If you're new, you can start here....

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Bill
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If you're new, you can start here....

Postby Bill » Thu May 31, 2012 2:59 pm

Hi.
My name is Bill.
I'd be happy to work with you.
Please share a little about yourself and what you expect from being here.

Namaste
Bill

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Cailin Callahan
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Re: If you're new, you can start here....

Postby Cailin Callahan » Thu May 31, 2012 9:35 pm

Hello, Bill and All,

Thank you for doing all the great work you are doing. You are a blessing to the world. I wish I could be as helpful as yourselves are. It would be something worthwhile.

A little about my (nonexistant) self. I am 53. I grew up in a very abusive environment. I started having out of body episodes and ecstacies quite young. First I can remember I was 5. I began lucid dreaming at the age of 8 with the help and directions of an inner guide I first became aware of when I was 5. He was helping me escape a pedophile that was hiding in our family and told me where to hide. After this, he was nearly always noticably present.

At the age of 19 I was kicked in the head by a horse I was chasing and knocked from the back of another horse I was riding. I fell on my head and I had a near death experience. The same loving inner presence was there and "he" showed me that this world is a dream and that it is by judging things that come to us as "good or bad" we stay absorbed in and identified with the dream and, thereby, we suffer. He showed me that this world is the dream of the Son of God imprisoned and crucified by the world He made -- as a toy -- and that all things come to us as didactic experiences and that, by judging them and reisting them, we cause all the suffering that happens in the world. This was a jest that was at once hysterical and tragic. I came back willing intentionally to be here to share that perspective only to find that people regarded me as a loony when I tried.

Later, on Oct 31, 2007 he showed me the cross as a symbol in a way I had never experienced it before. He said it was "his" symbol because it represents the scales of balance and judgment. He explained (by way of dropping this concept into my mind fully formed, where it unfolded like a flower) that the horizontal beam represents duality and the linear experince of time: If we go out on a limb in judgment, we suffer. If we stay at the center, where horizontal (dream/earth plane) intersects the vertical path to ascention, we stay in nonjudgment and we are not identified with the dream any more: we are lucid. As a child, he had taught me to become lucid in my nightmares by using the rush of adrenaline thru my body as a signal that I was identified with the dream. During this most recent revelation, he reminded me of this teaching and indicated that he was now showing me that, any time I am in any pain at all, I have identified with the dream and I need to awaken, that is, stop resisting, go into nonjudgment and be present as the witness.

Now, I understand this "me" I think of as "me" with "my story" is not real because when I was dead I realized it was going to be hard to get back into a body which was but a dream and did not exist. Nevertheless, my will to return and join the many of you who have come here at this time of transition was strong enough that it carried me, like a great, gusting wind, back into the form with which I had identified. Still, while I was "dead", I was perfect. In fact, that was my first experience and I thought to myself "Perfect, I am perfect. Nothing can ever hurt me again." And then he was there saying "Nothing could have ever hurt you to begin with. You are an eternal being." So, while I recognize I am not the me I tend to think of identified with my "story" I know that "I" am the blessed turn of events that is the entire purpose of this existance. (Meeting that eternal Self is the point of each of our "stories".) I do not notice Me, the Being, often. Mostly, when a Turkey floggs my body and I have to stop my body/self (the meat suit) from reflexively killing it, I notice Me, the Being which does not mind being flogged and knows it cannot be hurt. So now I often use pain to escape from identification with the dream, but I am weary and have come to the place that I know none of these roads lead anywhere and I want the suffering cease permamnently. You see, almost all the people in my family for whom I came back have died (and in just a few years) and I know what even the darkness of the vast nothing felt like and I was perfect there and there was nothing to worry about. If I cannot bring that feeling back, I would just as soon move on. If I can bring the blessed perspective back and stay there, then I could be of some use that would justify (and render harmlessly disidentified with) the remainder of my time at this post.

Any help you can offer, will be embraced lovingly. I can find me, when I meditate, every night, but I cannot find where I end and anything else begins. I think I may be stuck in massive compassion that causes me to identify it all as my self.

Loving regards,

Cailin (Pronounced "cuh-LEEN". It's gaelic and means "Little girl".)

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Bill
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Re: If you're new, you can start here....

Postby Bill » Fri Jun 01, 2012 4:30 am

Hello Cailin,

Welcome. Wow! That is quite a story you have. I can see you've had some very different experiences than I have
and dare I say most people have had. Thank you for all the details you provided. These near death experiences can be very powerful and it looks like that is certainly the case for you. We might come back to some
of it in while you're here. I'm going to ask you to put all of this aside while you are here.
I know this is big for you. It will be there for you when you finish.
Is this something you can do?

We are just going to be dealing with the reality we can see, hear, feel and touch
while you are here. Direct experience is what we'll be looking at.
And it's you who's going to be doing this.. I'm only going to be asking questions of you
You will be doing all the work.
We can't rely on anything that we think we already know when we do this.
We want you to take a clean, fresh look.
Liberation is not a thought, a feeling or a state. Its really so ordinary that we have almost totally missed it. I can't convince you of it, in fact the only way I can help is to point you in the right direction to look so you can see it for yourself. You have to do the seeing. We are just going to be dealing with the common, everyday reality we can see, hear, feel and touch while you are here. Direct experience is what we'll be looking at.
Its not hidden. Its just a shift in perspective.
Do not expect big fireworks. They may or may not happen. Each person is totally different. All of the emotions we have had in the past are still here.. it just seems there is much less stickiness to them.

You do understand that what we are doing is going to be looking through the illusion of the I.
That's all. It's a start on the path.
You will still have suffering in your life. It will not end.
Whatever negative stuff you had before will probably not go away. It might be easier to deal with.. it might not be too.
But for sure, this is not a life improvement program.

I'm going to ask you when you respond to give me the honest answers from your own direct experience of this moment, not relying on any past experiences. And I ask that you commit to posting here at least once a day to keep the momentum going. If something should come up we can deal with it.

Cailin, you wrote quite a bit in your opening, especially in the last paragraph. I'd like to start you out by asking our question we ask of most everyone... and it is this:

What comes up for you, thoughts, feelings, emotions, when I tell you that there is no 'you' at all in reality. No you living your life. No you to get enlightened. There's just life, flowing. No you.
What's your reaction to this?
Tell all that comes up for you.

Namaste,
Bill

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Cailin Callahan
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Re: If you're new, you can start here....

Postby Cailin Callahan » Fri Jun 01, 2012 4:43 am

Yes I can set that all aside. Thank you for your kind help.

You asked: "What comes up for you, thoughts, feelings, emotions, when I tell you that there is no 'you' at all in reality. No you living your life. No you to get enlightened. There's just life, flowing. No you.
What's your reaction to this?
Tell all that comes up for you."

An experience I had diving on a reef wherein the reef showed itself to me as one organism, made up of millions of organisms that all thought they were separate. I saw fish eating other fish and it was life appearing to withdraw and then life appearing to reemerge elsewhere. There was no death, only life, dancing and playing a game with itself. But I also got the distinct impression life wanted to be aware of itself and so it was watching itself thru my eyes.

Is that the sort of information you wanted. It was the first that came to mind.

Namaste, with much appreciation,

Cailin

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Bill
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Re: If you're new, you can start here....

Postby Bill » Fri Jun 01, 2012 4:57 am

Yes I can set that all aside. Thank you for your kind help.
very good. It might be hard, but it will only get in your way while you're here.
You asked: "What comes up for you, thoughts, feelings, emotions, when I tell you that there is no 'you' at all in reality. No you living your life. No you to get enlightened. There's just life, flowing. No you.
What's your reaction to this?
Tell all that comes up for you."

An experience I had diving on a reef wherein the reef showed itself to me as one organism, made up of millions of organisms that all thought they were separate. I saw fish eating other fish and it was life appearing to withdraw and then life appearing to reemerge elsewhere. There was no death, only life, dancing and playing a game with itself. But I also got the distinct impression life wanted to be aware of itself and so it was watching itself thru my eyes.

Is that the sort of information you wanted. It was the first that came to mind.
Not really. Do you see that what you said is what we call a 'story'?
Its a story because its something from thought and something from the past.
Please understand I'm not trying to be mean or critical.

We want to deal with whats coming up for you right here and now.
The past is gone..dead....just a thought.

What does the question bring up in you right here and now.
LOOK. The answer is there. It doesn't have to be fast or the
first thing in your mind. Just the best answer :)

Bill

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Cailin Callahan
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Re: If you're new, you can start here....

Postby Cailin Callahan » Fri Jun 01, 2012 5:06 am

Yes, I see it's a story. I am just a vessel thru which life may interact with this world. I don't mind that. I must confess it seems to be associtaed with some mild nausea... {:-) Perhaps the body needs food. Actually, I wouldn't mind not existing at all, but I don't think that's going to happen.

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Re: If you're new, you can start here....

Postby Bill » Fri Jun 01, 2012 5:55 am

Yes, I see it's a story. I am just a vessel thru which life may interact with this world. I don't mind that. I must confess it seems to be associtaed with some mild nausea... {:-) Perhaps the body needs food. Actually, I wouldn't mind not existing at all, but I don't think that's going to happen.
Cailin,

Great.. that's a much more real answer.
I think you'll have to keep a watch out for yourself for the stories..
if you know what I mean :)
This awakening stuff is all about the here and now.
Keep that in mind as we go along.

There's no I in reality. It can't be found. Only the thought or illusion of an I.
We're going to keep moving toward you SEEING that.
Everything will be with that goal in mind.
How we think and thoughts are huge in this process.
No matter what we do, we can't get away from thinking.

Since thoughts are so prevalent, lets look at them.
Can you look very carefully and tell me where thoughts arise, for you?
Can you see a point of origin, in reality?

Are your thoughts possessive? Is everything somehow related back to you?
Do they all start out with an I attached, or does the I attach to the thought somewhere?

Here is a small exercise. Look at the computer. Which is more true?

it is A computer?
or MY computer?

Can you attach a computer to an "I"?
If so, how is that done?

Cailin - look to your direct experience to answer these...

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Cailin Callahan
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Re: If you're new, you can start here....

Postby Cailin Callahan » Fri Jun 01, 2012 6:12 am

YOU: "Can you look very carefully and tell me where thoughts arise, for you?
Can you see a point of origin, in reality?"

No, I can't. They seem to arise and simply pass by, unless I am worried or afraid and then they keep repeating. I don't believe thoughts come from me. I think they occur TO me. They come and they go...

You asked: Are your thoughts possessive? Is everything somehow related back to you?
Do they all start out with an I attached, or does the I attach to the thought somewhere?

I think, the latter, thoughts occur and I pick out the ones that seem to refer or to be pertinent to me or my situation. The whole thing acts like a rorshach test. There's is this field of nondescript energy and my mind picks out patterns and call them objects, but the field is just a field and is impersonal. And that part I dislike. I judge it. I do not like an impersonal universe. (Just being entirely candid here.)

You ask: "it is A computer?
or MY computer?

Can you attach a computer to an "I"?
If so, how is that done?"

It's just a computer until someone else wants to look around in it. Then it has my private stuff in it that they might accidentally delete, work and such. So it's more the work I have stored in it that is "mine". If it's another geek I trust not to scew my files up, I don't mind. It's the work stored in it with which I identify and that identification makes it "mine".

Hope I am not driving you crazy... {:-) I need to rest. More tomorrow?

Loving regards,

*
C
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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Bill
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Re: If you're new, you can start here....

Postby Bill » Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:01 pm

Cailin - you're doing great!
YOU: "Can you look very carefully and tell me where thoughts arise, for you?
Can you see a point of origin, in reality?"

No, I can't. They seem to arise and simply pass by, unless I am worried or afraid and then they keep repeating. I don't believe thoughts come from me. I think they occur TO me. They come and they go...
Along this line.... Can you control your thoughts?
Do you know what your next thought will be?
You asked: Are your thoughts possessive? Is everything somehow related back to you?
Do they all start out with an I attached, or does the I attach to the thought somewhere?

I think, the latter, thoughts occur and I pick out the ones that seem to refer or to be pertinent to me or my situation. The whole thing acts like a rorshach test. There's is this field of nondescript energy and my mind picks out patterns and call them objects, but the field is just a field and is impersonal. And that part I dislike. I judge it. I do not like an impersonal universe. (Just being entirely candid here.)
Yes, we see when we really look that most all thoughts refer back to me.
we see things, they are labeled, and then as you say a judgement is made.
Good looking!

Yes all these thoughts 'seem' like there is a me who is in charge.
But if we look very closely, we cannot find this I, this me.
We perceive; labeling happens immediately, and then the stories start.
It feels like the I is the controller.
But is it really?
Or is the I just another story?
Another huge story that has never really been looked at.

You ask: "it is A computer?
or MY computer?

Can you attach a computer to an "I"?
If so, how is that done?"

It's just a computer until someone else wants to look around in it. Then it has my private stuff in it that they might accidentally delete, work and such. So it's more the work I have stored in it that is "mine". If it's another geek I trust not to scew my files up, I don't mind. It's the work stored in it with which I identify and that identification makes it "mine".
How does a computer, or a car, or a person get to be from just a computer.... to mine?
What process happens for this to be?
How does this 'ownership' take place?

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Cailin Callahan
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Re: If you're new, you can start here....

Postby Cailin Callahan » Fri Jun 01, 2012 5:21 pm

Good morning. {:-)

You ask: How does a computer, or a car, or a person get to be from just a computer.... to mine?
What process happens for this to be?
How does this 'ownership' take place?

I'd say: They seem to become part of the story. My old text books are supportive of my factuality = history. Hmmm... This reminds me of when I moved far away from my family, and I began to feel very uncomfortable: like a card board cut out = less "real", because no one knew me within the context of my past = my story/accomplishments. It seemed to me that it seemed to them that I was actually missing parts. I felt like they treated me like I was less real/legitimate because I had no parents or siblings to point to and say "mine". When my family all came up to visit me it gave me such a relief-filled feeling of dimensionality and deepening reality. They were like living props that witnessed to my reality.

All this considered, I'd say that we use objects, which aren't even real, as props that witness to our own reality: "I earned that when I worked that job all summer as a kid and saved up to buy it." = A demonstration that I am and am competent to "get" and have. So we equate having with being. Ie: "I inherted that from Daddy, who told me all my life it would be mine one day because I was 'his little girl, so much like him'." I looked like him and gave him verification of his own reality, extended somehow, thru time, by me. So possessions are all just props that help the illusion of "me" to feel more dimensional and real. We identify with anything that tends to strengthen our own theories and stories, by giving "proof" of a past and hope for a future. We distance our "selves" from what we think we don't want in our perimeter because it is ego dystonic = doesn't fit with the story we want to create, the story of "Me". When people say "It's really you" about the clothes they are wearing, it's because they are saying "It goes well with your story/image".

When I moved back to the south I gave away many of my things happily. It was a great unburdening and even that fit within my story. I had moved away to get away from my little sister (Cyndee) who was a crack head abusing my mother, and I took lots of possessions with me. I moved many times and those objects came to own me. I hated lugging them about but just couldn't let them go. Then the little sister died and I sat looking at this beautiful peice of property I had groomed and developed and had been so proud of, and I realized it had lost value because I had never gotten to share it with Cyndee (the little sister). There was no cross perspective verification of my time spent away because Cyndee had died having never shared it (the project that witnessed to my continued existance while we had been apart) with me. At the time, I took this to mean that nothing we own has any reality until it is shared out of love with someone you love = that sharing out of love makes things REAL = eternal. I thought it the only way objects can go with you when you die was if another mind (story) shared them with you when you were both "alive". So I went back to the house I was renting and started giving my things away because I wanted the friends I was about to leave behind (when I moved back to the south) to remember me. I was broadening my story/reality by scattering evidence that supported the factuality of my existence, like a graffiti artist tags things.

My ex husband is an engineer and used to point at buildings all over town for which he had done the engineering and he'd say "I built that and that and that"... They were all demonstrations of the expansive scope of his reality: momuments to his story/history.

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Re: If you're new, you can start here....

Postby Cailin Callahan » Fri Jun 01, 2012 6:47 pm

Cailin - you're doing great!

Thanks for the encouragement. I fear I tend to integrate everything I come to understand fresh in the _|NOW|_ with everything I THOUGHT I had understood in the past. Accordingly, I tend to look back at the story, but from a fresh perspective, and reinterpret the story from within the context of _|NOW|_. It's like my story is so big that I can't easily just step out of it from _|NOW|_ without reassimilating the past from within that current perspective, if that makes sense. Nontheless, I understand how sticky the story is, just from our brief interaction thus far it has become very evident, so I will try to stay out of past unless you tell me that my current REinterpretations of the past might be helpful to the process of escaping it completely. I think the last message I posted had some valuable insights that were fresh perspectives on the past cuased by the fresh clean looking in the _|NOW|_. If they were not helpful (distraction), please let me know and I'll try to stay more in the _|NOW|_. It's the nature of the way my mind has always worked: I reintegrate new concepts with every old things I thought I knew before, so it may be a difficult pattern to break since it's not volitional, just a domino effect backward thru time. Then again, it might lead to a lasting release from the entire story. It's like a booger I can't shake off my finger, you know? {:-)
YOU: "Can you look very carefully and tell me where thoughts arise, for you?
Can you see a point of origin, in reality?"

No, I can't. They seem to arise and simply pass by, unless I am worried or afraid and then they keep repeating. I don't believe thoughts come from me. I think they occur TO me. They come and they go...
Along this line.... Can you control your thoughts?
Do you know what your next thought will be?

Hmmm... I can intentionally perseverate and often do. I hammer thoughts when I want to materialize something into manifestation. Then there are times when I want thoughts to go away and they seem to have a will of their own and invade my mental space. This most often happens with songs or anxiety driven or grief driven thoughts. Mostly I try to be open and listen inwardly because the presence I have experienced as being with me all my life since I was 5 seems to remind me of things that need attending or to bring things that are happening in the environment to my attention because they are indications of something that impacts how I should proceed with my day. For instance, I am considering your question and my eyes are blindly looking at the turkey chicks in the back yard and then I get an inner prompting that says "Look. That behavior they are engaging in means they need water and/or food. You need to attend to that". That thought just occurred to me. It does not FEEL like it originated within the me that identifies with this story.

So while I can focus my thoughts very intensely and willfully, I do not try to know what the next thought will be. Instead, I listen inwardly and try to remain constantly cognizant of inner promptings. Writing and speaking mostly happen the same way: no intention EXCEPT to stop the meat suit from saying something that might hurt feelings or cause loss of rapport.


You asked: Are your thoughts possessive? Is everything somehow related back to you?
Do they all start out with an I attached, or does the I attach to the thought somewhere?

Reading this exchange after my first posting to you today makes me intensely aware that I am very attached to the earth and everything/everyone in it. I feel a deep sense of stewardship responsibility and I re-COGNIZE that I regard you all (it all) as mine and beloved -- as though the entire thing was my project and it's all an extension of my Self. So I see that, the earth itself, I feel a strong feeling of responsibility for. (I recognize that's irrational, BTW and I also see I have a deep sense of need to "save" all of us and have felt that way since I was 5.)

Yes, we see when we really look that most all thoughts refer back to me.
we see things, they are labeled, and then as you say a judgement is made.
Good looking!

Yes all these thoughts 'seem' like there is a me who is in charge.
But if we look very closely, we cannot find this I, this me.
We perceive; labeling happens immediately, and then the stories start.
It feels like the I is the controller.
But is it really?
Or is the I just another story?
Another huge story that has never really been looked at.

This induces a slight sense of angst and some willful bucking internally = resistance. I have no problem with the concept that I am not who I think I am (this story) but the concept that there is no "I am" at all, makes no sense. When I meditate I come to a place of clear light presence where there is just "I am" and peace, there is no story. It is much like the perfect state I felt when I was "dead". Is there a layer deeper?

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Re: If you're new, you can start here....

Postby Bill » Fri Jun 01, 2012 9:37 pm

Thanks for the encouragement. I fear I tend to integrate everything I come to understand fresh in the _|NOW|_ with everything I THOUGHT I had understood in the past. Accordingly, I tend to look back at the story, but from a fresh perspective, and reinterpret the story from within the context of _|NOW|_. It's like my story is so big that I can't easily just step out of it from _|NOW|_ without reassimilating the past from within that current perspective, if that makes sense. Nontheless, I understand how sticky the story is, just from our brief interaction thus far it has become very evident, so I will try to stay out of past unless you tell me that my current REinterpretations of the past might be helpful to the process of escaping it completely. I think the last message I posted had some valuable insights that were fresh perspectives on the past cuased by the fresh clean looking in the _|NOW|_. If they were not helpful (distraction), please let me know and I'll try to stay more in the _|NOW|_. It's the nature of the way my mind has always worked: I reintegrate new concepts with every old things I thought I knew before, so it may be a difficult pattern to break since it's not volitional, just a domino effect backward thru time. Then again, it might lead to a lasting release from the entire story. It's like a booger I can't shake off my finger, you know? {:-)
Hi Cailin,

That's good you looked at your first post and made a second. Yes I can see its going to be very much a
chore for you to stay out of the past and your story. Its so huge in your life - it has become you.
Tell me if I'm reading this wrong.... I don't think I am.
So what we do here is break thru all the stories. Or should I say, what YOU do here is break
thru all the stories. They will still be there when you're finished, if you want them.. You may
have a choice after this on whether you want them or not...
Just do the best you can to stay here with me. You've read enough and know enough
to know that life is right here, right now. That's the only place we can find it.
And the more you, Cailin, can stay right here, the better.
Reading this exchange after my first posting to you today makes me intensely aware that I am very attached to the earth and everything/everyone in it. I feel a deep sense of stewardship responsibility and I re-COGNIZE that I regard you all (it all) as mine and beloved -- as though the entire thing was my project and it's all an extension of my Self. So I see that, the earth itself, I feel a strong feeling of responsibility for. (I recognize that's irrational, BTW and I also see I have a deep sense of need to "save" all of us and have felt that way since I was 5.)
So we look at thoughts.
We find we really can't control our thoughts.
There is seeming control... but not really in any ultimate sense.
And we don't know really where they come from. They just happen.
Arise out of nowhere.
so called good thoughts, bad thoughts, and everything in between.
crazy thoughts sane thoughts wild thoughts violent thoughts peaceful and loving thoughts
All come. then go. Not really ours.
And we find that we possess things by thought and thought only.
A computer is just a computer... but by our story about the computer (I bought it, its mine, my stuff's on it)
we make it "ours". So we see this possession is only made in our thoughts.

I can tell that you could write 4 pages on each question! Lets' keep it simpler than that
Let's try and work with one concept, question, per post to keep the train of thought coherent.
This induces a slight sense of angst and some willful bucking internally = resistance. I have no problem with the concept that I am not who I think I am (this story) but the concept that there is no "I am" at all, makes no sense. When I meditate I come to a place of clear light presence where there is just "I am" and peace, there is no story. It is much like the perfect state I felt when I was "dead". Is there a layer deeper?
Sure you have resistance to this. Its only natural.
This I is who we thought we were for years and years.
We are not of the "I am" persuasion here. No self.
We like to say its Life lifeing. Or just Am.
We want to bring that state of no story from your meditation out into present everyday reality.
There is no I that can be found in the real objective world.

I have another thought for you to ponder.
I call it Ilona's Gem as it is a beautiful short summation of what this is all about:

Please tell me what this means to you.

Well its a very simple thing that needs to be resolved...
There is this thought, I,... and once you see that I is just a thought
And you see that thought itself does not think
It clicks!
Its very very simple.

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Re: If you're new, you can start here....

Postby Cailin Callahan » Fri Jun 01, 2012 10:32 pm

Hi Billy! Thanks for your patient help.

You said (Ilona said):
Well its a very simple thing that needs to be resolved...
There is this thought, I,... and once you see that I is just a thought
And you see that thought itself does not think
It clicks!
Its very very simple.

I read it again. It looks a little different. The "I" that I have supposed myself to be is an imposter, just a story and the "real" self is mind. When mind is empty and disidentified (claims no particular story) there is peace and "am-ness" and nothing more, but that's just because I know I can get back into the story if I want. If I thought the story were "gone" and unretrievable, I might feel a little panic. Moreover, from this vantage point, it feels like "I" might be able to assume any story I chose. Disorienting, that.

You say: We want to bring that state of no story from your meditation out into present everyday reality.
There is no I that can be found in the real objective world.

Hmmm... I agree but it's confusing, probably because there is nothing there for mind to get hold of. Could this shift occur and one not know it? Perhaps I am grieving for one more death than I had noticed. The response elicited is of myrth and grief combined: all that suffering that never happened at all. All the "loss" perceived -- of things/people that never existed at all. It's very funny and sad. ...After a little while there's a feeling of peace and stupor, perhaps mild shock.

I do not think my story has taken over. In fact, it has felt less and less real and more and more pointless for a long while now (a couple of years). As I said, none of these roads lead anywhere and everything turns to water, or dust, slipping thru my metaphorical fingers. What appears to be happening is that I am trying to make sense of it all in retrospect. Why would any mind undertake such a story, except to make it so distressing that said mind would awaken just to escape it? And what then? What's the point?

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Bill
Posts: 1353
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2012 5:08 am
Location: Pacific NW, USA

Re: If you're new, you can start here....

Postby Bill » Sat Jun 02, 2012 5:07 am

Hello Cailin!
Well its a very simple thing that needs to be resolved...
There is this thought, I,... and once you see that I is just a thought
And you see that thought itself does not think
It clicks!
Its very very simple.

I read it again. It looks a little different. The "I" that I have supposed myself to be is an imposter, just a story and the "real" self is mind. When mind is empty and disidentified (claims no particular story) there is peace and "am-ness" and nothing more, but that's just because I know I can get back into the story if I want. If I thought the story were "gone" and unretrievable, I might feel a little panic. Moreover, from this vantage point, it feels like "I" might be able to assume any story I chose. Disorienting, that.
Yes Cailin, the I is not only an imposter, its just another thought in the head, just like any other thought.
And thoughts themselves cannot think. Not sure about a 'real' self....sounds like another version of an I.
There's no I that can be found. not now. not yesterday. not tomorrow.
The reason? Its not really there!
Many have read that little koan of Ilona's and actually had a startling discovery.
You say: We want to bring that state of no story from your meditation out into present everyday reality.
There is no I that can be found in the real objective world.

Hmmm... I agree but it's confusing, probably because there is nothing there for mind to get hold of. Could this shift occur and one not know it? Perhaps I am grieving for one more death than I had noticed. The response elicited is of myrth and grief combined: all that suffering that never happened at all. All the "loss" perceived -- of things/people that never existed at all. It's very funny and sad. ...After a little while there's a feeling of peace and stupor, perhaps mild shock.
Yes the shift could occur slowly but most realize something is different.
There is a different perspective that is noticeable.
Much less stickiness to feelings and emotions. They come and go.
At least in my own case.
I do not think my story has taken over. In fact, it has felt less and less real and more and more pointless for a long while now (a couple of years). As I said, none of these roads lead anywhere and everything turns to water, or dust, slipping thru my metaphorical fingers. What appears to be happening is that I am trying to make sense of it all in retrospect. Why would any mind undertake such a story, except to make it so distressing that said mind would awaken just to escape it? And what then? What's the point?
Cailin, to me it appeared that way. You wrote quite a bit describing it all the first post.
It appeared dominant. I have been told by a very good source that people who have had NDE do get quite identified with it. Not having that in my own experience doesn't make me a good person to truly know. I can only guess by what I see.
It doesn't matter.
You're here and lets move forward (or maybe inward!)

So we've looked at thoughts.
you don't own them, they come and go, can't predict them.
We are not in control of them we could say.

Lets look at the body and see if there is an owner or entity controlling it.
Lift up one of your hands. either one.
Move it to the right. Now move it left. Look with your eyes what is happening.
Did a self move the hand?
Or did the hand just move?
Direct observation. Move it again. Check it.
Which is more true, the hand moved, or a self moved the hand?

Try looking at some very ordinary thing you do everyday....like typing.. like walking, driving..
Look at it while you are doing it. Can you find an entity directing things...
or is the movement just happening?

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Cailin Callahan
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Location: Jennings, Florida, USA

Re: If you're new, you can start here....

Postby Cailin Callahan » Sat Jun 02, 2012 5:03 pm

Good morning Billy, {:-)

You said: Yes Cailin, the I is not only an imposter, its just another thought in the head, just like any other thought.
And thoughts themselves cannot think.

I say: I agree and this begs the question, who DOES do the thinking? Not the usualy worried perseveration on issues that seem to need to be handled. Insights: In whose mind do they occur so that this figmentory me can then share them?

YOU say: Not sure about a 'real' self....sounds like another version of an I.
There's no I that can be found. not now. not yesterday. not tomorrow.
The reason? Its not really there!
Many have read that little koan of Ilona's and actually had a startling discovery.

I say: I agree, I can't find me either but neither can I find "nothing". When I meditate there is definitely still a witness to the nothing. So long as there is some manner of awareness, it's not "nothing". As for Ilona's gem, I can see why it works for many as it cut thru quite a bit of mind prattle for me as well. Today, I feel much less bothered about all the pointless suffering in life. The "loss" of characters I loved no longer worries/grieves me. "Loss" is no more real that the characters themselves were. Nothing real can be threatened. In fact I had quite the seizure of laughter mixed with crying in the shower last night after I read Ilona's gem. My sad story I was telling my self was ridiculous and I seemed to step out of it. But this happens to me all the time: I'm disidentified with this dream and at peace, and then I lose my wah and become emotionally attached. Then someone else dies. It's as if I am being enured to the visage so I will see thru it. I'm vascillating between perspectives and I am here having this exchange with your gracious presence because I want the frame of reference to stabilize. It's the back and forth that is uncomfortable now, not the dream.

Does this make sense? That NDE only made me much more certain this life is but a dream and that the character that appears as "me" is not real. To function here, I have had to make some weird adjustments that have left me in a borderland, shifting back and forth. Sometimes, things here are so beautiful and vivid, even "sacred". Other times they are all just verbal objects in mind space: props.


You said (regarding my nde): Cailin, to me it appeared that way. You wrote quite a bit describing it all the first post.
It appeared dominant. I have been told by a very good source that people who have had NDE do get quite identified with it.

I say: Here is my only issue: Body was dying. I was perfect and changed. I was disoriented and there was someone there to help orient me. I didn't tell you much about it as it contained a lot of revelation. But it was 33 years ago and I have found it "not applicable" to this world, so I have, mostly, left it behind. However, in terms of this discussion, it is presenting one issue to be reconciled. While I was "dead" I still was, but I was not separate from the Being that was there reorienting me. We were one. So I can see where this little personna goes away as a separate point of awareness, but the experience I had was that death unites all consciousness within it. That is, the body appears to be a sort of reducing valve that creates the figment of separate existance. But enough of all that. Let's move in, as you say...

YOU said: So we've looked at thoughts.
you don't own them, they come and go, can't predict them.
We are not in control of them we could say.

I say: Agreed, but we can turn them off, can we not? More and more in meditation, they go away for me.

YOU say: Lets look at the body and see if there is an owner or entity controlling it.
Lift up one of your hands. either one.
Move it to the right. Now move it left. Look with your eyes what is happening.
Did a self move the hand?
Or did the hand just move?
Direct observation. Move it again. Check it.
Which is more true, the hand moved, or a self moved the hand?

I Say: I have noticed this autopilot effect almost all my life. I sleep walk and sleep talk and am, reportedly, quite lucid while doing so and yet have no memory of it later. It's pretty obvious "I" am not much in charge. Even right after I came back from my NDE, it was very apparent that "I" was not making my body move. I was not even conscious and yet I was on my feet, asking questions for several minutes before "I" became aware. There is some sort of doer, but it isn't the figmentory me. I mentioned this before, the body responds to perceived danger and then is the only time I notice any intention needing to be exerted to prevent the meat suit from doing harm.

You ask: Try looking at some very ordinary thing you do everyday....like typing.. like walking, driving..
Look at it while you are doing it. Can you find an entity directing things...
or is the movement just happening?

I Answer: No, I can't. The "I" with which I have identified is not the doer. But doing is happening, or appears to be, so who is the cause of it, one wonders.

Understand, I am here because the world has felt like a dream to me for many years. I have noticed that many people seem like props in that they seem to show up just when I either don't want them to, or need them to do so. There is this strange serendipity in which I have come to trust, even when things look bad, I feel detached. Time slips into slow motion and I can handle a near car wreck: BUT IT'S NOT "ME" DOING THE HANDLING. This is why I ask if the shift could occur and one not really notice it. I feel like a character in someone else's play and, outside of being perplexed by the apparent pointlessness of it all, I am mostly at peace. I have a strong dependance upon that other presence and tend to think of "him" as "the doer".

Today, after Ilona's gem, I feel very different. Things seem more alive and vivid but nothing matters. This, I can deal with. There's no sense of urgency. In fact, I don't much care about anything except I'd like to stay in this headspace. There's no sense of longing or loss, no real desire that things be any way other than they appear to be. Something has changed, but I've been here many times and gotten lost again in the dream. I'd like that vascillation to stop. The main difference seems to be that I am not grieving the loss of characters who never really existed. Whatever aspect of them was "real"= eternal before their death, no doubt, persists, so there's nothing to grieve. One cannot lose what wasn't ever real.


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