I need help

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Tommy
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I need help

Postby Tommy » Sat Jun 30, 2012 5:16 am

My name is Tommy and I'm chinese living in Hong Kong. I've been on the search for more than ten years, tried everything from shaktipat initiation, meditation, retreats with various teachers, reading all kinds of books and I'm tired and have given up for a few years. Stumble upon this website and feel like giving it one last desperate attempt. Can someone help? Thank you!

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Eloratea
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Re: I need help

Postby Eloratea » Sat Jun 30, 2012 8:35 am

Dear Tommy,

here is first question for you: do you exist?

Of course there is this experience, awareness, thoughts, sensations, body with the name...
But you, separate self, is there?
Be honest and look deeply.

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Tommy
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Re: I need help

Postby Tommy » Sat Jun 30, 2012 9:12 am

Thank you for your help Eloratea.

I don't know if a separate self, a "me" or "I" is needed to cognize. It seem to me that experience, awareness, thoughts, sensations, come on its own accord whether a separate self is there or not. Thoughts or feelings of me were overlaid on awareness, sensations, and experiences. Since I have this feeling of "me" at this point, I have to honest say that there is a separate self.

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Eloratea
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Re: I need help

Postby Eloratea » Sat Jun 30, 2012 9:35 am

Does that feeling of “me” prove existence of self?
Can you describe that feeling?
When it comes into being? Are there some sensations in the body or some thoughts connected with it?
We focus here on direct experience here and now. It helps greatly to clear the mind.

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Tommy
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Re: I need help

Postby Tommy » Sat Jun 30, 2012 10:20 am

The feeling of "me" is a contraction of awareness from the field of perception to the body and then to the area around the heart. To enhance that feeling, thoughts of who I am has to be added. This feeling of me comes into being only when I think about it. Intellectually, the feeling of "me" does not proof existence of self, the thought/feeling of "me" becomes an experience on demand, not thinking about it, then there is only awareness, and sensations.

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Eloratea
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Re: I need help

Postby Eloratea » Sat Jun 30, 2012 7:57 pm

Is it true than to say that "I" is just a thought?
When believed to be real it causes sensations in the body, as many other thoughts. But there is just life and energy flow. Nothing really personal.
Observe the processes like hearing, seeing, breathing.
Is there a doer: hear-er, see-er, breath-er, or there are always just hearing, seeing, breathing?

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Tommy
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Re: I need help

Postby Tommy » Sun Jul 01, 2012 5:10 am

Eloratea,

I did just that last night before receiving your instructions, the discovery was that the "I" or "me" was just an add on thought, after the fact. There were no doer, seeing was happening, hearing was happening, breathing was happening with or without the "I". With further investigation, the "I" just link a whole bunch of thoughts together to form a story, without the "I", there is no story and no suffering. Seeing that, I can see that the joke was on "me". A big chunk of "meness" fell off under scrutiny, and this is the first time in my life that I look so closely and intensely.

There were fear, how to navigate life without this "I". Slowly, a calmness came in and I just surrender to pure seeing, breathing, feeling, without the middleman. There was also worries that this "I" will come back as a very old habit, clearly seeing that it was just a lie, a fake entity, there is a knowing that it won't be able latch on for too long.

Thank you so much for helping, I am so grateful for your guiding me. Please continue with "me" until this shift is permanent. Thank you, thank you!!!

with love

Tommy

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Eloratea
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Re: I need help

Postby Eloratea » Sun Jul 01, 2012 10:06 am

Dear Tommy,

Shift is permanent, once seen can’t be unseen!
It can be talked only about stabilizing or deepening of the “state” as the old patterns and stored beliefs will unfold. But it will happen to no one (as it was always the case, despite the belief that it was otherwise) and it can be looked through, again and again.
For that phase there is an after care LU group on FB and some parts on this forum, accessible after the formal confirmation here. Of course we stay in touch as long as needed, no worry.

Now could you please answer the following questions from your new perspective:
  • Is there you in any way or form; was there ever any solid separate self?
    Could you describe the mechanism of this illusion of self and how does it feel to see this?
You can take your time, go somewhere in nature, see how this unitary experience without experiencer fits in a broader picture of interconnectedness of life.

Much love.

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Tommy
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Re: I need help

Postby Tommy » Mon Jul 02, 2012 4:43 am

Dear Eloratea,

Let me clarify what had happened that night. After intense looking into the existence of "I/Me" and saw the absurdity of it all, a hugh chuck of this "I/Me" fell off and for a few hours, the normal feeling of "I/Me" cannot be found and the first thing noticed was that breathing was effortless, thoughts were so few that can scrutinize one at a time. When inquired, who had these thoughts, one can clearly see that there were no one having any thoughts and thoughts just arise by itself.

If this losing of self was enlightenment, then enlightenment was really over-rated. Thoughts came in as to how to function in business with this new perspective and fear came rolling in.

Slowly, there was an urge to hold on to this experience and part of the experiencer returned. Now, one day later, let me answer your question without that heightened state of awareness and in complete honesty:

Even though a big chunk of the sense of self fell of, it can still be located, the aftermath of the experience had left me with the full conviction that there were no separate self in any way or form, behind this body mind there is only awareness, pure awareness. "I/Me" is simply a thought and that is all. The unitary experience without the experiencer that night was gone and even though "I" wish to have it back, there is a realization that the old habitual "I/Me" wanted to grab hold of the experience to enhance its existence and the absurdity was seen through immediately.

The illusive self, the "I/Me" was the only thing/link that piece together random events in life to create stories, drama, and various emotions from these events. Pure awareness without the self is just that, just what is. The illusive self seize imagery in awareness and string them together with other thoughts to form happy or sad childhood,
good or bad marriage, label and judge everyone around us, actually, there is only awareness without meaning nor
purpose, and in that awareness, there is only one without another. Seeing how the "I/ME" function, one can only laugh at how silly the whole thing is, including the silly search of enlightenment....

Eloratea, there is a knowing that this is just the beginning of something that is going to end, the beginning to end an old habit, to part with a dying self which never existed. I'm not planting a flag and claim that I'm done, on the contrary, can you help me to go deeper so that I can liberate myself from myself?

Thank you so much for your kindness,

Much love

Tommy

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Eloratea
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Re: I need help

Postby Eloratea » Mon Jul 02, 2012 5:46 am

Dear Tommy,

It was a pleasure; and seeing happened pretty fast and easily :)

I will pm you some links that might be of help for you right now. Yes, it is the beginning…

Could you describe for the others reading this: was there some final trigger made you see this?
And how would you describe the illusion of self to someone who never heard about it?
Thank you.

Keep in touch,
Love.

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Eloratea
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Re: I need help

Postby Eloratea » Mon Jul 02, 2012 7:56 am

Here is one more question came from another guide:
Who is "myself" who needs to be liberated and from what?

:)
Stay well!

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Tommy
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Re: I need help

Postby Tommy » Mon Jul 02, 2012 11:36 am

Dear Eloratea,

From reading Ramana Marharshi's books, the suggestion by him was to ask yourself the question "who am I", and it never work for me. That evening, questions that constantly popped into the mind needing answers were, " do I need
a ME to function?" or " was the "I" necessary for hearing, seeing, feeling?" , "what was the function of this "I" ? . Normally, this kind of inquiry gets very intellectual and it gave me headaches. However, that night, it lead to something delightfully simple and for the first time it opened up to the possibility that there might be no "I/Me" other than a belief picked up or taught and left unexamined until it became the gospel truth. These questions kept leading me deeper and deeper into what life be like without the "I" and whats left without a doubt was pure awareness. I thought about my conflicts with my business partner and realized that there was no "me" and therefore cannot even find a person nor energy nor angry emotions for a random situation with no meaning unless a "I/ME" was artificially nudged into the whole thing. In short, no self no conflict.

To describe the illusion of self to someone is the hardest question you have given me so far and lets give it a try.
The only certainty in life to most everyone is, I exist. There seem to be someone in/behind us directing all our actions including our seeing, hearing, thinking, feeling, tasting and this someone we generally refer to as "I/Me".

The sequential order was that first there was I, then I see, I hear, I feel etc. . Then this "I" that was separate from others we called "you", developed relationships with each other and new labels like father, mother, king, pauper came about. The "I" further give meanings to random events by joining them together to form a story that can arouse
different emotions like happiness or sadness, it goes on an on and every individual "I" have created a world of stories for themselves.

If we stop for one second to take a hard look at the authenticity/reality of our personal "I" and tried to locate it physically or emotionally, looking without the baggage of religion/spirituality/beliefs, just simply looking as a simple innocent kid, there might be a possibility that we can see that we were wrong all along. Hearing, seeing,
feeling, heart pumping, breathing and so on happens, with or without this "I". Then we might realize that the "I/ME"
is just a thought, just like any other thought that has no substance. All suffering stem from this thought, all dramas
were created by it and true liberation start from liberating yourself from yourself.

Last but not the least "no one needs to be liberated ". The self looking for liberation is nonexistence, no one needs liberation and no one is left to enjoy liberation. There is only awareness without the awarer and experience without the experiencer.

Thank you once again,

Much love

Tommy

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Eloratea
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Re: I need help

Postby Eloratea » Mon Jul 02, 2012 7:38 pm

Thank you. :)
This was beautiful,
Love.


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