Looking to End Seeking

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gwdean
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Looking to End Seeking

Postby gwdean » Thu Jun 14, 2012 1:48 am

Hello.

My name is Greg and I am interested in seeing through the pesky ego. For the past couple of years, I've done a lot of cognitive behavioral therapy and nonduality work (especially Advaita/Direct Path/Self-Enquiry) to deal with a major depressive episode. As a result of this work, I've gotten good at watching my thoughts, and a few months ago clearly saw that thoughts just emerge and there is really no way to predict what my next thought was going to be. Once that was established, the idea that there is a "doer" crumbled and that actions just sort of "happen" without anyone doing them.

Two weeks ago I had an interesting realization. I had been reading something on the computer and when I stood up, I felt somehow less "separate" than I had before. The world looked the same, but it was subtly different; there was a pleasant "uncanniness" lingering in the background. I went for a walk in the woods, and I felt more connected than I ever had before, and a lot of existential fear I had vanished. For the first time in years I felt a sense of gratitude to be alive. That feeling lasted a couple of days but now seems to have worn off a bit.

There is still a sense that there is no doer, but the feelings of anger, frustration, negative self-worth and loneliness present before the realization have returned, although not at the level they were before. I seem to be in the midst of two worlds right now-- almost that the ego has seen the writing on the wall, but is clinging for its life and reasserting itself when it can. I would love to work with someone who could help me figure out where I stand relative to the "Gateless Gate" and help me finally push through.

Thanks a lot, and I hope to connect with someone soon. I appreciate any and all help!!!

Greg

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Bill
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Re: Looking to End Seeking

Postby Bill » Thu Jun 14, 2012 3:47 am

Hello Greg,

My name is Bill and I'd be glad to point you in the right direction.
Sounds like you just need a good push or two to finish what you've already started.
I like what you've written.

Thanks for the introduction. It was complete.
I'm assuming you've looked around here and have seen how we do it.
I ask you questions.....you come back with the answers.
From your direct experience with 100% complete honesty.
If you have a true desire to SEE and the willingness to admit you might be wrong
that is all we can ask.
That's exactly what will get you there.
Leave all of the stuff you've learned in your spiritual quest on the back burner while you're here.
It'll all be there later....if you want it.
What time zone are you in? I am west coast US. GMT - 7:00

So if all that's OK and you're in....
First question..


What is your reaction when I say that the you that you think you are is not real?
That there is no I in real life, none, zero.
No entity.
It can't be found.

What comes up for you?
Feelings, thoughts, reactions, sensations....

Bill

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gwdean
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Re: Looking to End Seeking

Postby gwdean » Thu Jun 14, 2012 4:32 pm

Hi Bill.

Thanks for the quick and thorough reply. I appreciate it. I am located in the US Eastern Time Zone. I'm also 35 years old if that helps at all.
What is your reaction when I say that the you that you think you are is not real?
That there is no I in real life, none, zero.
No entity.
It can't be found.

What comes up for you?
Feelings, thoughts, reactions, sensations....
There are a lot of feelings that arise when you say that "the you that you think you are is not real".

First is a thought of agreement. Like I said, I've been able to observe the mind and I have come to
the same conclusion. I haven't been able to find an I, and I've seen that thoughts just arise as they
will, and things in the world just happen.

Second, there is a sense of frustration in that I cannot just drop the old habits (especially the feelings
of separation and inferiority) and live more in tune with how things are. It does seem obvious on a
conceptual and observational level that there is no "I", yet the felt sense of being separate
and inferior still lingers.

Third, there are feelings of hope and relief in finding someone who might help "me" stabilize in the
truth of who I really am. The ego has had a nice run, but I don't think it will be missed. I'm willing to
do what it takes to rid myself of delusion. I'm sick of it!!!

-Greg

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Bill
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Re: Looking to End Seeking

Postby Bill » Thu Jun 14, 2012 9:24 pm

Second, there is a sense of frustration in that I cannot just drop the old habits (especially the feelings
of separation and inferiority) and live more in tune with how things are. It does seem obvious on a
conceptual and observational level that there is no "I", yet the felt sense of being separate
and inferior still lingers.
Greg,
These things take time to let go of.
they are all just our conditioning.
They're not going to just go poof and be gone.
At this point, just accepting that they are there and not resisting things as they come
up can be a way to deal with things.
Just notice things. Nothing needs fixing.
Third, there are feelings of hope and relief in finding someone who might help "me" stabilize in the
truth of who I really am. The ego has had a nice run, but I don't think it will be missed. I'm willing to
do what it takes to rid myself of delusion. I'm sick of it!!!
A 'you' can't do this. Its the you that needs to let go.

Let's look and see if we can find an entity running the show.
As you go about your next many hours, observe closely and see
if you can find an entity, a separate manager so to speak running the show.
Is there something in control? Or is life just happening?

As you go through your day and move around, see if you can find that there is a self moving things around.
Look for this I. As you talk, walk, drive, eat, type, check it out. Is there a self living your life?
Or are all the thoughts about all of these things, including the I apparently living your life?
Just look at whats true for you. In life, in all your actions, keep returning to this focus on the thoughts as you move around. Simply keep checking if there is something real, besides a thought, that owns and directs the body.
Write it down. Try a stream of consciousness on a couple of things, like walking or driving or typing for example.

One more thing, other than the relief of the seeking, what else are you looking to get out of being here on this site?
What do you expect or want to happen?

Bill

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Re: Looking to End Seeking

Postby gwdean » Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:07 pm

Hi Bill,

I've been doing what you said for the last month or so on my own (looking for a "separate manager", etc) and I can see that there is no one there that is doing anything. When this body walks out of the room, walking is just happening. It has been seen. I also had a severe anxiety attack last night and this morning. (I'm not sure it has anything to do with what I've been doing here, because it seemed to be triggered by something else that I've struggled with for a while.) Anyway, I used that event to also observe the racing thoughts in my head, and I could clearly see various thoughts about the "me" habitually running through the mind, projecting into the past and future. At times I was able to pull back and observe the thoughts without being caught up in them. It is an aggravating state to be in, and believe me, if I could choose to get out of it, I would. It is also clear in that state that the suffering is associated with a heavy sense of ego that somehow latches on to my consciousness and won't let go.
One more thing, other than the relief of the seeking, what else are you looking to get out of being here on this site?
What do you expect or want to happen?
My ultimate goal is to reach a state in which the world is no longer filled with so much regret, anger, shame and fear, all of which are projections from my mind. I'm not looking for any magical experiences or temporary states of bliss, but to establish a rock-solid realization in which I am not so attached to the outcomes of events, whether they be good or bad, and live in relative harmony with life as it flows by.

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Bill
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Re: Looking to End Seeking

Postby Bill » Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:16 pm

My ultimate goal is to reach a state in which the world is no longer filled with so much regret, anger, shame and fear, all of which are projections from my mind. I'm not looking for any magical experiences or temporary states of bliss, but to establish a rock-solid realization in which I am not so attached to the outcomes of events, whether they be good or bad, and live in relative harmony with life as it flows by.
Greg, Is there such a place or state as this?
Or is it maybe we can see these things but they don't grab and control us?
As far as all I know on here.... all still get angry once in awhile, feel shame, and fear
It's just maybe its not quite as sticky as before.
And sometimes it can be even more intense.
All the feelings and emotions are still there.
We're talking normal, everyday life. Really normal. What we've overlooked.


So what is getting in your way of letting this last bit go?
What would it take for you to do this?
Is there some fear? What about this anxiety attack?
What's going on there?


Greg, I do notice you're getting caught up in your story and did not even do the exercise I recommended.
We all have stories.
Let's deal with right here and right now.
And please do the stream of consciousness reporting on a normal activity.

Please realize that if you had already finished all this and found no entity in the past....
you more than likely wouldn't be on here now.
So let's look at it fresh.

Namaste,
Bill

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gwdean
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Re: Looking to End Seeking

Postby gwdean » Sat Jun 16, 2012 12:15 am

Thanks Bill for the reply.

The anxiety attack has lessened this afternoon, and I have spent most of the afternoon in a better state, observing my actions and thoughts as you suggested. The anxiety is triggered by a personal situation that I am in, which I am trying to get out of, stemming from a severe bout of depression that I've been recently coming out of. I did the stream of consciousness on a normal activity, namely writing at the restaurant where I am sitting right now. Here's a transcript of what I was writing:

---begin transcript---
Looking at a blank page. No longer blank. Where are these ideas coming from?
Not sure. They are just coming out. My fingers are moving along the keyboard
and I type even though I probably couldn't tell you where the letters are, even
though I can type without looking at the keyboard.

Take a breath.

A person across from me looks into their cup and lowers it. A child stands on
the seat and says something. How is attention caught? Do I control it, or is
it grabbed by the...before I finish the sentence my left arm grabs the drink.
I drink a lot of diet coke, and I barely can control it. Something about the
free refills. Another sip. For some reason I brush my hands against my thighs.
Maybe to get rid of excess energy? Or maybe not? I look around. For the first
time I see my reflection in the screen. Somehow it had already been there, but
only now have I become aware of it.

And who is this I anyway?

My story comes up. I am unemployed and I am living at home with my parents. I
also do not have any real ambitions right now. It seems that the game is over.
I do not have any real hobbies other than thinking (which I see has caused a
lot of damage to this person) and reading. Everything basically seems frivolous.
The feeling of being trapped and inferior arise. The outer aspects of my life
are a disaster and I am trying to figure out a way to live so that I can find
happiness no matter what the outer appearance. Hence the spiritual search.

Enormous number of (self)-judgments. Desire to see things clear. Desire to
connect with another human being. Feeling of being trapped. The word "anger"
arises. Noticing that it is a beautiful day outside. "Ring my bell" playing
in the background. Take another sip of diet coke. Cars are going by out the
window. My eyes temporarily leave the page and I look over to the right.

Why the anxiety attack...fear of being lonely for the rest of my life. I
want to do something with people, but I feel inferior and alone while I
am with them. It is a self-defeating cycle and I remain wrapped up my thoughts.
I see that it is all unfolding, but it seems that this body-mind gotten dealt
the lonely hand. Anger and regrets about my introverted behavior and attachment
to ideas. That's what the mind is saying anyway. Hopefully this is a residue from
the depression that I am trying to get over.
---end transcript---
Please realize that if you had already finished all this and found no entity in the past....
you more than likely wouldn't be on here now.

I think the main reason I am here is for validation of what I have seen. I wanted to
know if there is anything more to liberation than seeing that there is no "I". I've been doing this
search by myself, and I wanted to see if my experiences meshed with what others
have experienced. It seems that I am on the right track, but there is still a heaviness. For instance,
the anger I speak of is a constant, underlying anger at myself, rather than getting angry at someone
else or at a particular event. For some reason, I cannot forgive myself for being so aloof and
introverted, even if I realize that at some level, I really didn't have a choice in the matter. I do
think a lot of this is habitual, and perhaps will go away as my understanding that there is no
"I" deepens. Thanks.

-Greg

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Re: Looking to End Seeking

Postby Bill » Sat Jun 16, 2012 7:58 am

I think the main reason I am here is for validation of what I have seen. I wanted to
know if there is anything more to liberation than seeing that there is no "I". I've been doing this
search by myself, and I wanted to see if my experiences meshed with what others
have experienced. It seems that I am on the right track, but there is still a heaviness. For instance,
the anger I speak of is a constant, underlying anger at myself, rather than getting angry at someone
else or at a particular event. For some reason, I cannot forgive myself for being so aloof and
introverted, even if I realize that at some level, I really didn't have a choice in the matter. I do
think a lot of this is habitual, and perhaps will go away as my understanding that there is no
"I" deepens. Thanks.
Greg - I feel for you that you are going through this depression.
Not having depression myself other than the normal situational depression, I can only guess at how you're feeling.
From what I hear from friends, it can be very tough and difficult to get out of.
And can last for a long time also.

One thing we do know is to not avert, resist or try to replace the feeling as its going on.
I know that's easy to say from this point of view.
It will only persist and last longer than if you just let the feelings come, feel them and then
let them naturally release. As they all do eventually.
Another thing I've been trying to look at recently is when feelings I might label as bad or unwanted comes up,
is to not only feel it fully, but also to look at the true origin of that feeling. If I can truly look, right in the midst
of it, it really has its origin in the same shining Life as all other phenomena have and is not a separate
thing in and of itself. In other words, its not real in that it has a life of its own or is a separate entity.
You might say for example that being angry, and not being angry are not dualistic but are one.
Seeing this, can bring a different perspective on these feelings.

One thing we say here is that liberation is not necessarily a life improvement program.
In other words, your life may or may not improve from seeing there is no I.
Yes, it does seem there is a natural tendency to want to reach out and be of benefit
to not only yourself and the world too, and being an introvert is a hurdle you may have to jump to get there.

Staying all wrapped up in thinking is not a real healthy place to be and I can give you some ideas
as we go along that you might try to do something else.

One thing we do have here is a community on Facebook for aftercare and also several different groups for
discussion that may help you get a bit out of yourself and mix up with others. Once we're through here, I
will give you all that info if you want to participate. I do believe it would be helpful to you.

You know that you don't have to keep beating yourself up. I'll tell you that also so you have at least one
other person telling you that. Life unfolds as it does and the more we can go with that flow, the easier and
more harmonious we feel.
This aloofness you feel.... you don't really think you're special or different than anyone else.... do you?
Or is this just an attitudinal posture you've taken on to withdraw further from involvement with the world?

Greg - let's change the mood a bit here....
Tell me what this means/does for you:

Well its a very simple thing that needs to be resolved...
There is this thought, I,... and once you see that I is just a thought
And you see that thought itself does not think
It clicks!
Its very very simple.



You do know the forum is going to be down for a week starting on the 18th of June.
If we are still going, we can continue this by email.

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Re: Looking to End Seeking

Postby Bill » Sat Jun 16, 2012 5:45 pm

Greg - in looking through your posts again....and in getting some feedback from an expert in depression,
there seems to be a theme running very heavy in everything you've written..
That there is a 'you' that is in total belief of all these 'inferior' thoughts running through your head.
It sounds to me that you have a very good intellectual understanding of this no self.
We are talking about SEEING here.
SEEING is not understanding in the head.

Are you your thoughts?
Is there a self to feel inferior?
Is there?
There is no inferior self.... there's no self at all.

LOOK for this I right now Greg. See where it is.
Its only a thought. It's not real in any sense. It cannot be found.
Only in stories and you have a lot of them.
You've believed them to the point of having anxiety attacks.
LOOK.
You don't have to believe this any more.
It's done a number on you for a long time.

What's here is life. Life lifeing. Its what looking.
All things, including you are fine. All things are neutral.
No good person, bad person, inferior person, aloof person.
No you to get 'better' or improve.
This is all just thoughts and ultimately just your imagination.
Life is always just fine as it is.
Take a real LOOK.
SEE THIS!

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Re: Looking to End Seeking

Postby gwdean » Sat Jun 16, 2012 8:32 pm

Bill,

Thanks a lot for the thorough replies. They mean a lot to me. Your assessment I feel is pretty spot on. I do have a good conceptual sense that there is no I, but the visceral, felt realization is not there yet. I'm out of the worst part of the depression right now, and I actually feel good on the whole, just some residual emotions emerge from time to time :) I really appreciate you taking the extra effort in talking to someone about depression and understanding. Depression really is a beast, and is really hard to describe to someone who has never experienced it.
Well its a very simple thing that needs to be resolved...
There is this thought, I,... and once you see that I is just a thought
And you see that thought itself does not think
It clicks!
Its very very simple.
This quote made me feel good, because that was my intuition, once that "I" crumbles the self-defeating, self-limiting thoughts will largely cease. I'm feeling much better today, and I've been looking for that non-existent I. I've been noticing a few more things. For instance, I was walking around thinking about how to reply to your response, and I found myself constructing a story in my head, using language such as "I am this type of person", and "I am not this type of person". Now upon identifying those thoughts, I realized that a lot of the mental chatter in my head throughout my life has involved categorizing myself (and others) like this. By thinking like this, I tend to disqualify myself from situations and avoid others on the "advice" of a non-existent self!!!

I'm also taking your LOOK advice to heart. It seems to be a running theme on some of the other boards as well. Here's my email if you need to connect while the board is down: gwdean2@gmail.com

-Greg

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Re: Looking to End Seeking

Postby Bill » Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:04 am

This is the email exchange between Greg and Bill while the forum was down.

Greg said
Thanks a lot for the thorough replies. They mean a lot to me. Your assessment I feel is pretty spot on. I do have a good conceptual sense that there is no I, but the visceral, felt realization is not there yet. I'm out of the worst part of the depression right now, and I actually feel good on the whole, just some residual emotions emerge from time
to time :) I really appreciate you taking the extra effort in talking to someone about depression and understanding. Depression really is a beast, and is really hard to describe to someone who has never experienced it.

Well its a very simple thing that needs to be resolved...
There is this thought, I,... and once you see that I is just a thought
And you see that thought itself does not think
It clicks!
Its very very simple.


This quote made me feel good, because that was my intuition, once that "I" crumbles the self-defeating, self-limiting thoughts will largely cease. I'm feeling much better today, and I've been looking for that non-existent I. I've been noticing a few more things. For instance, I was walking around thinking about how to reply to your response, and I found myself constructing a story in my head, using language such as "I am this type of person", and "I am not this type of person". Now upon identifying those thoughts, I realized that a lot of the mental chatter in my head throughout my life has involved categorizing myself (and others) like this. By thinking like this, I tend to disqualify myself from situations and avoid others on the "advice" of a non-existent self!!!

I'm also taking your LOOK advice to heart. It seems to be a running theme on some of the other boards as well.

----------------------------------------

Bill said
Yes. the noticing is where its at...
There's two choices really... we can stay lost in thought
or notice what's going on. Everything.
The noticing or we would also call LOOKING is where we can see the I is an illusion.
We use all of our senses in doing this.. Eyes, ears, feelings, perceptions, smell... etc
When we SEE something this way, we've seen it.
And not just thinking about it... or thought about seeing it...
We get lost in the stories.... we think they are real.
They seem so damn real.
There is no I, just what's going on right now.. That's what's real.
We can SEE this. An 'I', we can't really see.
So we wnat to move from the conceptual to the experiental.
Please don't worry about whatever time this takes or that there is some hurry to finish this.
There is not.
All is already perfect as it is.
Just stop. and LOOK. with all your senses.
This, right here, is it. This simple everyday reality that we
have overlooked.
There is no I, just what is going on, right here and now. Simply.
Let me know what's going on for you..
We can then move on.

--------------------------------------------------------

Greg said
We can use this email. I'm feeling much better the last few days, and the anxiety
has gone away. I think I was putting a lot pressure on myself to figure this out.
I'm more relaxed this week for some reason, and I am being more patient with
myself. I've been looking and doing some more of the stream of consciousness
writing.

Some aspect of my perception has, but it is difficult to express exactly in words, so bear with
me. The world seems in some sense more "slippery" or more fleeting than it was
before. In some sense less "real". Even "impossible" at times. (Excuse the quotes,
these are just approximations.) What's happening is that I notice that by the time
some arising occurs, it is gone. This is not a bad thing, it actually makes the
world seem more interesting. Uncanniness is a word that comes up a lot. Like
something is slightly different, but not different at the same time.

For instance, I'll be driving, and I'll look at the trees passing by me. I notice it
and just look and take it in. I'll be able to focus without thought for about 10-15 seconds
and then my mind will get distracted and then maybe five minutes later I'll focus
again without thought for 10-15 seconds or so and I'll be somewhere else, and
so on. It almost feels like I'm warping around to these islands of concentration.

Anyway, I don't want to go into too much detail, because the more I write, the
more it seems that I am distorting how I am experiencing things. So you can
take this description with a grain of salt, but just know that I am doing well,
and I continue to look.

--------------------------------------

Bill said
Greg Take a look at these two books.
One is from our website.... Gateless Gatecrashers. by Ilona an Elena of 21 conversations... very good the other is called Brutal Beginnings from the old Ruthless Truth people,,, the originators of this method It's harsh but very good.
People have actually woken up from reading both of these. I would recommend you read them if you have the time. Let me know how things are going..

--------------------------------------------------------------

Greg said
Thanks for the pdfs. I read through Brutal Beginnings this afternoon. Couldn't put it down. I found it very interesting how the language of people shifts from being vague, airy and full of acquired conceptual baggage to more direct as the understanding occurs. Very fascinating. The discussions gave me a lot of context that I didn't have before. I'll keep you posted. -Greg
PS Also a fan of Bill Hicks, so that was a nice bonus!!

Greg said
- What is the unique perspective that seems to be myself?
There are two parts that comprise this:
1- It is the collection of memories and experiences that have shaped the way
I look at the world. A personal/historical lens through which the world is perceived.
2- The "stream of consciousness" appearing to me that does not appear to
you or anyone else. For instance, the visual images of the computer in front of me
register in my perspective cannot be seen within your perspective.
The feelings of ownership, being personal, and being attached to a body seem
to arise within this perspective. Physical pain seems especially personal.

--------------------------------------------------------------

Bill said
Good observations
Its tempting all these questions.. but
Don't get too hung up on all these things that really have no answer.
Knowledge of that is not what we're looking for.
What's important, and what we are looking to see is the non existence of a 'self'.
It's just a thought.
It came to me walking my dog...started to say "I..... and bamm... it hit me. It's just a thought
nothing real. Where is it? Can I find it?
There's no I. There is just what is going on...
It's very simple.
Greg - does a 'you' exist?

------------------------------------------------

Greg said

Been looking basically all day. I notice that when the question "does a you exist?" is asked, it triggers a response in my mind, "How can I not exist?". And then the brain sort of stops. I ask again, and I get the same response. I notice that when I try to focus on where the question and answers come from, I notice they just sort of arise from nowhereand then go back. Like a cycle in which each triggers the other in a continual loop. Not sure what's going on. Any insights?

-----------------------

Bill Said - It looks like this is just an automatic response on your part. If someone asks you that question the first thing to come out would be "how can I not exist". About the loop, I don't know... maybe the question is just stumping the brain.

--------------------------------------------

Greg said
One more thing. Even though I don't feel there that I am in control of my thoughts and actions, there is still a sense of ownership of thoughts, things etc. The strongest feeling is when I think of the debt that I have. The fact that I have a socially recognized identity is still tripping me up and provides a justification in my brain for having an I. Perhaps I'm looking at the wrong angle...

------------------

Bill said
Sure we feel this ownership, but when we actually look for the I, is it there?
That's the question we keep coming back to.
Can I find an 'I' here?
Where is it?
Is there an entity?
An I?
LOOK!

-------------------------------------------

Greg said
Something just hit me like a ton of bricks, and I can't entirely believe it. I've been reading the discussion you had with Sombrero, with an assist from Ingen.
This part really hit me hard:
http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... =30#p12324
Ingen said - It is an interesting point of view. It is the only point of view. All other points of view are fiction. (Read this again.)
1. The fact that I am not in my direct experience is normal in this case. It is completely, utterly normal and the most ordinary thing in the world. Anyway it is usually ignored, and dismissed. While it is the only perspective where life is happening. This is what you are looking for. It is not about reaching a state of oneness or unity! Oneness is here already.
Smell a rose, or anything. Is there a perceiver in your direct experience? Are you "doing" smelling?
If my point of view exists then it means I exist. Because only your point of view exist, you can just as well delete the "my".
-

Greg said - Now when I originally read this, my immediate reaction is that is solipsism, and I was dismissive. However, going by only DIRECT experience without any assumptions, it is true. No one else has a point of view. This seems to support the above also:
Ingen: This here is not something you can "accept". You are conditioned to believe the story of an objective world as the only possible view, while in reality objectivity is a story. Had you been born in a different culture, you'd see it differently.
And I'm not asking you to discard the objective view of the world. It is useful, just as pronouns are useful for communication. I am asking you to see the difference between experience and story.
And more simply:

from the link: Bill said - Catalin - let go of this being very very complicated.
its so simple we miss it.
Its right here in front of you.
Just Look.

Ingen - About the subjective/objective: The only thing you have to know is that direct experience is the only experience there is. Everything else is thoughts/memories/second hand knowledge. Stories.
Greg - I am in a crowded restaurant right now. Going by direct visual experience (we'll bracket the other senses for simplicity) I don't see people. I see shapes and colors moving.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Bill said - Excellent Greg!
Direct experience is where its at.
Caution: although we come to an understanding of this surely with our heads, we want to
experience it fully with our bodies. That would be the LOOKING. Cerebral types, which I'm
counting you as one, can get hung up on all the points of view so to speak. This is very simple
when it comes right down to it.
No special 'state'.
Everyday reality.
What's in front of our nose at every minute.
Doesn't have to be thought about.
What is here, now.
THIS!

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Greg said
One more. I've been working through this for a while. I am going to write it out in the most clear way that I can. In direct experience, there are no other perspectives. A body (including my own) is just another form (i.e. colors and shapes). There is no "thought bubble" or anything else attached that can be confirmed in direct experience. So assuming that other supposed people in my line of sight have perspectives is merely an inference made in thought that cannot be confirmed in direct experience.
In pure seeing, all I find are colors, shapes and movements. No doers are observed, just arisings. Attention is attracted from environmental cues and habitual patterns of thought, neither of which "I" have any control over. Any labels or names of things are superimpositions made by thought over sensory perceptions, but do not exist in and of themselves.
That's what happens when I look.

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Bill said - Excellent work Greg!

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

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Greg said - To answer your question. No there is never a me found in direct experience. "Me" is a thought-based creation. There never was a me, because nothing really changed, only my interpretation of what is seen. Thanks for helping me out. Yesterday was pretty intense. I feel relaxed today and am casually testing what was discovered yesterday. A little tired from all that looking, I'm going to take a break from intense looking this weekend. If something comes up, I'll let you know. Thanks for all your time and patience.

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Bill said
Good job Greg.
It looks to me like you're SEEING. I want to ask you the rest of the standard questions we ask for confirmation.If for some reason you don't think you're there yet....let me know.
From your last few days of what you said, it looks like it to me...
Take your time on these..
no rush..
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.
3) How does it feel to see this?
4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.
5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

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Greg said:
Hi Bill,
Here are my answers. (It could probably be written without using "I" or "me" or whatever, but I think it is clear enough as it is!!!)

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

The "separate self" is a thought that arises through conditioning. The mind labels things in the environment, one of which is a particular human being. The idea of a separate self arises when the human body develops a certain mental threshold whereby it can reflect upon its mental processes (seems to be somewhere around 3 years old). As the human ages he/she collects a large number of ideas and stories about how the world works in order to survive. The idea there is a separate I that controls action is one of these stories.Just about everyone adopts this view, and our social environment reinforces this belief in innumerable ways. When thoughts are observed, it can be seen that they just arise due to cues from the environment and past conditioning, and later and I claims doership. Since the I itself is only a thought, it cannot actually do anything, but we have been habituated to think that it does. Since that the "I" does not exist anywhere outside of thought, it cannot be found anywhere in direct experience, and once this is truly grasped, it loses its power.

3) How does it feel to see this?

I feel much lighter, as if a weight has been lifted from my mind. Anxiety is gone -- I understand much more clearly the saying "There is nothing to do." A lot of what I have believed conceptually (i.e. there is no self, there is no controller/doer) is now understood in a felt sense. People (including myself) seem to be largely constructions of the mind, and any reality they have is dramatically different than what is conceived from what I'll call the "objective" perspective. Paradoxically, the "objective perspective" does not vanish, but no longer seems like the default way the world is in itself.

4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.

It feels like I have woken up within a dream. I haven't left the dream, and nothing looks any different, but there a strong feeling that whatever it is that whatever I am is vastly different than what I have previously taken myself to be. This realization creates a feeling of wonder, because I grasp at a deeper level how powerful the illusion created by the mind is. (For fans of the Matrix, it sort of feels like I've woken up within the Matrix but I don't have any control over the contents within. Unlike the Matrix, there is no sense that there is a body elsewhere outside the Matrix. This is an approximation of course.)

5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

The most difficult part for me to let go of was understanding how "I" didn't own "my" perspective. I knew that there was no free will and the body was an illusion, but it seemed that there was a solid body that contained a specific point of view, and that all these other bodies had closed off points of viewed contained within them. This made it feel that I owned my experiences and was disconnected from the world, even if I didn't have control over it. Things shifted while reading the discussion between you, Ingen and Sombrero. Sombrero was asking all sorts of questions, really working hard, and I could see so many assumptions that he had that I was seeing right through. Reading Sombrero's pained attempts to hold on to his assumptions made me wonder what mine were. This pointer from Ingen really hit me hard:
---(quote)
http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... =30#p12324
It is an interesting point of view. It is the only point of view. All other points of view are fiction. (Read this again.)---(quote)---
As soon as I read that, my mind immediately objected "Solipsism!!!" Then, I caught myself..."solipsism" is a concept...it is a thought...it is a word...it does not exist in direct experience. So I stopped and really looked at what I saw in direct experience. Lo and behold...there was only one perspective. I was projecting invisible "thought bubbles" onto everyone in sight, when nothing like that was present at all.
I sat it shock a bit for a minute or so ... thinking things like 'it can't be...'. Really uncanny. I spent the next few hours letting it sink in and testing it in various ways. The "I" is seen to be redundant, and is seen as a residue of prior conditioning.
Thanks Bill, and let me know if anything needs clarification.

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Bill
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Re: Looking to End Seeking

Postby Bill » Mon Jun 25, 2012 2:39 pm

Hello Greg

You are all confirmed by the fellow guides.
Great work here on the forum - you did most all of it on your own, which is
how it is supposed to be. We only point.
Thanks for your willingness to dig in and do whatever it took.
So many times its another reading, book, thread or something
that just resonates completely. You found a few of them
It was a pleasure to work with you.

So now you will notice you are blue in color.
There are a few extra places on the website that are opened up to you.
I have sent you an email with some other info.


Take care and we will see you in the Unleashed FB group and
the Unleashed section of this website.
There are a few other groups too, once you get there I'd be happy to point
them out.
And if you are interested in guiding at some point in the future, just let
us know.
Very nice to work with you and I'm very happy for you. Glad it all worked.
If there's any questions, get a hold of me, or post back here.

Namaste,
Bill


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