Jewel, welcome here.

[Ilona]

Hi Jewel, thank you for your message. i am available and i will help you to find the missing piece of the puzzle. all you need to do is answer precise questions with full honesty. i will point you where to look, you investigate and answer when ready at least once a day.

please introduse yourself and tell about your journey so far. where are you on the map? just so i have an idea about time zone.

how did you find us and what brings you here?

looking forward to our conversation.
sending love.

[jewel]

Hi Ilona,

thanks for your willingness to work with me. I'm on the west coast of the US, in the Pacific time zone. I have been in "spiritual" environs for years, and have hovered around the LU boards for a month or two. I read about you somewhere on facebook, probably Nona, but not sure. I am in the byron katie world most these days, but spend some time also in advaita, and buddhism. lately i find the Byron katie work to spend too much time on the fiction- the story-line of this character 'jewel' and the scrapes she gets into. its' the long way to the truth, i am finding.

What i am so tired of is being a professional seeker. i dont want to seek. it is a never ending trip. and i am increasingly unhappy with the seeking im doing. i want it to stop.

repeatedly, in several ways and situations i have experienced that the self story is only thoughts, images, feelings arising,and that other than those there simply is no proof. Ive worked with Scott Kiloby and with his method experienced very clearly that it's all mirrors, there's no person there. experiencing was happening- that's all. no proof of an experiencer. For a long while I was finding "that which is hearing these words", or "that which is witnessing", and it became clear i was really seeing "that" as self. When i went looking for that "aware self" though, it too was nowhere to be found. just more thoughts. thoughts proving thoughts. the looker is not the self, and the seer of the looker is not the self. it was like when you have 2 mirrors facing each other, and each mirror reflects the image of the other one, image on image on image on image, and none of those images are anything more than pictures, which are mental constructs. none of them are real. the feeling that that realization brought on was huge, love is the only word for it, but it's too small a word, inadequate.

Most often though, I'm in between these realizations, and living as if the character "me' is real, as if the events of the character's life are real, as if the rejection by this man or that job or that argument or that irritation or that failure is real. i attach to the suffering and think there's something to fix. this is not fun.

I'd like to remember in a more lasting way that it's playacting, and to have a firmer grip.

wow, it's hard putting words on all this. guess i better get used to it though... as we get to work. : )

thanks again for doing what you do.

love,
jewel

[jewel]

ps- i prefer not to work with the byron katie crowd here on LU, so thank you again

[Ilona]

Thanks for the answer, jewel.

What I get from it is that you are tired of seeking. Enough is enough. It ends right here- when you face the question directly. There is no you. Is it true?

What comes up, when you let this thought in:
There is no self at all, none as in zero. No me, no I, no control over what is happening, no manager of universe, no higher, no lower self, no mirrors, no watcher, no observer. All here is is life happening.

Describe the feeling that rises as this thought is looked at.

Sending love.

[jewel]

just touching base Ilona- to let you know im still involved. i have suddenly gotten very busy with client emergencies for today and tomorrow. will do my best to write back in between, hopefully today.

[Ilona]

Thanks for checking in.
And when you get really busy there is an oporunity to watch how all the action is happening effortlessly.
Speak soon.

[jewel]

There is no you. Is it true?

yes

What comes up, when you let this thought in:
There is no self at all, none as in zero. No me, no I, no control over what is happening, no manager of universe, no higher, no lower self, no mirrors, no watcher, no observer. All here is is life happening.

Describe the feeling that rises as this thought is looked at.

what comes up is, relief, a feeling of expansiveness, openness. the feeling is wonderful. it is experienced as truth.

[Ilona]

:) nice!

How is your day today? What is the feeling? Describe in detail, please.
Much love.

[jewel]

How is your day today? What is the feeling? Describe in detail, please.

the day is still early here, 9:30am. am so far feeling inexplicably good, calm, peaceful basically content for no reason (unusual for me). at the moment am experiencing very little attachment to things/events. sensation labeled hunger happens, curiosity happens, tightness in solar plexus happens, table happens, cat happens... things appear, images happen, feelings happen, experiences happen.

that's all. everything else is concepts heaped on experience, "meaning" placed on experience. and 'meaning' is just thought, just another happening- there's nothing there.

I think we humans are delusional and crazy. We've heaped so much crap on top of the simpleness and richness of living. And considering how much misery that brings, why on earth would we cling to the right to do that and fight so desperately to not let all that unnecessary meaning go? We're nuts.

[Ilona]

i agree completely, humans walk in a haze of their own thinking, thinking that this is all there is! crazy stuff. :)
i see that shift is happening and gateless gate is melted away. very nice, and i'm delighted to hear that. when you are ready, please answer these questions, as truthfully and fully as you can.


1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.
3) How does it feel to see this?
4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion.
5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

no rush at all, you may take a day or two, when you ready.

sending love!

[jewel]

thanks Ilona, it will likely be Friday before I have the moments to really answer your questions. Will post then.

thanks and love,
Jewel

[jewel]

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

no. there isn't, and wasn't. there are very convincing thoughts that things happen to a location-based me. examination reveals not only no proof of that, but also proof of the opposite instead.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

the self is thoughts. the illusion is in the belief that the thoughts of self are real, so it's thought (which is what belief is) proving thought. there's no there there- it's all nothing on top of nothing.

i can only guess how it starts, and feel reluctant to do that, since it's just more thinking. i imagine we see parents believe they're a self, they name us, tell us we're a self, and we believe. And i don't know. I'm also not sure how or why thinking becomes so much more convincing than direct experience; how it becomes possible to miss that the seeing a leaf is a thought, which somehow becomes a conviction that what is seen is "out there' rather than just a seamless seeing. I don't know how direct experiencing becomes ignored or not enough in itself. I don't know how that happens or why.

3) How does it feel to see this?

comforting, calming, a relief, fascinating, joyous.

4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion.

I don't think I would describe it, especially since my describing my experience is useless for them. I might show them that believing in fairy stories can hurt, and if they don't want to suffer, it's a good place to look. If they want help to discover for themselves, (which is basically what my day-job is- helping people discover truth), I would ask to be shown, without using thoughts and images (which are just thoughts in picture form), where exactly this self is. Where is this self one is so sure is there? If it's so obviously"there", it should be findable.

5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

I was tired of hurting, blaming or being to blame. I saw that I couldn't prove you're a you, that what I think I see is always and only filtered and can't be trusted as real. It's experience edited by thought. And If I can't prove you're real, how can i know I am not also thought's creation? the only thing that proved self, is thoughts that said so. And what are thoughts? They're nothing. I saw how relieving it is to recognize the play as fiction, to not be separate from experience, to not be personal, just part of seamless being. Who wouldn't want that?

[Ilona]

Thank you for answers. It's sound clear and I'll get my friends to look at them and get you more questions or confirmation.

Let it settle in. We'll talk more tomorrow.
I'm delighted for you! Much love.

[jewel]

♥♥♥

[Ilona]

:)
How is it feeling? Any big or small observable changes? How is the feeling of seeking, describe the best you can
Is there any doubt at all?

Lots of love.