person can help me to create a momentum of not identying with thoughts and continuoulsy questioning my own experience.

I'm ready to fully surrender to this process, and I trust that my guide can help establish a sense of safety and trust that will allow me to let go even more deeply.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I’ve been meditating for years, much of it with guided meditations on the Waking Up app. As a yoga teacher, I've also trained extensively in the yogic tradition.

Less than a year ago, I developed a deeper interest in true realization, inspired by teachings from Adyashanti, Angelo Dillulo, and Mooji. Angelo Dillulo’s approach, in particular, introduced me to the power of inquiry, and I began to explore this practice. I’ve done many of his guided meditations and started an inquiry practice of my own, though I've struggled to maintain it consistently.

Some inquiry sessions with a friend who has experienced major shifts have been valuable as well, though keeping this practice consistently integrated has been challenging.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

[Noro]

Hello Secrethippie,

Would you like me to call you by this name or another name?

Welcome to LU, my name is Rowena and I am happy to be your guide.


THERE IS NO SEPARATE SELF

What comes up for you when reading there is no separate "self," never has been and never will be? It is all a made-up story?

Please share your immediate experience when you say or read those words, allow any thoughts that are emotionally charged, even if you think they might be irrational and any sensations that are noticed in the body.
Please keep to your direct experience and stay away from discussing thoughts or ideas about a separate self.

On the next page I am going to send a few details for you to look through.

With love,

Rowena

[Noro]

Some guidelines:

1. In order to keep the momentum going with this enquiry, please post your responses on a regular basis, it doesn't have to be daily, but If you are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. For this process to work you have to be focused on your DE (direct experience) of what's actually happening and describe your findings without relying on thought, memory, or imagination. Please avoid any long-winded analytical and/or philosophical answers'. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

3. Please put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading etc. for the duration of this investigation, unless it is LU based material. Put all your effort and attention in to seeing what is, as it is, with 100% honesty. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.

4. Please read the following documents from LU *carefully* and let me know if you have any reservations or doubts regarding them:

http://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/disclaimer/

and "Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU.
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041


5. Please make sure that you are subscribed to your thread. In the top left corner, next to "Post Reply" there is an icon that looks like a spanner. When you click on it there is a menu where you can select “Subscribe topic’. Click on it once. (To be sure that you are subscribed just refresh the page and if you click again should show “Unsubscribe topic”.)

6. Please answer questions individually and not group them together ( I try to always put them in blue text. But please answer all questions even if I miss using the blue text.) This will assist us in having a clear dialogue.

7. When replying to a question it makes it a lot easier to follow the enquiry using the 'Quote Function' to highlight the questions and answers. Here's a video link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ


With love,

Rowena

[Secrethippie]

Hi Rowena,

Thank you for offering your guidance. I did not realized you replied on my thread, only after I received your email today. You can call me Thomas.

What comes up for you when reading there is no separate "self," never has been and never will be? It is all a made-up story?

I notice there is a voice in my head that desperately wants my attention. Also I feel a strong uncomfortable sensation in the belly, chest and a tickling spread of sensations over the body, especially in the arms and legs.

When I read 'There is no seperate "self", my mind agrees with it, because I intellectually understand it. Still quite quickly my attention gets drawn to a thought about this 'No Self' instead of an experience as no self. Somehow it feels like my mind is fighting the fact that there is no self, and therefore really starts to beg for my attention. It finds different ways to do so, and mostly it succeeds at this. Sometimes it tells me that I actually need a self to manage certain things in this world. Sometimes it tells me that there is indeed no self and that I am so good and smart for realizing this. Sometimes it is just creating a lot of doubts, especially when I sit longer with the idea of no self. This sometimes makes me feel uncomfortable to remain in the inquiry.

However, sitting for a bit with this, I also experienced a moment where it felt like something inside me knows and feels this no self to be true. I still find it hard to put it in words, but I have felt it more often. When I look deeply, I cant find a central self, and also no proof for one that has ever existed, other than a thought telling me there is.

[Noro]

Hello Thomas,

It's great to get started with you! Please answer the questions in blue on a line to line basis. Try and avoid wordy descriptions or analysis. Just your direct experience through looking. Sometimes a Yes or No response is perfectly acceptable if that seems appropriate.

I notice there is a voice in my head that desperately wants my attention. Also I feel a strong uncomfortable sensation in the belly, chest and a tickling spread of sensations over the body, especially in the arms and legs.

Good start with looking. :)
Is there an actual voice to be found in the head, if so, where exactly in the head is it located?
What is this voice made of other than thoughts?
Can you describe the desperate wanting? Is this related to the "strong uncomfortable sensation in the belly, chest etc.?"
If so, can sensation actually be desperate without a thought label of "desperate"?
Is there an "I" or a "me" that can direct attention?
If so, where exactly can that "I" or "me" be found

When I read 'There is no seperate "self", my mind agrees with it, because I intellectually understand it.

Yes!

Still quite quickly my attention gets drawn to a thought about this 'No Self' instead of an experience as no self. Somehow it feels like my mind is fighting the fact that there is no self, and therefore really starts to beg for my attention. It finds different ways to do so, and mostly it succeeds at this.

What does the mind do to fight this "fact that there is no self" other than through many different thoughts that are believed?

Sometimes it tells me that I actually need a self to manage certain things in this world. Sometimes it tells me that there is indeed no self and that I am so good and smart for realizing this. Sometimes it is just creating a lot of doubts, especially when I sit longer with the idea of no self. This sometimes makes me feel uncomfortable to remain in the inquiry.

All these thoughts are natural and it is great that you notice the variety of thoughts going on and the different body sensations that arise when there appears to be agreement with a certain thought or a resistance to another thought.

This sometimes makes me feel uncomfortable to remain in the inquiry.

Some uncomfortable sensations (fear) are natural.

However, sitting for a bit with this, I also experienced a moment where it felt like something inside me knows and feels this no self to be true. I still find it hard to put it in words, but I have felt it more often. When I look deeply, I cant find a central self, and also no proof for one that has ever existed, other than a thought telling me there is.

This is wonderful! <3


EXPECTATIONS
First things first, let’s get your expectations out on in the open. Only fear and expectations can prevent clear seeing of no self. Please answer as truthfully as you can.

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

3. What do you want not to happen?

4. What are you hoping for?

5. What is missing?


With love,
Rowena

[Secrethippie]

Hi Rowena,

I already feel a sence of gratitude for you supporting me on this journey., thank you for all these questions!

Is there an actual voice to be found in the head, if so, where exactly in the head is it located?

I can't find its actual location, but somehow the letters seem to form themselves visually close to my eyes. It is difficult to find the exact location of where the voice is heard, but it seems that it arises and is received in the space where my head is.

What is this voice made of other than thoughts?

Nothing other than thoughts. It is imagery and internal sound (whatever that may be haha)

Can you describe the desperate wanting? Is this related to the "strong uncomfortable sensation in the belly, chest etc.?"

I feel the desperate wanting is like a survival mechanism of the apparant self. I noticed it before I started with inquiring into these questions that I (using I here for a lack of a better term), really wanted some distractions. It feels a bit like procrastrinating before doing a big task. And yes, just like with procrastinating, it is always accompanied by these uncomfortable sensations on the body parts that I mentioned. I feel the sensations are getting intensified when I pay some attention to them. I know that there is inherently nothing bad with these sensations, but still often times they cause me to seek destraction instead of looking into them, if that makes any sense. Perhaps there is some resistance to experience them.

If so, can sensation actually be desperate without a thought label of "desperate"?

No, it is only the thought label that makes it desperate. Sensation in itself is nothing but the senses coming in contact with stimuli.

Is there an "I" or a "me" that can direct attention?

I find myself a bit in no mans land when raising this question. Thoughts come up, saying yes, saying no, but I can't find a Me that is actually directing attention. Even when typing these words, and reading them subvocally, there does not seem to be anyone purposefully doing it. It is just happening. But there is the strong tendency insight myself to think: but still... it feels like there is a central executive during most of my day. It feels like going through life as Thomas, someone who can control and direct his experience.

If so, where exactly can that "I" or "me" be found

Nowhere, the sensations I was talking about intensify when I look for it tho.

What does the mind do to fight this "fact that there is no self" other than through many different thoughts that are believed?

Well, I don't know if this is the doing of the mind (in fact I have no idea even what the mind is), but it seems that these thoughts are charged with physical sensations and have an emotional layer attached to them. But yeah, its mostly just thoughts. Whatever is creating these thoughts and is bringing my attention to them is doing a very creative and effortful job. It feels like the best marketing agency in the world is operating in there.

Regarding your questions: here are my answers (these were really hard for me to answer I must admit, like literally who is answering them? haha):
1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?
I think there is no way to know this, but I like to think that I will go through life being fully connected to everyone and everything I come in contact with and not so occupied what what Thomas likes and dislikes. Of course "I" would like to believe it is the end of suffering, but I know this is the mind at play still, the ego also does not like to suffer. I guess plain simply, I just want to be at peace with life.

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?
Hopefully I can be of more support to others, by being an open space that receives and helps from his heart.
Hopefully I can let go of certain needs in my life, that I seem to be persuing now in order to hopefully become happy one day. To be okay with how my life is in each and every moment. I expect that the result will be that I am okay with whatever life is bringing to me and that I don't feel the need to improve life for the imaginary character Thomas. A character that I can be so critical towards. Of course there can still be a striving for growth, but just for the sake of growing, not as a means to an end.

3. What do you want not to happen?
Well I hope not to loose track of society or to feel bestranged to my family. I guess I already feel bestranged to the world, so that wouldnt matter too much haha, but I would not want my family to think I am a weirdo I guess. And this also counts for close friends. I also dont hope to loose my job as a trainer/coach.

4. What are you hoping for?
Freedom, feeling lots of love and connection, full embracing and experiencing my emotions.

5. What is missing?
Being loved, intimacy, peace, joy.

Sweet regards,
Thomas

[Noro]

Hi Thomas,

Im so glad that you are feeling supported, you are very welcome!

I can't find its actual location, but somehow the letters seem to form themselves visually close to my eyes. It is difficult to find the exact location of where the voice is heard, but it seems that it arises and is received in the space where my head is.

"seem to..."; "seems that..." Yes to this! In the same way that a mirage can appear in the desert offering the illusion that there is a body of water; to the one seeing the mirage it will 'seem' as if there must be water, and yet, upon inspection it is seen that there is no water, it was all an illusion.

I feel the desperate wanting is like a survival mechanism of the apparant self.

Yes this is probably the case. This apparent self has taken root as a strongly entrenched belief continually reinforced since the belief took hold.

I noticed it before I started with inquiring into these questions that I (using I here for a lack of a better term), really wanted some distractions. It feels a bit like procrastrinating before doing a big task. And yes, just like with procrastinating, it is always accompanied by these uncomfortable sensations on the body parts that I mentioned. I feel the sensations are getting intensified when I pay some attention to them. I know that there is inherently nothing bad with these sensations, but still often times they cause me to seek destraction instead of looking into them, if that makes any sense. Perhaps there is some resistance to experience them.

This is excellent noticing. It is great that you are able to see how distractions are used to divert from fully feeling body sensations. And the more this is noticed it is quite likely that the sensations will become intensified.

Can you take the moment when strong sensations occur to fully be in your body with those sensations without diverting?

But there is the strong tendency insight myself to think: but still... it feels like there is a central executive during most of my day. It feels like going through life as Thomas, someone who can control and direct his experience.

"Feels like...." is also OK.
Can you agree that just because it 'seems like' or 'feels like' there is a 'someone...' this doesn't make it an actual fact?

Whatever is creating these thoughts and is bringing my attention to them is doing a very creative and effortful job. It feels like the best marketing agency in the world is operating in there.

Yes to that!!


Regarding the questions about your expectations; these are all perfectly reasonable, but at the same time, just a reminder: only fear and expectations can prevent the clear seeing of no self.


HOW TO LOOK FOR THE NO SELF IN THE EXERCISES
There is a BIG difference between knowing that there is nothing, and seeing that there is nothing.

If you can’t see for yourself directly, you cannot describe what you see in your own words.
Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

COLORED SOCKS
If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to answer:
1. You can think about it, trying to remember, or guessing what colour they are.
2. You can have a look at your socks and see what colour they ACTUALLY are!
You will agree that only by looking you could be 100% certain, right?

DIRECT OR ACTUAL EXPERIENCE IS
Seeing
Hearing
Feeling or Sensing (without naming emotion as this is sensation plus thoughts/labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Cognizing or Thinking (but not the content of thinking. Thinking about content is just more thinking and diverts you from the direct experience).

Direct Experience is not conceptual, or made of thought.
Experiencing happens before thought arrives to describe or explain it.
The moment we attempt to communicate experience we introduce concepts. We then respond or identify with those concepts. Then that experience of responding gives birth to more stories (concepts) to which we respond and so on…


DIRECT EXPERIENCE OF DAILY ACTIVITIES

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities as simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of the experiencing of a cup of coffee

Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Feeling movement of breath, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thinking about drinking the coffee, simply = thinking

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists exactly like the one above. The point is to learn the difference between Actual / Direct Experience and the content of thought, which we made up.

Post several of your own observations in a list exactly like the one above, please, using the same word forms of your direct experiencing.

With love,

Rowena

[Secrethippie]

Hi Rowena,

Thank you for your message.

Can you take the moment when strong sensations occur to fully be in your body with those sensations without diverting?

Yes I try to do this more the past couple of days and realize that it are mostly the same sensory experiences, but that there is nothing bad about these sensations. Perhaps they feel a little bit uncomfortable because it is experienced so fully, but at the same time it is also completely fine they are there. I feel they are always kinda there, but that a label of frustration or anger or loneliness etc. frames these sensations as something bad.

Can you agree that just because it 'seems like' or 'feels like' there is a 'someone...' this doesn't make it an actual fact?

Yes it is not the same, as with your example of the color of my socks. I guess that my mind uses the feeling of a self as a way to reinforce the idea of a central self of experience.

I liked the exercise you gave me, because it brought me more awareness of the sensory input of my experience and the framing that the mind tries to do. I realized that during the day, most of the time I primarily pay attention to the content of the thinking, but if you just see it as thinking, just like the other senses, it looses its power and fades away quite quickly. I found it sometimes difficult to exactly recall the experience I had during an activity and write it down later, but here are some of my observations:


Writing emails

Seeing the words on the screen: image

Pressing the laptop keys: sensation

Feeling back against the chair: sensation

Hearing the birds outside: sound

Thinking about the content of the emails: thinking

Feeling the breath: sensation

Sitting on the couch:

Feeling my back against the back: sensation

Hearing the birds outside: hearing

Looking into the the room: image

Thinking about this exercise: thinking

Feeling a sense of calm: sensation

Feeling a sense of anxiety: sensation

Taking a walk outside:

Feeling the cold wind true my clothes: sensation

Feeling my feet touching the ground: sensation

Thinking about life: thinking

Worrying about the things I need to do: thinking

Seeing birds in the water: image

Seeing people: image

Thinking about what people think of me: thinking

Unpacking the groceries

Picking up the different ingredients: sensation

Thinking about where to put things: thinking

Having thoughts of frustration about my roommates: thinking

Having thoughts about my ex-girlfriend: thinking

Feeling calmness while focusing on the act itself: sensation

Trying to do work:
Hearing roommate singing: hearing

Feeling frustration for not being able to concentrate: thinking

Feeling sensations in my body: sensation

Noticing the stilness when he stops: sensation

Hearing the beards outside: hearing

Writing a summary for a book

Feeling my fingers typing the letters: sensation

Feeling my back against the chair: sensation

Feeling my feet on the ground: sensation

Hearing my laptop making noise: hearing

Seeing the pages: image

Reading the words subvocally: thinking

Trying to make sense of things in my own words: thinking

Getting distracted by thoughts about life: thinking

Thinking about a date from 2 days ago

Thinking about the rejection: thought

Blaming myself for not being good enough: thought

Feeling the frustration or shame: sensation

Feeling the breath moving in and out: sensation

Hearing sounds from a roommate: hearing

Looking at my computer screen: looking

Feeling sensations in my face: sensation

Eating my lunch

Tasting the food: sensation

Looking at the colors: image

Hearing my breathing: hearing

Thinking about how good the taste is: thinking

Hearing my roomate singing in the shower: hearing

Smelling the food: smelling

Scrolling on linkedin

Seeing people I know: image

Hearing the music I am playing: hearing

Thinking about the fact that I am not posting anymore: thinking

Noticing pain in my back: sensation

Feeling tickling sensations while doing the exercise

Having a zoom meeting:

Thinking about if other people recognize my facial expression: Thinking

Feeling my back against the chair: sensation

Looking at the others: image

Hearing the others talk: hearing

Feeling my back hurting: sensation

Feeling bored: thinking

Feeling anxious to talk: thinking



I am looking forward to your next reply!

With love,
Thomas

[Noro]

Hi Thomas,

Yes I try to do this more the past couple of days and realize that it are mostly the same sensory experiences, but that there is nothing bad about these sensations. Perhaps they feel a little bit uncomfortable because it is experienced so fully, but at the same time it is also completely fine they are there. I feel they are always kinda there, but that a label of frustration or anger or loneliness etc. frames these sensations as something bad.

It's great that you are able to notice and allow the sensations to be as they are. And they are not always comfortable, but once a sensation has "your" full attention then the label and story can be dropped and the sensations are seen as simply sensations.

Yes it is not the same, as with your example of the color of my socks. I guess that my mind uses the feeling of a self as a way to reinforce the idea of a central self of experience.

Absolutely! Keep on using the example of the color of your socks, it is really helpful.
Now look closely:
Can you find a mind?
What does the word or concept "mind" mean to you? (there's no right or wrong answer)
What happens when you drop the ownership label "my mind" ?
And please take note of any sensations.


Great work with the DE exercise!

I realized that during the day, most of the time I primarily pay attention to the content of the thinking, but if you just see it as thinking, just like the other senses, it looses its power and fades away quite quickly.

Yes, it's amazing how we can believe the stories woven by our thoughts, especially when they feel so personal.
Such thoughts are often pointers to familiar patterns of body sensations and I saw how well you observed that happening in some of the moments of direct experience that you shared

I found it sometimes difficult to exactly recall the experience I had during an activity and write it down later, but here are some of my observations:

It really doesn't matter if you can't recall exactly. When experience is looked at after the actual moment it is no longer DE, but that doesn't mean it isn't useful, especially when emotions are involved. You can think of it as "taking it to the lab". And once you settle in to that looking, it becomes DE again!! Thoughts about the experience become simply: thinking.
Emotions arising become simply: Sensations (and thought labels which can be dropped. etc.)



APPLE EXERCISE
Here's an exercise for you to get super clear on what direct experience is. You can use a photo of an apple or a real apple, or for that matter you can use another fruit or vegetable if you like.

When looking at an apple directly there's color; a thought saying "apple" and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."

What is seen for sure? Colors are seen; shapes maybe seen and thinking is seen.

What about the content of thought, what do thoughts describe?

Actual experience does not refer to thoughts (including descriptions) ABOUT something.

Actual experience (DE) is sound, seeing (colors and shapes), smell, taste, sensation and thinking, (but not the content of thought).

So is there really an 'apple' here or only color/shape and a thought about 'apple'?
Can 'apple' be found in direct experience?

While thoughts or descriptions are known, what they talk about can't be found in direct experience.


MIND LABEL EXPERIENCE
Here is an exercise which examines the way in which the mind labels experience - it takes about 20 minutes and you will need a pen a paper.

This exercise is broken into 10 minute lots.
For each 10 minute period pay attention to any bodily sensation i.e. is there any tightening, or any relaxing?

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.

For example:

I am sitting on a chair,
I am hearing a clock ticking,
I am looking at a computer screen,
I am feeling hungry.
I am thinking (about what to eat.)

Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs.

For example:

Sitting on a chair,
hearing clock ticking
looking at computer screen
feeling hungry (sensations)
thinking (label: hungry)

Finally, try the two versions together, first say the phrase with "I am" and next without: I am walking / walking

Pay attention to body sensations, watch what is happening in the body.
What is the body sensation when you say "I am ….."
What is the body sensation without the add-on of "I am…."?

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labelled and answer the following four questions:

1. Does one feel truer than the other, and If so, which one?

2. What is here without labels?

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?


Have fun!

With love,
Rowena

[Secrethippie]

Hi Rowena,

Thank you for the exercises, they were challenging and interesting at the same time.

Can you find a mind?

No I can't find a mind, I can notice seperate contents of the mind, like thoughts noises etc, but nothing tangible or experiental what you can call the mind.

What does the word or concept "mind" mean to you? (there's no right or wrong answer)

I think it is some kind of mechanism that is used to combine different sensory input (including thinking) into one seeming reality, and to make sense of that reality as well. Often times it is the internal voice that manifests this 'made sense'.

What happens when you drop the ownership label "my mind" ?

I can't find a mind, so there is also not "my mind". I guess there is just this feeling of a making sense of experience, and a strong pull to get my attention, but this is more a feeling of mind. I can't also find a me that owns this mind. This feeling of mind and the feeling of me co-exists together. It is the manifestation of me, if that makes any sense?

And please take note of any sensations.

I feel the strongest sensations most of the times in the chest, belly, arms, legs and forehead. That same tickling feeling I spoke about before. In the belly it is a little bit different. There it is more like this gut feeling. At the moment a little bit uncomfortable. In my forehead I sometimes feel a headache and I also feel it now.

So is there really an 'apple' here or only color/shape and a thought about 'apple'?
I could not find an apple, so took a banana haha. Looking at the banana, I see colors, shape and textures. Also there are thoughts about the banana, the color and the textures. Plain simply, without thought it would only be seeing. The thoughts create the apple, the color, the texture and shape.

Can 'apple' be found in direct experience?

No, referring to DE, the only things that can be found are seeing and thinking. The banana is content of the thinking.

Regarding the exercise:

What is the body sensation when you say "I am ….."
What is the body sensation without the add-on of "I am…."?

When I remove I am, I notice that I still feel the contracted area's, forehead, chest, belly, but that it moves more easily to a noticing of the whole sensory field of the body. Furthermore, when I do use "I am... I feel a stronger pull towards these contracted area's and somehow a tendency to stay there longer (reinforced about new thoughts about me). One question: isnt the labeling of experience always there? Even when saying: Hearing the birds outside, 'the birds outside' is still thinking. Even thinking 'hearing' is still content of thought and a label. But I guess in that sense it is impossible to describe DE right? The senses are happening without the thoughts, but thoughts are added as a kind of sixth sense, if that makes any sense? So the thoughts are not needed to experience the raw senses. In fact I guess nothing is needed to experience them. I am getting a little bit confused here haha. I notice something wants to make sense of all of this, but I dont need it to make sense.

1. Does one feel truer than the other, and If so, which one?

You could say that the I am just adds another label, and labels are less direct and therefore less true. It feels more alive, and intens, when you drop the I am. Saying it is more true feels like giving another label, but it feels more natural.

2. What is here without labels?

Just raw experience from the senses.

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

They don't affect the experience, as it is just another layer added to the experience itself. However when the label is believed to be true (of the real experience), it might cause a chain of thoughts altering the perception about the experience that already took place and that of the following experiences.

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

I found this a bit challenging, as I am noticing strong sensations everywhere in the body for the past days. But like I mentioned, I notice that my awareness is shifted from the contracted parts (when added I am), to more a full body sensory awareness (without I am)

Looking forward to your reply!

Loving regards,
Thomas

[Noro]

Hi Thomas,

Awesome investigating!!

I think it is some kind of mechanism that is used to combine different sensory input (including thinking) into one seeming reality, and to make sense of that reality as well.

Yes, good answer, the thinking mechanism (neuronal activity) seems geared towards trying to make sense of 'reality'.

Often times it is the internal voice that manifests this 'made sense'.

Just for clarity: what is this internal voice, and how does it manifest 'making sense'.

I can't find a mind, so there is also not "my mind".

Love this! How does it feel to realize that there's no such 'thing' as a mind?

I guess there is just this feeling of a making sense of experience,

You have answered the questions beautifully, and now I am digging in a bit further from the perspective of DE:

Can a feeling (sensation) do anything (like making sense of experience?)
What is it that makes sense and to whom? How does this work?

and a strong pull to get my attention, but this is more a feeling of mind.

When you read the above what is happening in DE?
Can attention belong to a "me"?
Can attention be directed? And if so, by what or whom?
A feeling of mind? (You mentioned above that you couldn't find a mind!)

I can't also find a me that owns this mind. This feeling of mind and the feeling of me co-exists together. It is the manifestation of me, if that makes any sense?

Yes, this makes sense. :) Now, staying in DE, (do not try and make sense!!!):

What is it that senses the feeling of me?
Whatever that is, and whatever it senses, are they separate?
Where is that which senses located?
Where is that feeling of me located?
Is that 'feeling of me' or 'sense of me' permanent?
If not, does it come and go?
If it can't be found, where does it go?
What knows it's gone?
If the self is the 'me' and then it disappears, how can a 'you' still be here?
Were 'you' ever here?

I feel the strongest sensations most of the times in the chest, belly, arms, legs and forehead. That same tickling feeling I spoke about before. In the belly it is a little bit different. There it is more like this gut feeling. At the moment a little bit uncomfortable. In my forehead I sometimes feel a headache and I also feel it now.

Isn't the feeling space of body sensations fascinating!

When I remove I am, I notice that I still feel the contracted area's, forehead, chest, belly, but that it moves more easily to a noticing of the whole sensory field of the body. Furthermore, when I do use "I am... I feel a stronger pull towards these contracted area's and somehow a tendency to stay there longer (reinforced about new thoughts about me).

Great!

One question: isnt the labeling of experience always there? Even when saying: Hearing the birds outside, 'the birds outside' is still thinking. Even thinking 'hearing' is still content of thought and a label. But I guess in that sense it is impossible to describe DE right? The senses are happening without the thoughts, but thoughts are added as a kind of sixth sense, if that makes any sense? So the thoughts are not needed to experience the raw senses. In fact I guess nothing is needed to experience them. I am getting a little bit confused here haha. I notice something wants to make sense of all of this, but I dont need it to make sense.

Yes, this is great understanding! In the DE exercise even wording the sense label is really too much. It is there as a concession, and as a good way to help 'the mind' look from the perspective of DE. Without thought we cannot describe, share or communicate experience.

In DE with ALL LABELS DROPPED,
Can there even be an actual experience?
Can a separate 'experiencer' be found?
Play with this!


1. Does one feel truer than the other, and If so, which one?

You could say that the I am just adds another label, and labels are less direct and therefore less true. It feels more alive, and intens, when you drop the I am. Saying it is more true feels like giving another label, but it feels more natural.

Lovely!


3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

They don't affect the experience, as it is just another layer added to the experience itself. However when the label is believed to be true (of the real experience), it might cause a chain of thoughts altering the perception about the experience that already took place and that of the following experiences.

Excellent looking!


4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

I found this a bit challenging, as I am noticing strong sensations everywhere in the body for the past days. But like I mentioned, I notice that my awareness is shifted from the contracted parts (when added I am), to more a full body sensory awareness (without I am)

Yes! You are really noticing body sensations at a more and more subtle level. And it is very normal that there will be strong sensations arising. It's as if the body might be saying "now at last I'm being noticed and so Im going to give it my all"!
(And that's just a story haha!!)


I will post another exercise on the next page!


With love,
Rowena

[Noro]

OBSERVING THOUGHTS

The direct experience of thought is also very important in the seeing through the self illusion. Take your time and really work through this exercise, it can be helpful to get a piece of paper and write it as it comes and in the flow of questioning and looking, clarity comes.

Sit quietly for about 15 minutes and notice the arising thoughts.
Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore the content and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.

Where are thoughts coming from and going to?

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

Can you predict your next thought?

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

Can you choose not to have painful, negative, or fearful thoughts?

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

What is a thought made off?

What can a thought do?

Can a thought think?

Can you find an "I" without a thought that says "I"?

Please answer ALL the questions.
Look as many times as it is possible during the day even for a few seconds.




With love,

Rowena

[Secrethippie]

Hi Rowena,

Thank you for your extensive replies, it is very much appreciated. This weekend I will be doing a little self retreat, which will give me more space to look:)

Just for clarity: what is this internal voice, and how does it manifest 'making sense'.

it uses words (subvocally and visually written out), to internalize that sensory input. I can't find the voice when I look for it at any specific location, but there seems to be this continous process of an inner chatter happening. It only manifest 'making sense' when I believe the words it creates. I am not sure what it is that is believing these words though, or is paying so much attention to it.

How does it feel to realize that there's no such 'thing' as a mind?

It feels a bit empty. Things are just coming and going and there is not one thing that creates my experience.

Can a feeling (sensation) do anything (like making sense of experience?)

The feeling itself is just experienced, it does not need to make sense of experience.

What is it that makes sense and to whom? How does this work?

Good question. The thing that tries to makes sense can't be foundd and also the one to who it makes sense to can't be found. It is purely the identification with and believe in the thoughts that arise, that creates the idea of making sense of the world. But thoughts/language makes sense in their own limited way. When I feel into this question, as I did a little bit with some of the other questions, I can't really find an answer, and somehow also don't feel inclined to find an answer.

When you read the above what is happening in DE?

In DE I experience:
Seeing the screen: image
Reading the words: thinking
thinking about my experience: thinking
Feeling sensations all over the body: sensation
Hearing the laundry machine: hearing
Feeling the breath; Sensation
Hearing the breath: hearing

Can attention belong to a "me"?

There is no me to begin with, at least I can't find it, so there is also no attention belonging to this me

Can attention be directed? And if so, by what or whom?

No, there is no one directing the attention. There is only a focus happening on a particular part of experiences (one of the senses), but there is no one choosing what to focus on. I guess whatever sense has more urgency to be noticed will be noticed.

A feeling of mind? (You mentioned above that you couldn't find a mind!)

True, there is no mind, but there is this feeling of contraction (a strong accumilation of sensations), accompanied by thoughts that creates the illusion that there is a mind. But yeah, nothing to find when I look for it.

What is it that senses the feeling of me?

What am I even? There is just a constant reformation of the senses. Nothing that notices it. But yet something seems to be aware, but I cant find what it is or where it is.

Whatever that is, and whatever it senses, are they separate?

There is just the sensing, so no seperation. Just the direct sensory experience. The objects that are sensed are the sensing as well as the one sensing them. There is nothing to be found seperate from the sensing. The object and subject can't be without eachother.

Where is that which senses located?

There is no one that senses. That which senses is located where the specific sense is experienced or felt, but even that exact location can't be found. The sensed and the sensing are one, they are not seperate from eachother.

Where is that feeling of me located?

It mostly feels to be behind my eyes, but upon closer inspection, that perspectice also changes. So no particular place.

Is that 'feeling of me' or 'sense of me' permanent?

The feeling of me seems to be always there, but how it is felt changes. There is this particular combination of sensations, like in the belly, forehead and chest, accompanied by thougths that create the idea that there is a me. But there is nothing that can be found, how do I still keep believing in this 'feeling of me' and what is believing it?

If not, does it come and go?

Well yes, it comes and goes in different forms. I guess sometimes I am also not captured by this feeling of me at all, but thoughts create this idea that the feeling of self is perpetual and always the same, but it is not.

If it can't be found, where does it go?

No idea how to answer this question, where does what go? The feeling of self is nothing tangible. It is only there when a combination of thoughts and sensations create the idea that it is there. But it is nothing in itself and therefore can't be anywhere.

What knows it's gone?

There seems to be this knowing quality always present in everything. But this knowing is not interested in if its gone or not. It just knows whatever is there in experience, and so what is not there is also not known or experienced.

If the self is the 'me' and then it disappears, how can a 'you' still be here?

There is no me, anywhere. But still I am desperately trying to find something that is me, the real me. But is there nothing? Am I nothing? What is trying to convince me that I am something?

Were 'you' ever here?

I am, but I am not in any particular location, and it is not the me that I think I am. That has never been and never will be other than a thought. But I am aware. Or maybe it is even better to drop the I and to say, there is awareness, there is knowing.

In DE with ALL LABELS DROPPED,
Can there even be an actual experience?
Can a separate 'experiencer' be found?
Play with this

!
When you drop all labels, hence don't go into the content of the thoughts that arise, there is just experience, but there is no way to talk about the experience. There is just the coming and going of the different senses that form the experience. It is quite peaceful and calm and also interesting to keep noticing whatever arises. Everyting just drops away the moment you notice it. If I drop the thoughts, I don't even know what I am looking for? Because there is no one to look and nothing to look for?

Can a separate 'experiencer' be found?

I can't find it other than as a thought. But who is looking for something? What am I even looking for? What is there to realize other than just the senses coming and going? It feels like I am on the edge of realizing something, but at the same time there is nothing to realize and no one to realize. How come it still feels that something is missing? The field of sensations are strongly intensifying when I investigate these questions. It is like something is resisting me to look further. I feel there is also some kind of fear behind it.

I will answer the other exercise in another reply!

Loving regards,
Thomas

[Secrethippie]

I will still tune into these questions tomorrow as well, but here are my answers:

Where are thoughts coming from and going to?
- No particular location. They just arise and pass.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
- No they arise all by themselves

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
- I have no control over my thoughts whatsoever, just like with the other senses

Can you predict your next thought?
- the prediction in itself is a thought that I did not create, but came up all by itself. One thought can lead (cause) another thougth to follow it up tho

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
- No, there is no influence there. In fact, thoughts will more often be negative naturally

Can you choose not to have painful, negative, or fearful thoughts?
- No, the more you try, the more likely these thougths will come up haha

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
- Nope, I don't even know where the choosing would take place. Who is choosing?

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?
- Nope, they appear randomly without a preference

What is a thought made off?
- an image, or appearing of letters, accompanied by a label (subvocal voice), but it is nothing tangible of course, so no clue what it is made off

What can a thought do?
- Not much other than appear, and perhaps cause another thought to appear.

Can a thought think?
- No, thoughts just come and go, they don't think or do anything

Can you find an "I" without a thought that says "I"?
- No, just a cluster of sensations that is always changing, no I without the thought. It is so crazy, how do I still believe I am a I?

[Noro]

Hello Thomas,

.....there seems to be this continous process of an inner chatter happening. It only manifest 'making sense' when I believe the words it creates. I am not sure what it is that is believing these words though, or is paying so much attention to it.

Look into what is actually a belief.
Usually there is a body sensation that appears to resonate with a thought, either a
sensation of contraction or expansion. This could be due to our early conditioning and memories, some mechanism appears to subconsciously track present experiencing and thoughts and through body sensation seems to either affirm or discard as whether relevant or not for attention.

Perhaps a bit like this:
Did you ever believe in Santa when you were little? How was it?
Can you imagine how a child who does believe in Santa feels when told that Santa will come and pay a visit soon? :)
Now, as an adult, is there still a belief in a Santa?

True, there is no mind, but there is this feeling of contraction (a strong accumilation of sensations), accompanied by thoughts that creates the illusion that there is a mind. But yeah, nothing to find when I look for it.

"....Creates the illusion that there is a mind" Yes!

The feeling of me seems to be always there, but how it is felt changes. There is this particular combination of sensations, like in the belly, forehead and chest, accompanied by thougths that create the idea that there is a me. But there is nothing that can be found, how do I still keep believing in this 'feeling of me' and what is believing it?

You may see clearly that the self is an illusion but still feel a sense of self, a "ME" or an "I".

There is a 'feeling' and a 'lablel: Me"
Investigate this a little:

Write the word "ME" on a piece of paper. Look at the word, is that YOU?

Speak the word “ME” silently; be aware of any sensations or responses to this word.
Are any of these reactions in your body or mind by themselves YOU?

Now say the word “ME” aloud. Is that sound YOU?

Is the combination of any of these, the word, the sound, the thought "ME" who or what your are?”

Now do the same exercise with the words "I exist."

Is the thought, "I exist" who or what you are?

What happens when you remove the label "I exist" ?

What's left?

When you drop all labels, hence don't go into the content of the thoughts that arise, there is just experience, but there is no way to talk about the experience. There is just the coming and going of the different senses that form the experience. It is quite peaceful and calm and also interesting to keep noticing whatever arises. Everyting just drops away the moment you notice it. If I drop the thoughts, I don't even know what I am looking for? Because there is no one to look and nothing to look for?

Beautiful. <3

How come it still feels that something is missing? The field of sensations are strongly intensifying when I investigate these questions. It is like something is resisting me to look further. I feel there is also some kind of fear behind it.

Stay with this. Fully allow any sensations that arise, be curious, stay with the sensations and drop all labels.

The belief in the existence of an independent, autonomous separate self has been continually reinforced until now and many of our beliefs have been created as survival mechanisms, so it is natural that there is some kind of fear sensations being experienced.


Can you find an "I" without a thought that says "I"?

- No, just a cluster of sensations that is always changing, no I without the thought. It is so crazy, how do I still believe I am a I?

Crazy eh! Keep on looking! :)


FRIEND/STRANGER

Bring up a thought about a character labeled "friend."
Then bring up a thought about a character labeled "stranger."
Compare these thoughts.

Is there a difference in these thoughts?
Is there a true difference or is it just different content?

Now, bring up a thought about a character labeled "friend."
After that, look at a thought about the character labelled "me.”

Is there a difference?
Is there anything special about thoughts with the content "me-character?"
Notice any sensations arising, allow them to be without labelling and return to the thought inquiry.
Let me know what is found.


With love,
Rowena