Jivan is looking for a guide.

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Jivan
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Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2012 5:58 pm

Jivan is looking for a guide.

Postby Jivan » Sun Jul 01, 2012 7:38 pm

Hi, i'm a one finger typer so please bear with me.
I would very much like to do the one on one , seeing through the self.
I feel quite nervous.

Jivan.

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Patrick
Posts: 803
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2012 10:29 am
Location: Belgium

Re: Jivan is looking for a guide.

Postby Patrick » Sun Jul 01, 2012 8:18 pm

Hi Jivan,

Welcome, one finger typing is not a problem for communication, take all the time needed.
Typing here happens sometimes with two fingers :-)

What is the self you want to see through?
Is there really an 'I' that is nervous or is this just a feeling in the body followed by a thought labeling this sensation?

Warm regards,
Patrick

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Jivan
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Re: Jivan is looking for a guide.

Postby Jivan » Sun Jul 01, 2012 8:59 pm

Hi Patrick,

Thankyou for responding.
The self I want to see through is the fearful self.

When i look at it, yes i see it is afeeling in the body followed by a thought, but there seems to be someting in the back of it.

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Patrick
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Re: Jivan is looking for a guide.

Postby Patrick » Sun Jul 01, 2012 9:21 pm

Could you tell more about this 'seems to be something in the back of it'?
What kind of sensations, feelings, thoughts?

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Jivan
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Re: Jivan is looking for a guide.

Postby Jivan » Sun Jul 01, 2012 10:29 pm

Like an observer.
A sense of watching.

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Patrick
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Re: Jivan is looking for a guide.

Postby Patrick » Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:46 am

What is real and what is imagination?
Direct experience is real. A thought is also real. This are experiences.
Seeing, sensing, hearing, smelling, tasting happens. A thought happens also.
There is hearing, then a thought comes in with a label: ‘sound’. The another thought: ‘ I like that sound’, then a feeling, then a thought ’this feels good’, ….

The content of a thought is not real because it comes after an experience. It labels an experience or relates to an other thought or feeling.

When looking, there is only looking. The object that is seen and seeing are one. No seeing without object is possible. The mind makes the split between both with labels.
There is also no subject in this seeing. This sense of watching comes from sensations around the eyes while seeing. The mind labels this a watcher.

So is this sense of self, the ‘I’ a mingling of bodily sensations, thoughts and feelings. It is not an entity that is independent, that exists on his own. It is not real.
The Witness, the Watcher is the most subtle idea of an ‘I’ formed by the mind.

Look at a direct experience. Notice how it happens and how afterwards the mind comes in with labels.
Is there someone doing the looking?
Is there someone in control of thoughts?

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Jivan
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Re: Jivan is looking for a guide.

Postby Jivan » Mon Jul 02, 2012 1:26 pm

That's very good. Wow. Just for a second I really got that there is no real self, in fact that it is impossible.

What you said about the sense of watching coming from sensations around the eyes and the mind labels this a watcher. That made me gasp.

I don't know why I said "just for a second" i think I am expecting it to fade. But I really did SEE it.

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Patrick
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Location: Belgium

Re: Jivan is looking for a guide.

Postby Patrick » Mon Jul 02, 2012 3:15 pm

How is it to see this?

Continue to look how experiences are labeled by the mind.
Could you find any 'I', 'me'?

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Jivan
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Re: Jivan is looking for a guide.

Postby Jivan » Mon Jul 02, 2012 4:00 pm

It's a relief. Nothing has really changed, I still have back pain, still get irritated.

I will keep looking.

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Patrick
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Re: Jivan is looking for a guide.

Postby Patrick » Mon Jul 02, 2012 7:08 pm

Nice. Just notice how everything happens.

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Jivan
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Re: Jivan is looking for a guide.

Postby Jivan » Mon Jul 02, 2012 7:12 pm

I am looking at how experience happens. It just appears.
There is no controlling it. Taking back pain as an example, there is a sensation, but without labelling I do
Not know it is even pain. I don't know what anything is without labelling.

Also I cannot find anyone who is feeling pain. Actually no one is looking.

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Patrick
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Re: Jivan is looking for a guide.

Postby Patrick » Mon Jul 02, 2012 9:09 pm

Is there a separate individual who is experiencing?
Do you exist as an individual?

Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

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Jivan
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Re: Jivan is looking for a guide.

Postby Jivan » Tue Jul 03, 2012 12:07 am

No seperate individual who is experiencing.

No existance as an individual.

No "me" ever.

Just thoughts appearing.

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Patrick
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Re: Jivan is looking for a guide.

Postby Patrick » Tue Jul 03, 2012 12:37 pm

It’s clear that you see it.

Could you answer also the following questions:

Explain in detail what the self is and how it works.

How does it feel to be liberated?

How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about no you.

What was the trigger?

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Jivan
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Re: Jivan is looking for a guide.

Postby Jivan » Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:25 pm

The self is a story, a fiction. It seems to work somewhat like a computer program, certain inputs produce certain results,although sometimes there are glitches or unexpected results. There may seem tobe "improvements" or
"disasters" its still just a story, maybe a beautiful story, a sad story, a horrible story........

There really is no "liberation" as such. Who is liberated from what? But having said that, there's a lightness, a
Sweetness.

Probably wouldn't even try, but "if you put a gun to my head".......
No, sorry, nothing is coming up.

The trigger was the thing about sensation around the eyes.

Thankyou Patrick.


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