Open invitation, jump in and start the dialogue

This is a read-only part of the forum. All threads where seeing happens are stored here and come from this forum, the Facebook guiding area and various LU blogs. The complete list, sorted by guide, contains all links. The archives include threads of those that came to LU already seeing as well.
User avatar
Patrick
Posts: 803
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2012 10:29 am
Location: Belgium

Open invitation, jump in and start the dialogue

Postby Patrick » Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:20 pm

Welcome,

Let’s walk together to and through the Gateless Gate.

To begin the dialogue could you answer the following question:

What are your expectations?

User avatar
Cinnamon
Posts: 33
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 3:46 pm

Re: Open invitation, jump in and start the dialogue

Postby Cinnamon » Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:40 pm

I'm not so sure this is the right thing to do, but I'll give it my best. Actually, there was an impuls from the energy felt by your post. Have been here only for a few days, hesitating. Now, the hands were drawn to start typing.

My story in short: Started the journey 6 years ago, and quickly attended a retreat with a self-realized guy. With the aid of him, I took a ride through the gateless gate, exactly as described in many of the threads here. I was totally unaware of the "spiritual game" and it was easy for him to push me over. All the ingredients were there: the seeing of the total illusion/dream of what I used to call reality, seeing myself everywhere, as nothing and everything at the same time - although "time" had me rolling on the floor, since there was obviously no reality to it. I had a "fire works" awakening, with the inside-outside thing suddenly becoming irrelevant since it was just being That as This, seeing existence from anther place totally, being as openness and infinite space, eternal and free, love-movement-sound-frequency-energy being One, constant lovemaking/ecstacy going on in the "field". "I" became redundant. Buddha laughter trying to find "me" - it just dissolved into nothingness. This body-mind system floated there for about 6 months, and life went on as normal with work, thoughts, emotions flowing through etc. And then a thought was believed, and a contraction was felt. It was seen through and dissolved. But they came faster and faster and before I knew it - the "I" contracted into mind again, misidentifying itself again. No support group available. So that's one thing I found attractive here. =)

Since then, I've been left in an absurd world of living two realities, dancing a tango in and out of time. Since then there has been waves of energy overload and loads of uncomfortable bodily symptoms, despair, anxiety, depression, you name it. And more and more storybuilding, although "knowing" it's quite ridiculous.

Now it is as if the mindforce has decided it's not gonna let it be so easy the next time, cementing a victim role. People have told me it's not gonna be the same the next time. Expectations are thus high! Can it really be different the second time? Will it come more slowly or will it be a big KAZAAM like then? Feels like the system just flips when I start just LOOKING, like a fuse switching off, to prevent it, cause we "know" where that will lead... Fear mixed with a lot of belief in warnings of others, not to open too quickly before the system is enough purified cause the energies will tear the system apart...

I'm ready to give this a try anyway. Forgive me if the system goes into error and choses to escape.

User avatar
Patrick
Posts: 803
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2012 10:29 am
Location: Belgium

Re: Open invitation, jump in and start the dialogue

Postby Patrick » Fri Feb 24, 2012 8:08 pm

Hi Cinnamon,
Thanks for jumping in.
I’ll put sentences from your text in green followed by my comments in black.

Actually, there was an impuls from the energy felt by your post.
There is clearly an intention and a convergence of energies.

No support group available.
That’s why aftercare is taken serious at Liberation Unleashed. There is an aftercare group at this website and on Facebook. No one has to be left alone.

And more and more storybuilding, although "knowing" it's quite ridiculous.
You see already that ‘knowing’ doesn’t work. There has to be a direct seeing.

Can it really be different the second time?

This is not about a second time. It’s completely different.
It’s all about seeing what is Real. What is seen cannot be unseen.

What is direct experience? What is Real ?
See first the questions, stay with them for a while, don’t go into any story or knowing.
Answer with total honesty and in your own words.

All the best,
Patrick

User avatar
Cinnamon
Posts: 33
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 3:46 pm

Re: Open invitation, jump in and start the dialogue

Postby Cinnamon » Sat Feb 25, 2012 8:58 am

This is truly a challenge, and I thank you for it! The "don't go into any story or knowing"... has shaken the system! Ruthless honesty is needed here. I must take it from where I am now.

A direct experience is perception of whatever is present at the moment without interpretation of any kind. As I write I get a heart touch and I see Life happening innocently, as if it has to, no choice and no stopping, constantly happening. And there's a perceiver of that. Here, though, it's still centered around an "I" perceiving.

From where I'm at now, sensations in the body are most easily directly experienced. Just sensing needs no mental framework, no interpretation, no story. I can only have a direct experience of how it feels right now, not how it felt a nanosecond ago or how it will feel a nanosecond ahead.

Real. I can only say I'm utterly confused here. I see the mind spins and goes through all memories of when I asked other's the same question just like you do now, cause I clearly could discern what was REAL and UNREAL, jada jada... Saying to people "It's IMPOSSIBLE to imagine, cause it's beyond the mind". I can see it's only a story now, and that reality is not valid or lived in actuality anylonger. But if what I experienced then as naturally "real" was not in fact "real"... A feeling of going mad comes. Then I honestly don't know what's real, and it takes me into a looong row of metathoughts... feelings of anger, inner argumentation, wanting to collect proofs from Mooji, Adyashanti and others who tell about that type of journey where it's absolutely possible to see Truth and descend into mind identification again, wanting to say "Totally different, huh? I'll get back to you on that one after the gateless gate has been passed again!" *smiling* (automatically, out of my control)

But I can see that mind activity. What's left as real right now is... seeing that spinning mind, feeling the frustration, a tense stomach, hearing the inner voices saying I'm such a failure and as soon as I believe those voices I get so heavy and tired, as soon as I quit believing them, just noticing them and recognizing them as repetitive thought patterns... there's a burst of self-compassion, heart opening and tears coming.

User avatar
Patrick
Posts: 803
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2012 10:29 am
Location: Belgium

Re: Open invitation, jump in and start the dialogue

Postby Patrick » Sat Feb 25, 2012 11:48 am

We are now on the direct path to the Gate. Going step by step.
Let’s take a step further.

I see Life happening innocently, as if it has to, no choice and no stopping, constantly happening.
And there's a perceiver of that.


Could you locate the perceiver? If there is a perceiver what is perceiving this perceiver?

User avatar
Cinnamon
Posts: 33
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 3:46 pm

Re: Open invitation, jump in and start the dialogue

Postby Cinnamon » Sun Feb 26, 2012 11:08 pm

Thank you! Already more joy present going into these questions! More smiling. More looking.

Great confirmation that you picked out only that sentence from the post. =) Thank you!

When that sentence was written - it was clarity. A quick glimpse. Just came.

Could you locate the perceiver?

Can't locate the perceiver, except it seems to be moving with this body in waking state, and looking out through these eyes. It can't look out from someone else's eyes directly, and definitely not through two or more pair of eyes at the same time. However, consciousness does seem to have a possiblity to merge with other beings (human or other) perceiving how it is to be boiling water, a tree or the sun for a while, for example. When closing the eyes and going into deep meditation - it's impossible to locate the perceiver, when the sense of having a body is gone. The experiencing just happens.

If there is a perceiver what is perceiving this perceiver?

Something is just aware that this info intake flowing through the physical senses, or through consciousness, is happening.

Sitting with this question and bursting out in giggles now and then.

Feeling a rather funny clash between the old serious "But, Cinnamon, this is all happening to you!" and the lighter version of just staying with that awareness.

User avatar
Patrick
Posts: 803
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2012 10:29 am
Location: Belgium

Re: Open invitation, jump in and start the dialogue

Postby Patrick » Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:51 pm

Starting from a bodily sensation:

There is sensation. A thought is arising. The content of the thought is a label like “there is a sensation in the knee”. Other thoughts come in “I don’t like this sensation”, “I must do something to eliminate this sensation”.

A direct experience is real, a thought is real. The content of the thoughts are sometimes associations with previous content and are building up an information story.
The ‘I’, ‘me’, perceiver, looker, witness come from labeling, story building, and are in the end believed to be a real experience: the illusory ‘sense of self’ and the illusion to own the experience.

‘Go back to start’ to what is real and see how the story of the ‘I’ ,me, self builds up.
Stay with direct experiencing. See when a thought comes up.
See when the ‘I’ labeling and the ‘I’ story building starts.
See that it’s unreal. Don’t build a reality from this thoughts.
Play with this for a while with total focus.

User avatar
Cinnamon
Posts: 33
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 3:46 pm

Re: Open invitation, jump in and start the dialogue

Postby Cinnamon » Tue Feb 28, 2012 10:21 am

The content of the thoughts are sometimes associations with previous content and are building up an information story. The ‘I’, ‘me’, perceiver, looker, witness come from labeling, story building, and are in the end believed to be a real experience: the illusory ‘sense of self’ and the illusion to own the experience.

".. and are in the end believed..." This is what's baking my noodles. The thoughts just come and go. Repetitive and machine like. I don't know the source of thoughts. To create the sense of a "me" or "my thoughts" - there has to be a receiver and believer and something that identifies with the stories. What has the ability to believe and identify? It must be something that has that ability, since it's what's creating the illusionary sense of self... Something is deluded here. From doing a lot of The Work with Byron Katie, I've felt that sudden drop of belief many times, bringing instant relaxation, joy and freedom.

So..it's not the mind/personal sense of self that is going to be liberated, right? The mind/personal identity cannot be liberated, since it's just a construction. That's why they say "no person has ever been liberated". It's the believer that must see through the false belief and misidentification. What can hold/drop a belief? I don't find anything or anyone and I don't find any location of the believer, still belief is happening, like a cramp in the system, until it's dropped. I just logically see "the believer" is obviously separated from other beings, since some see through the illusion and some don't. That's why you are guiding "me" in this and not the other way around. What is Patrick guiding to the gate?

Feels like resistance is increasing. More muscular tensions when going into looking at the believer.

Following your exercise, backtracking that conclusion. Sensing the tension. Seeing the thoughts "I am resisting this, that's why I'm tense", concluding from past and learned stuff, "I'm unable to get passed this resistance", "This is how I always do" etc etc. Making it MY problem, my suffering and my responsibility, always resulting in failure and misery. Seeing that builiding of a personal story happening, allowing those thoughts since they are there anyway, dropping the belief that they hold any reality... immediately energy starts flowing through the muscles and tension drops, if not fully, so to a greater extent. And smiling happens. =)

I'll continue to play with this. It will take a while to be aware of this not only during focused practice, but during the day with its challenges.

- I can see I have an underlying assumption that when liberated - there will be no more physical tensions. Is that true? Do you have tensions still, Patrick? Or is it a constant relaxation?

- Another assumption is that I must be aware like this longer and longer periods until it's through out the day, or the shift will not happen. Is that true?

User avatar
Patrick
Posts: 803
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2012 10:29 am
Location: Belgium

Re: Open invitation, jump in and start the dialogue

Postby Patrick » Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:34 pm

It is not about getting rid of anything real. Tensions are part of life. They are real. There will always been situations in life where the body will react with tension. Only a death body is tensionless.

Liberation is about seeing through the illusory sense of self. Nothing disappears. Only the belief in an illusory self stops.

Is the ‘I’ responsible for life?
What if life is living itself without any one in charge?
Does the experiencing of being require an 'I'?
Is there a separate individual who is experiencing?
Look closely at the actual facts: do you exist as an individual?

Answer from direct experience and total honesty.

User avatar
Cinnamon
Posts: 33
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 3:46 pm

Re: Open invitation, jump in and start the dialogue

Postby Cinnamon » Wed Feb 29, 2012 9:52 am

I'm sorry, I can't answer from direct experience (=free from the distortion of I) yet. You'll only get my honesty.

Is the ‘I’ responsible for life?

No. It happens the way it wants to regardless of what I think of it or what I try to do to control it.

What if life is living itself without any one in charge?

It does seem to do that. I have even tested if actions need me to have a plan, intention, knowledge or even open eyes to be performed, and they don't. Body can move without guidance even from visual input. I can go shopping in a new store I've never visited, with eyes closed and not bump into any shelf or person, hand picking stuff from the shelves, and come out with only ecological groceries according to my preferences. I can lift the hands from the wheel when driving and the car drives itself perfectly without even this body being needed and just laughter and joy all around!

Now, I see fingers typing, a slow motion kind of feeling appears, a heavy stillness sinks into the body, sensations of a huge ocean wave going through the body, feels like it's being pushed and pulled into different movements, looking out the window now and then, lifting the napkin to blow its nose, as if a magnet or a strong wind is moving it. I don't have a clue of what it's going to do until it does it. Feels like sitting in a spaceship moving through space, having lost control over the streering equipment. The "I"-thoughts accepting it or protesting against it, doesn't change anything.

I've been letting go of the identification with/control over the body like this for years, letting it do what it does, and it seems to be the wrong road, leading nowhere, so I've quit going into that nowadays. But looking into these questions it comes more and more again... which makes me bewildered. Is it helpful or not?

Does the experiencing of being require an 'I'?


I don't know what being is. I have too many romantizied illusions of that. It's as if I'm experiencing the automatic movements of the body, seeing the birds flying outside the window and hearing the sound of the computor, and it's all happening to a me anyway, whether required or not. Stubborn thing this...

Is there a separate individual who is experiencing?

Yes and no. Perception and experiencing is definitely individualized and separated, yes. Since I can't experience what you are experiencing right now. And definitely not experiencing what 7 billion other human beings are taking in through their nervous systems right now. I can only take in what's going through THIS system right now. Or have you suddenly after liberation been able to take in perceptions from 7 billion people, a lot of more billion animals and not to talk about the insects... ? Phew. I imagine that would be an enormous info overload! =)

On the other hand... it often feels like it's just a "field" experiencing whatever is in the "field", and the boundaries of that field is sometimes expanded. Other's thoughts can be picked up in the field (to their often great surprise), emotions can be felt as if there's a big soup of impersonal emotions from all over the world and they can flow through the field. However, what happens here as I look into that - it also brings an expansion of "I". "I" now become a field of awareness... Same sense of I. Perhaps the "spiritual ego"? Probably. Same bullshit.

Look closely at the actual facts: do you exist as an individual?


I don't know what you mean by individual. It's very double right now. I am more than my name or personal identity attached to this body. Consciousness is wider than that. But still seems to be hanging around this body and wanting to call itself "I" and take cred for whatever it's doing.

There's some sort of border between you and me. Otherwise you'd be out of job, Patrick! =) Thank you for working with me.

User avatar
Cinnamon
Posts: 33
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 3:46 pm

Re: Open invitation, jump in and start the dialogue

Postby Cinnamon » Wed Feb 29, 2012 11:14 am

I'll spend the day looking and come back again!

User avatar
Patrick
Posts: 803
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2012 10:29 am
Location: Belgium

Re: Open invitation, jump in and start the dialogue

Postby Patrick » Wed Feb 29, 2012 5:53 pm

It happens the way it wants to regardless of what I think of it or what I try to do to control it.

Is this not a contradiction? Is life different from thoughts containing ‘I’ or thoughts with control ideas? Are these thoughts not life also? Are these thoughts not also coming up without any control independent of the content of the thoughts ? Can ‘you’ control thoughts? Can ‘you’ control the content of thoughts? Who made this thoughts? Does the brain needs someone to think thoughts?

This is ungraspable for the ‘mind’. That’s why it begins to make stories of an independent agent and to split off an illusory ‘sense of individual’ from the continuous flow of life. To this illusory individual a name ‘your firstname’ is attached, and continues to attach memories of experiences to this illusion.

To see the power of the mind to make illusions real, do the following exercise.
Close your eyes. Imagine that you hold a spoon in your hand. Build a complete image of the spoon with all the details. Feel its weight, its texture, its temperature. Imagine in vivid detail what it looks and feels like. Do this until the spoon feels real.

Then open your hand. Is the spoon there? It sensed so real, where is it gone?
The ‘sense of self’, the image of an individual, has been build over time in the same way. Was there ever a sense of self, an individual?
Once this is seen it’s gone forever, like the day you heard that Santa Claus was not real but a nice story. Did you ever believed again in Santa Claus?

Seeing happens.

User avatar
Cinnamon
Posts: 33
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 3:46 pm

Re: Open invitation, jump in and start the dialogue

Postby Cinnamon » Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:12 am

It happens the way it wants to regardless of what I think of it or what I try to do to control it.

Is this not a contradiction? Is life different from thoughts containing ‘I’ or thoughts with control ideas? Are these thoughts not life also? Are these thoughts not also coming up without any control independent of the content of the thoughts ? Can ‘you’ control thoughts? Can ‘you’ control the content of thoughts? Who made this thoughts? Does the brain needs someone to think thoughts?


Yes, indeed, that's correct! Life includes the "I"- thoughts!!! Hey, I've been looking into exactly that today! =) Something is itching here... I started to think "I CAN control my thoughts. I'm now gonna think horse, ball and tree four times each: horse, horse, horse... etc..." Creating a sense of control. But I asked "Where did the choice of horse - ball - tree come from? Did you control that? And where did 'four times' come from?" And what are you gonna come up with next time - do you know? It became obvious that they just came, and the sense of having control was a post-hoc conclusion. The mind is very child-like, isn't it? =) Having to test to prove itself... hahaha! It's cute! I had a glimpse of how it's sort of a back-movement... seeing that also this is included, backing a step, also this is included... All the trying to change thought patterns with different methods is also included, whether successful or not. Succeeding giving a false sense of control. Failing creating a victim story. "I can change a negative thought to a positive thought by will." Even the sense of having a will is included in Life happening. Do I know what I want before I want it? Do I know what I want next? Hahahaha! Wanting something also just happens. That's the design of it. That's how Life plays.

In meditation I heard a voice "There is no Cinnamon" and a vision of standing inside the onion at the empty center - looking at all the layers around, and zooming in on the layers, they were very transparent... The molecules of the onion being separate, non-connected pieces of information sailing around this empty core - judgments from others, info from past events etc. Actually not even connected to eachother. No "this happened because of that"... Just lying there like dead pieces. It's like two things happening, the illusion that they are dependent of each other creates a chain, a story. makes the layers seem thick and solid. The illusion that they are all about an I in the center makes the shape of the onion. Like a gravity towards the "I" working to keep them together. Otherwise they'd be what they are... pieces of information sailing in space.

It's not clear yet. And the itching is very, very similar to what happened before, so I really have to work hard to push out all memories storming back to me and dismiss them as non-valid memories not to distort this process of freshly looking. Phew. But things are moving, I can feel it. I just have to focus really closely on one thing at a time. Bedtime now. I'll try your exercise tomorrow.

PS: Once this is seen it’s gone forever, like the day you heard that Santa Claus was not real but a nice story. Did you ever believed again in Santa Claus?

Just because you or your friends here at LU haven't experienced it, it doesn't mean it can't happen! You don't wanna know what it's like to go back believing in Santa Claus again!!!! It's absolutely absurd, I can assure you! Books have been written about it! (Adyashanti's "The end of your world") ;-) Mooji finally threw out one of his disciples who got addicted to coming to him, going through the gate again and again, cause it was such a hoot to realize the illusion of I!

User avatar
Patrick
Posts: 803
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2012 10:29 am
Location: Belgium

Re: Open invitation, jump in and start the dialogue

Postby Patrick » Thu Mar 01, 2012 6:37 pm

Yes, things are moving.
Walls are crumbling down.

Keep looking at your assumptions, keep questioning them, keep digging.

Is there anything trying to protect 'you' ? If so, what?

User avatar
Cinnamon
Posts: 33
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 3:46 pm

Re: Open invitation, jump in and start the dialogue

Postby Cinnamon » Fri Mar 02, 2012 11:03 am

I have tried to do the spoon thing... I can't. I'm too aware that there's an exercise and that there is in fact no spoon. Can't go into fooling myself that there's anything real there.

It's fluctuating right now... I sit down or take a walk, just being with inquriy- it becomes slowly clearer. Body rises to cook food and "swosh" I'm back to habitual thinking, not even noticing I'm back to habitual thinking and doing until a "ding" comes and there's looking again. I see the "zoombie" has been acting again, like a marionette ruled by patterns and reactions and wants and needs. Will such periods of total "unawareness" continue to come also after passing through the gate or is that which will disappear? Please give a hint about that, cause whenever that happens I take it as a "proof" there has been no stable realizations at all having any imprint on daily life living.

There's also a very double sense; on one hand having this underlying joy, lots more smiling, hilarious buddha laughs when reading your questions or other's questions in other topics here at LU as if the answer is known. On the other hand the good old "I"-feeling, the commenting voice, feeling stupid, a sense of "nothing is happening" - why the hell is there such laughing? The victim voice: "I don't have any clarity anyway"... As if there's clarity laughing on it's own, fully knowing and taking in the humour of the situation, and the audience is wondering what the heck is going on, not getting the plot of this strange play...

Will the mind always hang in there as the "stupid" one, not at all getting what's going on? Like a child who has lost the candy. I'm able to see mind functioning, but it will never ever be able to see reality.

It's a little aside from your question, but I saw yesterday that the mind thinks it is its duty to take care of the body. If it thinks "I have to remove that pain" it thinks it's actually helping the body remove the pain. I also noticed - the stronger the pain, the more I-identification. A small sensation is easy to just sense and BE with as it is. Just a sensation happening in the body and the body is not even "me". But the stronger the pain, the more "I"-involvement, more seriousity, more necessity to get rid of it and stress bubbling up and boy, now it's about MY body and MY pain! When I was looking into this, I met an anorexia on the street. I saw how crazy it can get, how believing our thoughts indeed can destroy the body.

Is there anything trying to protect 'you' ? If so, what?

Hm. Yes, there is a feeling that something wants it to stay in this comfort zone. Drop it a little, float around, let the body live its life, but don't drop it all the way... keep it safe. It's enough to have those glimpses of not being in control, but, let's have it stay with that. A hesitation. An imagined protector, a gate keeper... fear. Or habitual resistance to change. Don't know.


Return to “ARCHIVES”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests