I may be awake but I'm still groggy

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strostel
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I may be awake but I'm still groggy

Postby strostel » Mon Apr 09, 2012 5:18 am

I have experienced no-self, and I understand it completely. There is no doubt in "my" conscious mind that the self is an illusion. but I don't think I have realized it with the whole of my being. Subconsciously, my body-mind still thinks it is something separate from the world, and I still have desires and attachments. Can someone farther along than myself guide me away from this illusion? It seems as if my mind does not want to acknowledge and live the truth, even though it knows the truth in concept. Can the body ever wake up completely from the illusion as my conscious mind already has?

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Patrick
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Re: I may be awake but I'm still groggy

Postby Patrick » Mon Apr 09, 2012 8:52 am

Hi,

Let's start with some questions to see where you need some pointing at.

What is direct experience?
What is the sense of self?

all the best,
Patrick

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Patrick
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Re: I may be awake but I'm still groggy

Postby Patrick » Mon Apr 09, 2012 11:28 am

Hi Sean,

You posted also on the thread of adriandc.
Do you want to follow his thread or do you continue here?

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strostel
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Re: I may be awake but I'm still groggy

Postby strostel » Mon Apr 09, 2012 1:23 pm

I will continue here, thank you for responding!

What is direct experience?

Direct experiece is that which my body and mind perceives in the present moment. It is not caught up in past or future events, and involves no attachment to the effects of the present moment. There are no expectations or desires, because these things are temporal, and direct experience exists only in one moment - the present.

What is the sense of self?

The sense of self is that illusion of identity that "my" mind does not want to give up. It is the subconscious feeling that one is a separate entity from his surroundings. It directly causes thoughts and ideas based on that separateness, and these thoughts and ideas generally lead to suffering.

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Patrick
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Re: I may be awake but I'm still groggy

Postby Patrick » Mon Apr 09, 2012 2:25 pm

What are your expectation of liberation?

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strostel
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Re: I may be awake but I'm still groggy

Postby strostel » Mon Apr 09, 2012 3:25 pm

What are your expectation of liberation?

I expect to no longer attach to my expectations. I expect to know beyond any doubt that I have awakened from illusion, and to know and feel subconsciously at all times that I am not the illusory self that I have identified with in the past. I expect to no longer have the idea that one state of being is superior to another. I expect to no longer have a desire or attachment toward what I see as my ideal life. Many teachers say that once you are awake, there is no doubt in your mind that you have awakened. I know for sure that I have recognized the nonseparateness of everything in this world, but I suppose my mind is worried that if I stop my pursuit now, I will miss out on something greater. I can't tell if what I have found is it, or if it is just a taste of something much greater.

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Patrick
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Re: I may be awake but I'm still groggy

Postby Patrick » Mon Apr 09, 2012 4:35 pm

The sense of self is that illusion of identity that "my" mind does not want to give up

Who has this thought ?

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strostel
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Re: I may be awake but I'm still groggy

Postby strostel » Mon Apr 09, 2012 4:40 pm

No one has the thought, the thought is the expression of the current state of my mind.

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Patrick
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Re: I may be awake but I'm still groggy

Postby Patrick » Mon Apr 09, 2012 5:09 pm

No one has the thought, the thought is the expression of the current state of my mind.

If there is no one to have a thought it must be life itself that is going on with thoughts.
Thoughts are real, sometimes the content is useful for life, sometimes it is just story building.

Do you see directly that a thought about ‘I’, me, sense of self, observer, witness is just a thought coming after a direct experience?
Do you see directly how the identification builds up, the story of "my" mind does not want to give up?

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strostel
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Re: I may be awake but I'm still groggy

Postby strostel » Mon Apr 09, 2012 5:35 pm

Do you see directly that a thought about ‘I’, me, sense of self, observer, witness is just a thought coming after a direct experience?
Yes I see that, and I see that it is just the mind which does not want to give up control. But the mind exists nonetheless, and it is wondering if it is worthwhile to keep searching, or to just give up the search altogether. I (my mind) worry that if I give up my 'quest' for enlightenment now, I may be giving up too soon, before I have quite reached where I need to be. I worry that I will simply fall back into old habits if I stop my search.
Do you see directly how the identification builds up, the story of "my" mind does not want to give up?
Yes I see this. I guess I am wondering how do I go about dissolving my sense of identity? Or does it even need to be dissolved? I realize I need to give up trying to change myself, but at the same time that giving up is a change in itself.

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strostel
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Re: I may be awake but I'm still groggy

Postby strostel » Mon Apr 09, 2012 6:03 pm

Hm. Perhaps the less that I search, the more I will find?

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Re: I may be awake but I'm still groggy

Postby Patrick » Mon Apr 09, 2012 6:42 pm

How could ‘you’ dissolve the sense of identity? Who is going to do that?
If it is seen as an illusion does it needs to be dissolved?

Write from direct experience, not from the mind.
Take your time to look with total honesty.
Look how the answer is build up while you write it.

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strostel
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Re: I may be awake but I'm still groggy

Postby strostel » Mon Apr 09, 2012 8:52 pm

How could ‘you’ dissolve the sense of identity? Who is going to do that?

I suppose you're right. That would be the mind battling against itself. Does the mind of an arahant still identify as a separate entity?

If it is seen as an illusion does it needs to be dissolved?

I suppose not. I think my mind is just afraid to accept the truth. Subconsciously, it seems like it would not be much fun to live without something to work towards, strive for, or attain. I see how ridiculous this is, but I guess I have a fear of not having a direction to follow. How did you get over the fear of the unknown? the fear of not having a direction to follow?

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Patrick
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Re: I may be awake but I'm still groggy

Postby Patrick » Tue Apr 10, 2012 11:54 am

Guessing is just the mind playing and fooling yourself.
Looking sees through the illusions of the mind.
Look with total honesty.
Look at the fear. Do you feel it in the body somewhere? Are there feelings associated with this bodily sensations? What are the thoughts mingled with the feelings about fear?

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strostel
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Re: I may be awake but I'm still groggy

Postby strostel » Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:52 pm

The fear feels like a thin layer covering the back of my mind. There are fears that I will disappoint my parents, fears that I will lose everything that I have worked for, fears that what I find will not ben enough.


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