Elizabeth available?

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true worcester
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Elizabeth available?

Postby true worcester » Mon Apr 30, 2012 11:17 pm

Hi, Elizabeth, I like what I've seen of your work here. If you have time to take on another person, great, if not, could refer me to someone like you: patient, not too philosophical or pushy or spiritual. I'm probably already too much of all that, so it's probably not the way out for me. (?)
Have been quietly haunting this place, and other sort-of similar places, for a while. Have eaten up lots of nonduality, satsangs, psychologies, meditation practices, seeking, etc. Much too much of it: I feel like throwing it all up some times.
Hence the problem: I might already know all the answers and right things to say. And so I'm scared I won't really make the journey for real. So maybe I'll just try to keep "correctness" out of the pic. I might be a tough kooky, but at least I want to crack it.
Me is everywhere and is in everything. Looks like there is no way out of it. Seeking is for the sake of me. Every word written here: refers to ME and is full of ME. The desire to be free of ME is from ME: always this crazy, spiritual, arrogant, frustrated ME, creating all kinds of problems. ("Correct" statement deleted.)
Thank YOU!
Tr.W.

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Elizabeth
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Re: Elizabeth available?

Postby Elizabeth » Tue May 01, 2012 2:54 pm

Hello, true,
My fellow guides are giving me a hard time behind the scenes, now :-)
Nice to meet you.
What a good place to be, frustrated with the scope and immensity of the illusion. That means you are seeing it pretty clearly. And you are right, the only thing that wants to get rid of a ME is a ME.
What is this ME when you look? Ranting is helpful, kick out the stops if you like.
Not what you think you should say (yup, honesty is key) but what the ME believes it is. A few core beliefs that are darn sticky.
For instance, is it true that ME is crazy and arrogant and (oh dear) SPIRITUAL?

Much love, Elizabeth

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true worcester
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Re: Elizabeth available?

Postby true worcester » Tue May 01, 2012 4:44 pm

Thanks! I see I was on target with my 'personality' assessment...
What is this ME when you look? Ranting is helpful, kick out the stops if you like.
Not what you think you should say (yup, honesty is key) but what the ME believes it is.
What ME believes ME is! Oh, let ME just get started! ME is MY all, MY love, MY love-addiction, my obsession. ME is MY abusive spiritual leader, to whom I cling, despite all the controversy! ME is like the guy in Scandinavia who built a secret underground vault and locked his daughter there and fathered children with her. She started to think he was God! ME is supreme! ME is this glorious, pig-faced divinity; sickening, infinitely disgusting, all-compelling! I am like a teenage girl who habitually carves her arms with the knife of ME, or sells herself cheap to the subhuman pimp of ME. I am an ocean of tears. I am an ocean of truth. I am the buddha, I am the president, I am your killer, I am you.
For instance, is it true that ME is crazy and arrogant and (oh dear) SPIRITUAL?
Hard not to go down the road of spiritual beliefs here, so I would just say there's probably nothing crazy or arrogant, spiritual or pious, other than ME.

IS IT TRUE??????

I don't know how to answer without going into the "right" answers. Have to walk around for a day, I guess.

Thanks, Elizabeth,
true?

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true worcester
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Re: Elizabeth available?

Postby true worcester » Tue May 01, 2012 7:11 pm

A few core beliefs that are darn sticky.For instance, is it true that ME is crazy and arrogant and (oh dear) SPIRITUAL?
If there's stuff like "crazy" "arrogant" or "spiritual", must be human traits. That stuff doesn't happen in undisturbed nature. Yes, it's true. Craziness is from ME.
Am I crazy arrogant and spiritual? Sometimes, but doesn't always fit. There might be an intelligent reason for my kookyness, maybe being stuck-up has helped me survive, as well as trying on "spiritual". So no, those are labels; which did I put on, but they didn't stick so well. Labels don't stick, (over time, at least....)
There's a discrepency between a general ME and 'me', who I seem to be, no matter what I think about it.
Bleh.
t.

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Re: Elizabeth available?

Postby Elizabeth » Wed May 02, 2012 1:15 am

Hi, True,
Ah, the spinning, shapeshifting ME. Such continuous entertainment, a narrative voice-over for all events. No wonder so many meditators make it a goal to think no thoughts.
OK, let's look at these thoughts. The good news is that rather than work on each as a separate self-improvement project, we are going for the core mechanism. How does this thing keep spinning?

I'd like you to look directly at your experience. If it doesn't happen to a me, it's all accepting someone else's experience. Bleh, indeed. This, paradoxically, has to be entirely about YOUR individual exploration. YOU want to wake up to YOUR illusion.

In reality, where do thoughts come from? And "I don't know" is good information to have, if that is the truth.
Do YOU generate and control thoughts?

Love, Elizabeth

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Re: Elizabeth available?

Postby true worcester » Wed May 02, 2012 4:46 am

Is it true that ME is crazy and arrogant and (oh dear) SPIRITUAL?
Really, this looks more and more nonsensical and confusing. Where do craziness, and arrogance and antidotes and things come from? Zooming in, hard to figure out where they start or stand....Where's there some solid evidence that they come from a me? Would like to come back to this.
How does this thing keep spinning?
I totally don't know. Although I'm probably giving up to quickly, like usual...
it's all accepting someone else's experience.
Wow!! Glimmer of this: craziness and arrogance and hellfire, spirituality and positive thinking, none of them are really my own experience. They're second hand information! words that other people put on stuff that could really be a lot different or at least more indescribable without the words....

Will come back to the other questions tomorrow, I hope.
Thanks for tacking me into the wind,
M

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Re: Elizabeth available?

Postby Elizabeth » Wed May 02, 2012 1:56 pm

You are welcome!

In reality, where do thoughts come from? And "I don't know" is good information to have, if that is the truth.
Do YOU generate and control thoughts?

All these thoughts, constantly changing, attached to a you who is yanked around by each thought....
This is where meditation experience comes in handy.

Look at the thoughts. Trace the origin point. Where are these apparently powerful little suckers coming from?
Does a me come in on EVERY thought? Please check.
I find that when mind is racing, I write vast amounts of madness in a journal till it slows a bit and thoughts on paper can be seen with some sobriety :-)
Good luck!
Love, Elizabeth.

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true worcester
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Re: Elizabeth available?

Postby true worcester » Wed May 02, 2012 2:50 pm

In reality, where do thoughts come from?
Nows where I start to use logic. Yuck. Thoughts, they seem to come from the body, brain. But something is witnessing body and brian. (who is this "Brian" anyways?) They don't come from awareness, though, because awareness is "of" something, and it's not logical to say they come out from what sees them. It doesn't answer anything. So, why should there be any seeing of anything? If it's just awareness, it's just awareness. If originally there's awareness and also thoughts, then still, where the hell did thoughts come from? It's a never ending circle. In my present experience, there is no place thoughts come from. Only in logic (okay, thoughts) do I start to speculate or assume a source. As if thoughts are going to tell us where thoughts come from? I give up there. Poop.
Do YOU generate and control thoughts?
I'm a little scared of this. No control? Complete chaos, or living entirely off luck? What if I didn't make myself think positive, or outsmart the system? What if success and failure are random? What if I'll never feel okay again? What if the answer is NO. All thoughts are just raining down on brains, there are no umbrellas, we are at the whim of natural forces. Or of the past? like genetics and circumstances and food create certain shapes of thought, and it's all unfolding based on some past event like Adam and Eve had sex too young, and damaged eachother, and then tried to pray their way out of the pain, which locked it in, and now it's all passed on to us future strains of the same thought-bacteria. In my own present experience, I really can't make the claim that these thoughts are coming from me. I hardly recognize them. They're just words from a vocabulary that came from an external source, recombined in wierd ways. I'm sort of just watching them happen. No I don't see how I could be generating or controlling them. They're probably just as surprising (or not) to me as to somebody else. Whew. At least "I" still exists in this picture.

Thanks, E
Mark

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Re: Elizabeth available?

Postby true worcester » Wed May 02, 2012 2:52 pm

Oops, didn't see your more recent post. I'm forced to go deeper.
true

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Re: Elizabeth available?

Postby Elizabeth » Wed May 02, 2012 6:53 pm

Oops, didn't see your more recent post. I'm forced to go deeper.
true
:-)

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Re: Elizabeth available?

Postby true worcester » Wed May 02, 2012 10:29 pm

All these thoughts, constantly changing, attached to a you who is yanked around by each thought....
There's certainly something that's yanked around—some kind of web of sensations, emotions, reactions, and more thoughts. Sticky mess, whatever it is. Conventional term ME seems to apply. But then if ME is a web of other things, there's no real need to call it ME, would make more sense to call it "this web of blah blah."
Does a me come in on EVERY thought? Please check.
Well, whenever there's a thought about something that's "not me", a perception of difference of identity comes in. Thoughts of keyboard (and fingers!) are out there, in relation to me. I guess occasionally there are thoughts which are not interpreted as separative, like when an artist or meditator is in the flow. A merged ME might still be a ME.

On the other hand, both of these explorations are probably just about "a sense of self"; but the thing is, the sense of self still fools me into living as ME.

How do get deeper than the being fooled? Deeper than thinking about this?

Many thanks,
tw

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Re: Elizabeth available?

Postby Elizabeth » Thu May 03, 2012 1:32 pm

Hello, True,
Good work, and quite logical. Here's your words:
'They don't come from awareness, though, because awareness is "of" something, and it's not logical to say they come out from what sees them. It doesn't answer anything. So, why should there be any seeing of anything? If it's just awareness, it's just awareness. If originally there's awareness and also thoughts, then still, where the hell did thoughts come from? It's a never ending circle. In my present experience, there is no place thoughts come from. Only in logic (okay, thoughts) do I start to speculate or assume a source. As if thoughts are going to tell us where thoughts come from? I give up there. Poop.'

You've just examined the self-reflective nature of a ME building itself from thought. Never-ending circle.
It's a loop,by now quite automated.
There appears to be no me to be found, except that found in thought. And no me originating thoughts. And we have seen that a me claims ownership and doership. It happily parses experience, and tacks a Me onto it. Please check for this Me-ing in the next thoughts. That's why I asked about whether ME was attaching to every thought. You rightly replied that in flow, no me was being referenced. Please check that in your experience, there are usually large chunks of life you can't remember, unless a me referenced it and stuck it in a remembered narrative of a me.

What if, and you do need to examine this in your life to believe it, what if a me is like a fictional character in a movie? We all know ABOUT Harry Potter, his story, his qualities, his friends, foes, environment. You know all ABOUT a True.
Now, how much of the story of you exists right this second, in the now? And how much is kept as a rather unreliable history, and even a totally fictitious future?
In reality, in this second, without reaching into a mental construct, is there a you? Or that awareness you mentioned?

Ummph, that is enough for a day, and a couple of experiments to try out. No need to believe it till you try it, for sure.
Much love, Elizabeth

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Re: Elizabeth available?

Postby true worcester » Fri May 04, 2012 3:59 pm

Hello, pretty busy here, but trying to get more experiential.
Can you control thought?
It's already 'too late' when I try to steer it: it already came and went. And it's 'too early' to generate thoughts. Can't get before a thought in order to plan it. Cool.
Please check for this Me-ing in the next thoughts.
It's hard to see clearly whether the 'ME claim' is totally constant, hidden around the corner, or actually absent. The label itself is usually too slippery.
Unless, I suppose, I get poked or blamed for something, like earlier today. There was a whole ME artillery instantaneously ready for action. First, there was a thought about a threat, other-against-me. That created hot sensations, twitches, tensing muscles, and then words of retort quickly formed.
Okay, just sitting here now, the next thought is..."I don't have much time to do this, so I better do it quickly." Yes, there's definitely labeling and claiming. Or at least the bodymind puts out a label so it can behave in certain ways in order to avoid suffering, in this case, an idea about losing time.
Next thought..."That water bottle has been there half full for a few days, it might not be clean." Implied that "I" shouldn't drink the water. But again, that's the bodymind maneuvering for survival.
Next..."Breathing feels slightly tight, leaning on this chair." More subtle maneuvering of the bodymind for comfort or health.
It could be that there is no "I" implied anywhere here, just an alert nervous system using labeling to avoid suffering and increase pleasure. Same with the "self defense" incident, above.
Sounds as if there could be "self-centeredness" without a self-center. It's innocent biological functioning, even when distorted or inaccurate or destructive.
...in flow, no me was being referenced. Please check that in your experience, there are usually large chunks of life you can't remember, unless a me referenced it and stuck it in a remembered narrative of a me.

This description helps, thanks. When I look back, there certainly are large gaps, and instances where I don't really know when or how I got someplace. And the bodymind was probably still defending itself properly, in the meantime! There was no me being referenced, only biological needs and unfolding conditions. Then, afterward there was pasted on a story about it: absent-minded, tired, in his own world.
what if a me is like a fictional character in a movie?
I think there's a little whiff of sadness considering that it isn't real, as if that means it won't be fully inhabited or felt. Or as if I died, and the character is seen from above. Whether seen from above or from an audience point of view, or from within the face, there's still a temptation to say "I'm" seeing this fictional character. That's the separate "awareness" concept too, as if there's an I who is awareness and it can be separated or united with the character.
Now, how much of the story of you exists right this second, in the now?
Depends on perspective. From a certain view, the story is vivid. From another, the pixels on the movie screen aren't a story, they're just millions of little flashes, doing their own thing, without effort or doership. A gapless gap, because the brain is not blanking out, but there's also not much of a story either. Or the story is made of non-story, so there can be a story and gap at the same time!
And how much is kept as a rather unreliable history, and even a totally fictitious future?
Yes, it's very clear how unreliable historical stories are. They morph instantly with a slight change in perspective. A future is obviously just thoughts and stories about history, and even more and diaphanous or flimsy.
In reality, in this second, without reaching into a mental construct, is there a you? Or that awareness you mentioned?
Without a story, there is nothing but pixels. Makes no sense to say there is no awareness, because without awareness can't even say there are pixels. But neither makes sense to say that awareness is a thing or a ME. Awareness and pixels are simultaneous and inseparable. Or pixels are self-luminous. I betray some of my spiritual training here, but that's also how it looks, experientially. Or, I should say, that's how it looks when I inspect it. But when I'm not inspecting these things, I'm not living as if they're true.

Sorry for the sad ending.
Thank you very much for what you do.
TW

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Re: Elizabeth available?

Postby Elizabeth » Sat May 05, 2012 1:42 pm

Hi True,
Another way to express the "can't control thoughts" is to examine whether "thoughts can think". This makes me a little dizzy but rewards contemplation.

Ah, discovering that the body-mind uses thoughts ABOUT things to enhance survival, you bet. Useful tool indeed, to have this mental construct and ability to store experience, even other people's experience.
Perhaps overused? Is there any need to tack on an identifier to the extent that is seen? Please keep checking to see how far this ME. I, MINE. YOUR, THEIRS addition to thought, goes.
If used without awareness, can this be a mechanism for attachment and thereby, suffering?

You wrote in response:
"Now, how much of the story of you exists right this second, in the now?[/quote]
Depends on perspective. From a certain view, the story is vivid. From another, the pixels on the movie screen aren't a story, they're just millions of little flashes, doing their own thing, without effort or doership. A gapless gap, because the brain is not blanking out, but there's also not much of a story either. Or the story is made of non-story, so there can be a story and gap at the same time! "

So clearly we are able to live as paradox. I'm going to use the words human and transcendent here. Both (One, All, Unity) are always present, we are just habituated to thinking of a self, as a self, and through a self-concept. This is why we are looking at the illusion of that separate self. Maybe a beginning step, but an important one.

And this means that we are already living as that numinous oneness, never were not living as that. So as we see through the mechanism of self in thought, please stay open to what that obscures.

For me, after doing this same work, I just noticed that there was no I doing the laundry. Completely not needed. Not a single thought that had an I in was required for doing a load of laundry. That was the window.
I invite you to simply go around your day, seeing those gaps in the Me-story, being aware of how much of life gets done, in you and in nature, without any need for a self-construct.
Sit down once in a while and look at the experience, keep writing it down, follow the thoughts, the thoughts about the thoughts...and see if typing requires an I, or if thoughts just appear on the page without anyone thinking them.

Pretty meaty post you handed us, thank you.
Elizabeth

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true worcester
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Re: Elizabeth available?

Postby true worcester » Thu May 10, 2012 3:27 pm

Hello
the body-mind uses thoughts ABOUT things to enhance survival, you bet. Useful tool indeed, to have this mental construct and ability to store experience, even other people's experience. Perhaps overused? Is there any need to tack on an identifier to the extent that is seen? Please keep checking to see how far this ME. I, MINE. YOUR, THEIRS addition to thought, goes. If used without awareness, can this be a mechanism for attachment and thereby, suffering?
Yes, unaware overuse of the conceptual tools of {me, i, mine, you, yours, them, theirs, us, ours} is the source of separateness and suffering. Acceptance of them as 'actual truth' seems to pervade our normative conscious as well as our subconscious minds. But how far do they go in actual reality? Maybe they only brush the 'surface' of reality; they can't be found in the nature of reality. Thoughts are sparkling ripples in a self-luminous ocean, they don't pervade the ocean.

Checking: sitting here, the I-thought is present, 'claiming ownership' of limbs, fingers, eyes, sensations, volition, choice, action. Thought is suggesting that I am separate from my marriage partner; I am separate from a structure of time that appears; I am separate from my awakening. This thought is accepted, and this separation is accepted and assumed. It colors dream as well as waking. It drives and directs action and resistance to action. It swallows everything. I become a seeker, again....

Checking: this thought I is a thought. It is a label, a word, a theme. It can be observed. Sitting here, thoughts come and go. Some themes return more frequently. Thoughts about tiredness and wellbeing, thoughts finding solutions to certain situational problems, these appear frequently now. The backdrop of these thought-themes is 'I am me.' This meta-theme is seen as appearing highly frequently. Gaps are difficult to find.

Checking, this meta-theme is seen to be an overlay on experience. It is experienced. It is not separate from experiencing. This is sort of like the visual exercise recommended by adriandc. The I-thought-theme fills the open field of vision, like other phenomena. The difference between it and other phenomena is that it's extremely subtle and slippery; it can appear to be gone when it's not. And it clings to other phenomena, coloring them. Any i/seer that is posited, however, is seen experientially as a phenomenon only.

This repeated checking seems to be a practice, practiced by the ME. If so, the ME can only pretend to see that it is only a thought-phenomenon. What if I just keep practicing, holding the illusion in place?

Thanks,
TW


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