Looking

[Kiiya]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That my self identity is made of of thoughts, me , I, thinking, there is awerness before thought.....thinking,this awerness is ever present and has no centre.....its everywhere and seems to be everything. Recognition of this comes and goes

What are you looking for at LU?
Some support and feedback with the process of disidentifying with this false sence of self sometimes by sharing things with like minded people insight arises you see things from anthor perspective......mmm it feels good to connect and share

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I don't expect anything to be honest,never had a guided conversation be great full for a deeper understanding of the truth of no self,it's feels so familiar like something that's forgotten then remembered understanding seems to come & go there's a genuine openers to enquire deeper

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Been meditating for 10 years silent sitting simply watching.......the body, the mind, the emotions

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?: 11

[Andrei]

Hi Kiiya,

Welcome to LU. I would be happy to help you on your path.

So the "self" is thoughts. Awareness is ever present. (Maybe.)
What exactly do you identify with?
What is it that feels "personal"?



Andrei

[Kiiya]

Identification is with this self and it's thoughts what feels personal is the feeling of this self and it's thoughts

[Andrei]

Ok... I was hoping for a more elaborate answer.
Anyway, you're saying the self creates or owns thoughts? How does it do that?

Also, what is the self? And I mean every little details you can think of. What is it made of? Where is it located? How did it appear?

If you want to get anywhere with this inquiry, first step is to figure out in detail what are you working with. If the "self" is this bundle of stuff orbiting somewhere around you, you need to catch it and break it into little pieces to see what is it made of. Just labelling it "the self" and hopping it will magically disappear won't do the trick.

[Kiiya]

Hi Andrei u asked what is this self.....This self is me and by that I mean this identification I'm having with in my head with thoughts about me...kiiya there is this sense that I exist as a person...A body, right now as I'm looking for what's true my experience is there's a nothingness and then I thoughts rush in to fill this space it all appears to be happening as a series of thoughts I'm having about myself and feelings this me is having also I notice when I'm looking confusion arises it's like my mind is trying to protect or cover something....does that make any sense? All of this seems to be made up of thoughts and ideas that I'm identifing with for instance right now I'm thinking that there's no way I'm ever going to able to figure this out then comes a feeling of hopelessness my chest feels tight now there's just this feeling this sense of me it seems to be coming from nowhere and everywhere I suppose I could say it's located I'm my head feeling confused again.....This whole storey seems to appered out of nothing

[Andrei]

I notice when I'm looking confusion arises it's like my mind is trying to protect or cover something....does that make any sense?

Yes it does and your explanation was needed to know what we're dealing with. Everybody is different and they all have different views on what their "self" is.

I'm thinking that there's no way I'm ever going to able to figure this out then comes a feeling of hopelessness

You will. As long as you don't give up the inquiry you have a very good chance to make it. The technique we use here actually works :)

Speaking of which, here we use something called Direct Experience aka Direct Pointing.
DE is the original input one gets through SENSATIONS and SENSES, that tension you feel in your arm before labelling it as good (a tickle) or bad (a burn), the noise you hear before you interpret it as coming from a vehicle or elsewhere. DE is what is, prior to any sort of interpretations done by the mind.

So, staying in DE, I want you to look and see whether there is a "self" ( and by "self" I also mean "ego", "I", "person", etc.) anywhere to be found.

[Kiiya]

Hi Andrei....so there is no self to be found while looking is happening there is the i thought or the me thought it's seems to be just a thought there's nothing behind it's theres only emptyness......shit! Is that right? So simple so direct it's the same with the body or the ego there just thoughts but there's no one behind them it's just this idea I been carring without questioning it as soon as I enquire what the truth is there's nothing so would that mean when walking there's only walking no walker no me doing it.....its just a happening a moment of energy the same with feelings when happy there's just happyness no one who feeling it is this the truth that's being pointed to?

[Andrei]

there's nothing behind it's theres only emptyness......shit! Is that right? So simple so direct it's the same with the body or the ego there just thoughts but there's no one behind them it's just this idea I been carring without questioning it as soon as I enquire what the truth is there's nothing so would that mean when walking there's only walking no walker no me doing it....

That's it! :)

this the truth that's being pointed to?

Simple, isn't it? It's the thoughts weaving the stories that make things complicated.

there is the i thought or the me thought it's seems to be just a thought there's nothing behind it's theres only emptyness

The I-thought, all the thoughts really - do you create them or do they just pop up?

And second, is there any tension, any arising fear at the thought you do not exist?

[Kiiya]

Andrei.....Thank you soooo much soooo great full it's was the DE that it did there was an imidiate recognition of course so simple so true,thoughts just pop up from nowhere.....ha ha! feeling so relaxed so happy again out of nowhere it feels totally natural that I don't exist I'm am nothing you are nothing this nothing is nothing! Yeeeepeeee! Feeling to ask you if there's something I can do give back to youguys there at liberation unleashed feeling really open to offering any support with anything once again thank you Andrei so very greatful :)

[Andrei]

Did you just called me "nothing"? How dare you? Here I am trying to help and you insult me! :))

Thank you soooo much soooo great full it's was the DE that it did there was an imidiate recognition of course so simple so true,thoughts just pop up from nowhere

You're welcome. I'm glad when I can help :)

So, is it "done"? No "self" to be found anywhere? No doubts appearing?

[Kiiya]

Mind is still there........thoughts,the difference now is there's no one experienceing them nowI this all feels very new and in a way quite raw......If that makes sense? So for now no doubts just space I'd like to keep in touch with u......If that's ok? Let's see how things settle over the next weeks on the one hand it's a simple recognition on the other a complete anilation of the self can you share your experience after your recognition and how this integrated in every day life would be very greatful to hear about it

[Andrei]

We can keep in touch, no problem.
LU has more resources than just this forum. For instance we have a few FB groups for aftercare and further inquiry where you can join and chat with others who have seen through the illusion of the self and beyond.
If you'd like to do that let me know. I will have to ask you a few more questions.

Now, about my experience. Not much changed after seeing through the illusion of the self, just a general feeling of relaxation. My "understanding" somehow deepened especially after I started guiding and I was presented with new information, new situations, opinions, etc. Like a year or so ago I found out this wasn't the end of line and that the illusion of the self was just step one really. In the Buddhist tradition there are 9 other fetters/beliefs to see through, and I started to work on those too. (I mentioned the Fetters system but there are other paths as well, techniques by Greg Goode or Rupert Spira, etc.) And now to me it seems that the journey doesn't really ever end. It's like a continuous "deepening". Even when chatting with you guys here on the forum I learn new things, I find a new perspective (and sometimes even a word!) that triggers a shift, deepening my understanding. It's like growing up I guess. As long as one is insightful and open minded, many things can start to unveil.
Oh and if you manage to make DE not just a technique to use every now and then, but turn it into the new norm, you're all set. You don't need anything else. Life becomes meditation.
Ofc life itself, the outer conditions, don't change. Just the way we relate to it does. And that is what makes it perfect :)

[Kiiya]

Hi Andrei.....The fb group feels good would be great to connect with people and share.....what's your feeling

[Andrei]

The groups are for those who have been confirmed to have seen through the illusion of the self.
Would you like to continue with the inquiry? Like I said I have some more questions to ask.

[Kiiya]

Yes