How to find peace that passeth all understanding

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Chitanand
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How to find peace that passeth all understanding

Postby Chitanand » Fri Oct 07, 2016 11:18 am

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?:
I just saw the interview of Ilona and Elena on batgap.com and got inspired to get the book and search your website, too. It seems you are doing a very nice work here and i would like to participate in it and broaden and/or investigate my own view on things. I still look for more liberation, altough sometimes i can see already, that it would be better to let that go, too.
The fear of suffering and resistance to experience negative emotions and out of that a great striving to become better and improve seem to be the biggest obstacles for just being in peace in the present moment. And doubts about what to do about it, sometimes i can see that this are just more thoughts but most of the time unfortunatly i am on automatic believing in a separate self.

What are you looking for? What do you expect from this?:
Liberation from attetchment to my thoughts and thereby reaching peace. I would like VERY much to dive very deeply into stillness.
I guess that there are not so much other desires left. It might be that i try to solve other problems like that, f.e. feelings of inadequathy, fears, loneliness...

What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry?:
I began spiritual life when i met Amma (Mata Amritanandamayi) 1991 in India, later staying altogether maybe 12 years in her Ashram. Also i got involved with tibetan Buddhism, staying 6,5 years in a monastery in France. Being mainly interested in the Dzogchen and Mahamudra Techings, i did even a traditional 3-year-retreat there.
Being not happy with the results of all that i approached more western viewpoints, like healing and the western satsang movement.
I am very grateful to Amma for a very deep inspiration for the spiritual path, for having strong experiences with her- maybe a Kundalini awakening- which showed me the relative meaninglessness of striving for other aims than Self knowledge. Buddhism gave me a good rational understanding of the spiritual path, which helped me to overcome some fears i had because of some experiences which seemed to be overwhelming.
In Ramana Maharshis Cave in Tiru i had my first experience of stillness, which i have now more and more often for short times.
The last two years i tried to live a normal life with a job and a partner, but this is not so easy after having lived a completely different live for the past 25 years...
I can see now that mostly i was attached to experiences and concepts and with all this searching trying to go out of suffering, which did not happen.
What happened was getting some clarity about how i and things work, gradually letting go and relax a bit.

How ready are you to question your beliefs about who you are and see the truth no matter what?: 11

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Xain
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Re: How to find peace that passeth all understanding

Postby Xain » Fri Oct 07, 2016 1:31 pm

Hi Chitanand

Welcome to the LU Forum.
Do you have a preferred name I can call you, or is Chitanand ok?
I still look for more liberation, although sometimes i can see already, that it would be better to let that go, too.
I understand and yes, this is a wise consideration for the most-part.

It should be considered that freedom/liberation is here and now, not some future goal.
In terms of the guidance at LU, we guide you to realise that there is no inherent self, no real 'I'. None now, none in the past and none in the future.
All along it has been the result of self-referencing thoughts and beliefs.

To suggest 'I am looking for more liberation' is to have the belief in a separate self that attains things, and will attain more in the future.
Of course, until 'no self' is realised, it is OK to talk about such things and consider them - But if these expectations are not put aside, they will hamper the realisation or even prevent it altogether.
I will request that you put ALL expectations aside for the guidance . . . other than one - To realise there is no real separate self.
The fear of suffering and resistance to experience negative emotions and out of that a great striving to become better and improve seem to be the biggest obstacles for just being in peace in the present moment. And doubts about what to do about it, sometimes i can see that this are just more thoughts but most of the time unfortunatly i am on automatic believing in a separate self.
I understand. What you say makes sense.
Here perhaps is another expectation, though - The expectation that automatic thoughts will stop.
Liberation from attatchment to my thoughts and thereby reaching peace. I would like VERY much to dive very deeply into stillness
It will be realised that any 'I' thought does not point to anything real. It will be realised that the entire thought process is not personal - There is no seperate self 'thinking' - It will be realised that there is no-one to dive into stillness, or to be in or out of any particular state or experience.
Being mainly interested in the Dzogchen and Mahamudra Techings, i did even a traditional 3-year-retreat there.
Good. I have no formal buddhist background but the emptiness teachings and the ten fetter model make complete sense to me, and I am happy to talk with you in those terms if that will help.
In Ramana Maharshis Cave in Tiru i had my first experience of stillness, which i have now more and more often for short times.
It is important for me to stress that this guidance is not to attain any particular state or experience, either temporary or permanent.
It is to realise that there is no inherent self to be in any state; That there is no 'real' self experiencing at any time.

Feel free to let me know what your opinions to what I have written.
I am happy to go through the guiding process with you if you wish.
Please throw any further questions you have about the process my way, and I'll try to clear things up for you.

As for expectations, please ensure you read the FAQ section on 'Liberation Unleashed is not' - The link here:
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/

Xain ♥

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Chitanand
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Re: How to find peace that passeth all understanding

Postby Chitanand » Fri Oct 07, 2016 9:21 pm

Dear Xain,

Thank you very much for your reply and all the time you take for that! Thats really nice and kind from you!

I am with you in all you are saying, seeing more then until now how my expactations hinder me in clearly seeing what is happening now.
I will surely put them aside for the investigation.
To suggest 'I am looking for more liberation' is to have the belief in a separate self that attains things, and will attain more in the future.
I think I have a quite good intellectual understanding about the realization of no self, so when I say Iam looking for more liberation I know that it does not mean to attain something for myself in the future.
But still I think realization of no self should express itself in dayli life as a proof that it is more than an intellectual understanding or even just a new concept one clings to. Dont you think this realization will change the way you experience things, leading to more peace, feelings of connection, less self made suffering?

But I understand that all expactations are in the way of seeing clearly and clouding our perception and of course I can put them aside for some time.

We are preparing now for a weekend trip, so my time is limited today and probably I will not be able to answer until monday, but next week I have a lot of time and hope we will continue and see things more clearly as they truly are ( hoping is just happening now without me doing anything...)

I can see clearly that I am not making my thouhts (otherwise I would change at least 98% of them, actually I have tried that the last 25 years, curiously inspite seeing in my first meditation that my thoughts are not produced by me, I remember this very clearly.
Still I think realization of no self should lead via a change in perception also to a change in memory and thoughts or even more important maybe to less attetchment to thoughts or by feeling more at home with everything to more relaxation which leads in my experience also to less thoughts.
I again write about my expactations, but I just want you to understand where I am staying and how I function.

When my mind is without thoughts sometimes, I can see clearly that there is no I- that this I is just there if I cling to repective thoughts, just out of habit. But in dayli life there is not much change coming out of that- I am often very tensed, frustrated, angry or afraid because I still cling strongly to a feeling of me being separate from everything around.

Ok, enough for today, see you soon!
Chitanand

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Xain
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Re: How to find peace that passeth all understanding

Postby Xain » Sat Oct 08, 2016 1:05 pm

I am with you in all you are saying, seeing more then until now how my expactations hinder me in clearly seeing what is happening now.
I will surely put them aside for the investigation.
Good. It is important.
All expectations will have an 'I' component - 'I will live in peace', 'I will experience a new way of living', 'I will not suffer again'.
All that my guidance is about here is to realise that there is no real 'I' - It is an illusion.
What use is an expectation to an illusion?

Of course, if you are 'a seeker' and wish to realise what this guidance is about then of course, peace will result from the realisation. You will no-longer be a seeker.
But still I think realization of no self should express itself in dayly life as a proof
Your question assumes there is a person going through 'daily life' that will change from one state to another state.
This is an expectation of the process.
Dont you think this realization will change the way you experience things, leading to more peace, feelings of connection, less self made suffering?
No.
Sorry to be blunt but all these things are expectations for a 'real' self.
This guidance is to show that there is no 'real' self. That's all.
I am often very tensed, frustrated, angry or afraid because I still cling strongly to a feeling of me being separate from everything around.
Sure - I understand.
During these times there is no inherent self either.
It will be realised through my guidance that if these things show-up, there is still no self there feeling, being angry etc
Still I think realization of no self should lead via a change in perception also to a change in memory and thoughts or even more important maybe to less attatchment to thoughts or by feeling more at home with everything to more relaxation which leads in my experience also to less thoughts.
I again write about my expectations, but I just want you to understand where I am staying and how I function.
Sure. But I'm not intending to give you false hopes here.
I'm simply telling what is possible through my guidance. That is only one thing - To realise there is no separate self.

It may be that this guidance is not what you seek right now. (And there is no problem with that, if that is the case).
If you cannot drop these expectations, I cannot guide you (or rather, my guidance would be a waste of your time because what you are wanting, I cannot provide).

There are many other avenues that can be used to deal with your specific expectations. My guidance is not one of them, unfortunately.
It would disingenuous of me to tell you that it is.

My guidance is only to realise that there is no separate self, no 'I'. That's all.

Please fully read the FAQ as I mentioned previously.

Xain ♥

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Chitanand
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Re: How to find peace that passeth all understanding

Postby Chitanand » Mon Oct 10, 2016 12:53 pm

Yes, I will put aside all expactations from now on.

[quoteI am often very tensed, frustrated, angry or afraid because I still cling strongly to a feeling of me being separate from everything around.

Sure - I understand.
During these times there is no inherent self either.
It will be realised through my guidance that if these things show-up, there is still no self there feeling, being angry etc
][/quote]

I understand to a certain degree that there is no real self there even when you are angry, on the other hand there is no realisation of an absence of self, otherwise in my opinion there would be no reason to defend a self by being angry.
Dont you think this realization will change the way you experience things, leading to more peace, feelings of connection, less self made suffering?

No.
Sorry to be blunt but all these things are expectations for a 'real' self.
Also here I dont speak about my expactations, but more about my conviction, that the realization of no self is not expressing itself in a behavior which shows that one clings very much to a separate self.

But I can see, even this intellectual understanding is in a way an expactation, ok- I will set it aside for the investigation.

Yes, I just read the FAQ again, I can see relly more now, how much expactations I have and how this conditions my thinking and experience.

So, how do we do the investigation? Are you asking Questions or do I have to do anything?

See you soon!

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Xain
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Re: How to find peace that passeth all understanding

Postby Xain » Tue Oct 11, 2016 4:56 am

I understand to a certain degree that there is no real self there even when you are angry, on the other hand there is no realisation of an absence of self, otherwise in my opinion there would be no reason to defend a self by being angry.
Sorry, I don't understand what you mean.

Xain ♥

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Chitanand
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Re: How to find peace that passeth all understanding

Postby Chitanand » Tue Oct 11, 2016 11:12 am

Having done some self inquiry already following the buddhist and advaita teachings, i have a certain conviction that there is no self really, it is just there when you cling habitually to thoughts which seem to imply that there is one. Ok, even then there is no self, its just an illusion. I can see that, but only for short moments i get counscious of this fact, most of the time i am not counscious about it and in dayli life i find myself often driven by negative emotions which in my opinion are only brought about by a strong clinging to a separate self. Mostly maybe by being frustrated because i canot achieve what i want on my spiritual path, that means by my expactations.
Still this emotions seem to be deeply ingrained in the body and do not go away by intellectual convictions. Thatswhy also i did the self inquiry not very sincerely until now, having no real trust in an intellectual approach which seemed just like only adding new thoughts to the one i already had.
The most clearly i can see that there is no self is when there are no thoughts in the mind, which happens now more and more often spontanously during the day or in meditation for a short time, when there is only presence and a being in the moment just with what is there.

Also being strongly introverted and having taken the spiritual search quite sincerely or at least being not very interested in anything else for 25 years- i can see now or since a few years already, that there is no real self having control about anything- since i tried pretty much to control without any success...

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Chitanand
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Re: How to find peace that passeth all understanding

Postby Chitanand » Tue Oct 11, 2016 11:54 am

Ps. Perhaps we use the term realization of no self differently: i use it for a more embodied understanding, diferentiating between experience and realization: experience meaning something short lived whereas realization meaning something is there pretty all the time. In this sense a realization of no self would imply that suffering which is produced through a belief in a self would not be created anymore.
I guess you would call this just another expactation and that is true...

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Chitanand
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Re: How to find peace that passeth all understanding

Postby Chitanand » Wed Oct 12, 2016 10:09 am

Our dialogue has shown me how much my life is conditioned by expectations, i am grateful for that! Especially expectations regarding my spiritual practice , thinking to have to achieve results by doing something, but also about other people, expecting them to behave differently, more according to my thoughts. Thats already a nice outcome of our conversation, thank you!

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Xain
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Re: How to find peace that passeth all understanding

Postby Xain » Wed Oct 12, 2016 5:23 pm

Having done some self inquiry already following the buddhist and advaita teachings, i have a certain conviction that there is no self really, it is just there when you cling habitually to thoughts which seem to imply that there is one. Ok, even then there is no self, its just an illusion. I can see that, but only for short moments i get counscious of this fact, most of the time i am not counscious about it and in dayli life i find myself often driven by negative emotions which in my opinion are only brought about by a strong clinging to a separate self. Mostly maybe by being frustrated because i canot achieve what i want on my spiritual path, that means by my expactations.
Thank you for elaborating.
You seem to have some understanding of this path.

When I offer you 'there is no 'real' self suffering', it wasn't as a point of debate or argument - More as what will be realised by the guidance here.
The guidance here is to show that there has never been a 'real' separate self. There isn't one here now, there wasn't one yesterday and there won't be one tomorrow. There is no real self to achieve anything.
Within your description, you are suggesting that 'sometimes I am conscious of this fact' - And of course, I understand your meaning.
However, I still have to make you fully understand that this guidance is for a realisaton that there is never a 'real' self conscious of anything. Temporarily or permanently.

There is nothing for 'YOU' to get here. In fact, you could say that the only thing from the guidance is that something will be lost.
The belief that there ever was or will be a real separate 'you'.
The belief that there was ever a real separate 'you' on any path or doing spiritual practise.
In this sense a realization of no self would imply that suffering which is produced through a belief in a self would not be created anymore.
No.
Again, please forgive my harshness but that is not what is being offered here.
Within what you are saying is the belief that there is someone here right now (a separate self, usually referred to as 'I') who is suffering through their own specific beliefs; And that after my guidance, there will still be a separate self, but one that will no-longer suffer.
This is not about changing or stopping thoughts. Nor is it about 'beliefs', although beliefs will be addressed in the guidance.

My guidance is to show that there is no 'real' self, no 'I'. Ever. That's all.
Holding on to a belief that there is someone here to be improved, to stop suffering or to 'get' some special thing will either hamper this investigation or prevent the realisation entirely.

The may be a reduction in suffering as a by-product of this realisation which we could talk of in a general sense, but clinging to this as an expectation of the process is not going to work. It is just going to hamper or prevent things entirely.
Our dialogue has shown me how much my life is conditioned by expectations, i am grateful for that! Especially expectations regarding my spiritual practice , thinking to have to achieve results by doing something, but also about other people, expecting them to behave differently, more according to my thoughts. Thats already a nice outcome of our conversation, thank you!
Thank you.

At this stage, I am still unsure if you are ready for the guidance, or even if it is what you really want.
Amassing knowledge is of only limited benefit (and comes with the idea that there is someone 'getting new beliefs' / someone being improved').
The guidance is to show that this, too is a flawed idea.

Xain ♥

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Chitanand
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Re: How to find peace that passeth all understanding

Postby Chitanand » Wed Oct 12, 2016 10:14 pm

Hi Xain,

i am fully with you in everything you are saying.
This afternoon i felt a great relief thinking how it would be if i would be satisfied with just this realization of no self, stopping al further searching and efforting. That would be perhaps really a big change for the better.
However, I still have to make you fully understand that this guidance is for a realisaton that there is never a 'real' self conscious of anything. Temporarily or permanently.

There is nothing for 'YOU' to get here. In fact, you could say that the only thing from the guidance is that something will be lost.
The belief that there ever was or will be a real separate 'you'.
The belief that there was ever a real separate 'you' on any path or doing spiritual practise.
I know this since a long time, having got really a lot of good dharma teachings for many years.
Still i find myself behaving in ways that show a lot of clingimg to a seperate self.
Sometimes i can see it also clearly that there is no self, but more often i find myself doing things to improve my self.
Thatswhy i look for guidance- to be able to see it more clearly or ones and for all.

Why should i be not ready for guidance?

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Xain
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Re: How to find peace that passeth all understanding

Postby Xain » Thu Oct 13, 2016 8:47 am

Hi Chitanand

Ok, if you are still interested then I am happy to continue.

Just a few points before we set sail.

1) Try to post at least once per day - If you know you cannot do this, just message me beforehand to say you won't be able to reply.
I'll do the same. This is to develop a 'momentum' in the guidance and help to focus.
2) Please put all expectations aside other than the one thing I mention.
3) Please put all spiritual, religious, non-dual and scientific ideas aside and approach this entire thing from very simple basic beliefs.
4) Please be totally honest with me (and yourself) about what you feel is true, and answer from what is clear to you.
5) Please do not answer from 'what you've been told is the correct answer' or 'what you feel I want to here' - We will be examining your beliefs and your experience in the immediate moment (what can be found).

Ready to set sail?

Xain ♥

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Chitanand
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Re: How to find peace that passeth all understanding

Postby Chitanand » Thu Oct 13, 2016 11:20 am

Dear Xain,

i am very ready! Thanks a lot for taking time for this!
Since i have some more time right now than usual, i would be happy to write more often than ones a day. As is conveniant for you.

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Xain
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Re: How to find peace that passeth all understanding

Postby Xain » Thu Oct 13, 2016 1:30 pm

Ok, let's begin very simply.

Close your eyes.
What can you see?

Rather than giving a snap answer, actually do the exercise - Close your eyes - Consider the question.
What is seen? What appears in vision?

Xain ♥

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Chitanand
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Re: How to find peace that passeth all understanding

Postby Chitanand » Thu Oct 13, 2016 1:42 pm

There is seen something i would call darkness or no things are seen.


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