Well, then. Shall we?

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Delma
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Well, then. Shall we?

Postby Delma » Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:03 am

Yep, I'm a red. Been reddened for quite a while but this is going to be my first thread on this board.

Do you gamble at all? My bet, here, is that you'll lose yourself in the process.

So.... Want to get this started?
There is no "I" doing this inquiry. There is no "I" looking for the "I".

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susanlee
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Re: Well, then. Shall we?

Postby susanlee » Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:56 am

I will take that bet.

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Re: Well, then. Shall we?

Postby Delma » Thu Jun 28, 2012 5:20 pm

Terrific, welcome!

To get started, let's see the landscape. Can you tell me where you are in your search? How did you get to this point? We're going to end up putting all of it aside as we work, but it will be good for me to understand what perspective you come from... that will help identify any possible pitfalls.

The second thing I ask is that you believe nothing I say. Zero percent. What you'll need to do, and this is absolutely critical, is to test every statement I make. That's because the insight needs to be yours alone. The fact of there not being a tangible self is a truth that you will verify with 100% certainty, to the point where even if you come to doubt it at any time, you'll be able to use the tools we work with to test that doubt again and again. (The answer, you'll find, won't waver. It will always remain the same)

So, let's get started. Looking forward to it!
There is no "I" doing this inquiry. There is no "I" looking for the "I".

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Re: Well, then. Shall we?

Postby susanlee » Fri Jun 29, 2012 4:30 am

Where I am in my search.
Its been decades long. Was very devoted TM meditator for 26 years (1969-1995). Then one day in 1995 decided to quit TM (I still love TM and all of my time with it, but was compelled to look elsewhere.) I started looking around and found many wonderful teachers through books and in person; Ramana Maharishi, Papaji, Ramesh Balsekar, Nisargadatta, Prasad, Arjuna, Satyam Nadeen, Eckhart Tolle, Byron Katie, Abraham, Course in Miracles, Ho'oponoopono, Mooji, Gangaji, Eli and many others. I have had some very nice experiences at times of transcending a sense of self, and that always faded.

In fall of 2001 something happened, (I don't know what exactly) but I no longer felt any sense of suffering. I felt content and gave up all spiritual seeking for 7 years. (I would still say that I had not awakened or anything, so I don't know how or what happened that I was suddenly content) Didn't read any books, didn't attend any satsangs or retreats, just led a quiet, anonymous life being a mother and working as a manager of an apartment community.

Then a friend told me to watch a video of Jeff Foster and one thing led to another and a whole new body of information came regarding the fact that people are popping into awaking at a very rapid pace and as the experiences and teachings are described it seems there is an infinite variety of stories. I feel that I have not popped like Jeff or Bentinho or Adyashanti, etc. I still identify with this character called susan, so I guess I am a seeker again, but from a place of being very content rather than frantic and desperate.

Also, a couple of month's ago the thought came that I am open to being of service(whatever that is) and I said a little prayer for guidance about that. Up until then my attitude was I have saved myself and everyone else could save themselves. An "Every man for himself" type of attitude. I really couldn't understand how all these spiritual teaches can stand it...answering all these stupid questions over and over and over.....such patience....didn't appeal to me at all. Even though I am infinitely grateful that they do.

I would love for you to win the bet and for me to lose myself.

love, susan

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Re: Well, then. Shall we?

Postby Delma » Fri Jun 29, 2012 2:35 pm

Hi susanlee,

Thank you for that background. It's going to help me more than it will help you, though, I think. And I'll tell you why....

This direct pointing method is surprisingly simple and factual. It's about packing away everything you've learned about spirituality, certainly, but it's more than that. It's about packing away *everything* you've learned, right down to the very basics taught to you as a baby, as a child. It can seem challenging, but as you've said, people are popping at a rapid pace. Let me give you a few pointers to remember as we go through this.

This is about seeing things very plainly and directly, what is seen in the absence of thought.

This is something 'you' are seeing right now. It's very matter of fact.

So... what do you need to do? Well, let's take a look at what the self is. Let's look at where it is. And we'll do this simplisticly because the idea is to get underneath thought to the layer of what's true in Direct Experience.

Ok, Let's roll.... And good luck. ;)


Question: Outside of a thought, belief, or memory, where or what is Susan?
There is no "I" doing this inquiry. There is no "I" looking for the "I".

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Re: Well, then. Shall we?

Postby susanlee » Fri Jun 29, 2012 4:38 pm

seen plainly and directly in the absence of thought......outside thought, belief or memory, where or what is susan.....

have been sitting here for an hour or so with the above guidance .....looking at the room and objects in the room and outside my window and am not sure if seeing in absence of thought is possible.....thoughts seem to be steadily streaming along with seeing shapes, colors.....some sounds, sensations, ....very pleasant though....kind of reminds me of when I was a very young child and everything was fascinating.

Where or what is susan outside thought, belief or memory? So far, the answer is 'don't know' and yet in spite of that, I can't shake the belief she is 'something' and she is 'here'. Contemplating this question feels like I am hitting my head against an invisible wall...very frustrating.....also at brief moments pleasurable.

I will be leaving for the office in a few minutes and will be gone for about 9 hours. I plan to keep this question as much as possible and will be back at the end of the day. I usually am at the office from 9 - 6 or so (pst). I will let you know what I find, if anything. Don't know if it is possible to find her, except as a conviction that she 'is'.

with love and gratitude for your time, susan

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Re: Well, then. Shall we?

Postby Delma » Fri Jun 29, 2012 4:41 pm

Hi Susan,

That wall is the perfect place to be. Push hard at it.

Looking forward to your next post! :)
There is no "I" doing this inquiry. There is no "I" looking for the "I".

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Re: Well, then. Shall we?

Postby Delma » Fri Jun 29, 2012 11:01 pm

Oh, Susan... a couple of things I've thought about. When you say that you're not sure you can see the absence of thought, there's something to understand about that. The 'absence of thought' is not needed. A common misconception is that thought should be stopped or paused. Not at all. Thought will come up and there's no controlling it, so don't worry about it being there. Let it be. That's what thought does. We'll work on seeing what thought is rather than trying to wrestle with it.

The second thing is about the pleasant feeling experienced while looking for the self outside of thought, belief, or memory. What that was, was an Experience. That's not it, not what we're looking for. We're looking for the fact of reality... the truth about the self. Sometimes being strongly rooted in a spiritual search can leave a person with a goal. That goal is often a 'good feeling' such as peace, love, and bliss. And this is another important point to remember as we go through this... Peace, love, and bliss may appear as a result of seeing the truth, but that is not what we're looking for. We're looking for the facts which when seen, allows peace, love, and bliss to appear. Don't look for those things right now. Look only for the facts.

Lastly, (grin) the fact that you've come to a wall is significant. Don't push by it, push at it. It's your testing ground. Eventually you will come back with questions, but allow yourself to really examine what's happening at this point.

Then come back and tell me what's left of Susan. We'll look closely at your findings.


:)
There is no "I" doing this inquiry. There is no "I" looking for the "I".

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Re: Well, then. Shall we?

Postby susanlee » Sat Jun 30, 2012 4:21 am

ok, i've been sitting here since returning home from work (about 3 hrs now) and asking what and where am i, The 'where?' answer seems easy, I am 'here' with myself. that seems obvious.

But the 'what?' answer seems impossible to answer. I have been examining every answer that seems at all possible such as an essence, a conglomeration of matter, or a conglomeration of sensibilities, or a personality, and ego, or a sense of being, a first memory of existing, to a person that others have told me I am, or just 'I am me' or 'I am nothing'. As I follow the thread of each possible answer, I am eventually checkmated by the criteria that susan must be outside of thought, belief or memory. I realize that the checkmate is the source of frustration or sense of hitting an invisible wall.

Now that I think about it I can't imagine a 'here' outside thought, belief or memory either, so I guess I was wrong about that being an easy answer. I was so focused on 'what' that I ignored the same conundrum with 'here'. Same exact checkmate.

I am ready to say its impossible to answer this question without using thought, belief or memory,,,so does that mean I must be thought, belief & memory? What am I outside of that? Am I anything outside of thought, belief and memory? Maybe I am nothing outside of that, Yuck....that seems really awful and depressing. now my thoughts are going in circles and getting nowhere, from I am positive I am 'something', to I am supposed to get it, that I am beyond something and I just can't get it. and I am feeling depressed and fearful and all mentally agitated. I have the thought that I am the only person in the history of seekers not able to pop.

I feel more confused that when I started trying to answer this question. I think I will take a break for an hour or so and hopefully calm down and start over fresh. It is a good question and I really want to know the answer in a way that is real and undeniable.

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Re: Well, then. Shall we?

Postby susanlee » Sat Jun 30, 2012 7:07 am

ok i'm back and ready for another go...I noticed your advice to not push by it, push at it and really examine what's happening. You also used the phrase 'we're looking for the fact of reality'. I don't know exactly what 'push by' and push at' mean in this context.

"examine what's happening ...just the facts...." that seems more possible. thinking is happening, thoughts are happening. what are thoughts? thoughts are certainly not material....I would call them puffs of mental images. what are puffs of mental images?....nothing actually, and yet they seem to really be something, I experience them......oh dear, i seem to be in the same circular swing as when asking what am i. also could say a puff of mental image, which is actually nothing, and still I am not swayed from my belief that I am something......this is just stumping me. I am getting very sleepy and guess I will give up and go to sleep and go at it again tomorrow.

just the facts.... seems to be that
reality (therefore susan) is nothing but a mental image
and
reality (therefore susan) must be something since it is experienced (even if experienced only as a mental image).

The fact of reality is I have no evidence or undeniable proof that susan is anything or anywhere and I am frustrated because I am positive that she is something and she is here.

going to bed, be back in the morning.

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Re: Well, then. Shall we?

Postby susanlee » Sat Jun 30, 2012 5:00 pm

final answer. susan is only inside thought, belief or memory. Outside thought, belief or memory - no susan, no place, no thing.

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Re: Well, then. Shall we?

Postby Delma » Sat Jun 30, 2012 5:13 pm

Susan! This is really something! You blasted right on through to honestly take a good look at reality. *claps*

Now, tell me about your questions. :) Is there are Susan anywhere at all? Is there confusion? How can I help?
There is no "I" doing this inquiry. There is no "I" looking for the "I".

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Re: Well, then. Shall we?

Postby Delma » Sat Jun 30, 2012 5:14 pm

I will be gone for a few hours today but am really looking forward to your reply.

Well done, friend. We have more to look at too. :)
There is no "I" doing this inquiry. There is no "I" looking for the "I".

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Re: Well, then. Shall we?

Postby susanlee » Sat Jun 30, 2012 11:59 pm

I am surprised by your response that I blasted through. I am not sure what I blasted through and my initial response is yes there are questions and confusion because I still don't know the what or where about anything. I sat for a long time this morning feeling on the verge of being beyond thoughts, beliefs and memories and couldn't quite cross the line; just stuck on the edge of it.

Interestingly, my 27 yr old daughter called right then and we were on a Skype for over 4 hours having a sweet intimate conversation that I thought had only lasted about an hour, when I noticed the time. This is highly unusual for us, as our conversations are usually really brief. Also during the conversation she actually said she wished I was there. We are living about 1200 miles apart. I don't recall her ever saying that she actually wanted me to be there in person. She seemed to be mostly happy that she had her independence from me, which I completely understood, having been 27 myself years ago. In any case I find it interesting that the historic 4 hr call with my daughter happened today, just as I feel on the verge of some kind of breakthrough.

So, I guess my question is, if I blasted through and susan isn't anywhere outside memory, thought or belief, then what? that just leaves her permanently stuck as a thought, memory or belief. I guess I have the idea that to be awakened is to somehow cross that edge I felt this morning.....and go beyond, thought, memory and belief. ..actually, as I take a moment....i can dwell at that edge again right now......how to get past it? ....I guess.....maybe not. I don't know.

Can you help with this? love, susan

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Re: Well, then. Shall we?

Postby Delma » Sun Jul 01, 2012 12:19 am

Hi Susan,

What does this mean? "Outside thought, belief or memory - no susan, no place, no thing."

Is that what was seen?

If so, what I see happening are these things:

1. There is a resistance/fear coming up, and an attempt to fit Susan into a thing or entity which lives only in thought, memory, or belief. But there is no entity there at all. Does that bring a feeling of loss? Let's bring that feeling up close to see whether it has any bite.

2. There is still an expectation to transcend something. Susan cannot transcend as there is no one there to do so. She can't get past or beyond anything. She can't awaken. Awakening just happens.

Let's look at the resistance and fear. Can you show it to me?
There is no "I" doing this inquiry. There is no "I" looking for the "I".

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