freedom

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Pip2
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freedom

Postby Pip2 » Tue Aug 30, 2016 2:05 am

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?:
I went on youtube and found this fellow Jackson Petersen talking about Dzogchen. That particular style, if that's the right word seemed to fit with my own thing in many aspects ...sort of do nothing, sit without intent, etc. He kept referring to this constant sense of knowing and clear awareness and I resonated with what he was saying so I titled the talk "Dzogchen and sudden Illumination" it all went quite well, the talk that is but in reality Dzogchen wasn't really what I was doing it was just a way of explaining to some extent, my own practice. So right at the end of one of Jackson"s clips on youtube he mentioned Liberation unleashed and I jotted down the name on a notepad and subsequently forgot all about it. ...a couple of months later, after seeing the name LU on the notepad everyday <I did a google and VIOLA!!!

What are you looking for? What do you expect from this?:
Frankly I'm not looking for anything . The dialogues Iv'e read in Gateless Gatecrashers and other Pdf "s have confirmed what I appear to have been through and am going through, If that's a way of putting it, I suppose a kind of confirmation around that would be good... the language in Liberation unleashed like "falling" Anatta,there's no one there etc and reading the books is very joyful , although I am pretty sure there's a feeling about after care I think... well some days I think that.. sort of support, I don't quite know how to put it and I'm hoping you get my drift.

What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry?:
I can add a lot of detail to the first question if you like but that"s a big story that started when I was very young, barely 12 or 13 and lead me to Asia India at the time I finished school. Lots of gurus ,well 3 or 4, lots of sitting, J Krishnamurti, Zen and Theravada/Mahayana teachings and teachers, Kriya yoga, TaiJi, martial arts .The road is long like the song says and I've had some wonderfully beautiful experiences and insights along the way, but nothing compares to the joy of just being , free of the encumbrance of self, letting it all just unfold. You have a wonderful website thank you all for putting it up in the way you have.

How ready are you to question your beliefs about who you are and see the truth no matter what?: 11

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Sarah7
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Re: freedom

Postby Sarah7 » Thu Sep 01, 2016 11:32 am

Hey Pip
Im Sarah and Id be happy to speak with you!
So you have looked around our site? You know what we do here?

You are just wanting a confirmation then? Nothing else?
Hugs Sarah xxx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

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Pip2
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Re: freedom

Postby Pip2 » Fri Sep 02, 2016 3:03 am

Hey Sarah, Thanks for responding,I guess what's happening is a disassembling of former patterns or ways of thinking,it's kinda hard to put into words....sort of a psychological shift around reactions that I might have had before what I know is this realization that you allude to, not to a better or preferred pattern or reaction....actually it's a bit scary sometimes ,the emptiness that is,nor is it some vague neutrality , it's a confident knowing that 'things " are just as they are.
AS I mentioned in the registration form I've had many beautiful and insightful experiences on the mat especially, but this is ........ those experiences aren't sought after anymore, there isn't a word for what is happening except in the language of L U ; even the daily sitting, which I still do, has moved from the Shikantaza ,Dzogchen type practice that Ive been doing for sometime, into a strange unsettling rumble- in- the- jungle of the mind which discombobulates nearly everything I thought I was into .
I live in this ashram in Fremantle where the practice is mostly non-dual Advaita or a version of that . There is lots of hindu chanting and ceremony, ritual and discussion of the teachings of Swami Venkateshananda , I find it difficult to participate in most of this stuff and feel a deep and heartfelt sense of compassion for what I choose to call most everyone's Mayavadi views. I work as the cook here so I tend to stay out of the protracted diatribe of the residents and Swamis as much as possible and am constantly having to bite my tongue when and if I go to any of the many discussion groups but mostly I just laugh not at them or what there saying ...it just seems really funny getting that caught up in views and opinions, yet before the Fall ,if I can use that term, I was one of the main protagonists and supporters of the whole circus which is rather odd in
anyone's language.
So Sarah I wanted to ask about meditation in regard to LU, is there a direction for me with this? Maybe I could follow along more instinctually what are your impressions around this.
Thank you for taking the time for this. a big big hug and much love Aloka or pip2 whatever

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Sarah7
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Re: freedom

Postby Sarah7 » Fri Sep 02, 2016 8:24 am

Hi Aloka!
OK - you may have to pick and choose some of the below - but we have to put in something like this.

Then I will have a little dig around to see where you are and what if anything still needs clearing out - is that OK?

House keeping first:
In general, I will ask questions and you look deeply and respond with 100% honesty.

Responses require simple, uncontrived honest looking. There are no wrong or right answers.

Responses are best from direct experience (the physical evidence of seeing, hearing, touching, tasting, and smelling, prior to the story or explanation about them). Long-winded, analytical and philosophical or stream of consciousness answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. Just listen very closely to the answers that arise in you, and answer to the very best of your ability at that time. Read the article at for more help on distinguishing what is direct experience: http://liberationunleashed.com/resource ... xperience/

Please learn to use the quote function, see for instructions: http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660

Finally, here's a couple of helpful points:
1) You can press 'subscribe to this topic' in the blue bar at the bottom of this page and receive a notification email every time I post here.

2) The site has a nasty habit of logging you out while you write a reply, which can mean you lose what you have written. One way to avoid this is to write elsewhere, then just paste the message into the 'reply' window when you're ready to send? Ok.

So from where you are now can you answer the below.

How do you think, feel or experience the 'self', 'I' or ‘me’'?

For instance does it feel like its in the centre or middle of experience, is it solid or thick, does it feel fixed or permanent, is it inside the body or part of the body, does it change, does it feel uniquely different and separate, does it become more or less solid or obvious depending on experience, does it have colour or shape or texture, is it small or large, does this self own the body or the thoughts and feelings it experiences?

Is it made up of thoughts and feelings, sensations, emotions, likes and dislikes, opinions, memories and experiences, perceptions, character and personality, does this self decide, chose, act, do and control? Anything else? Is there a time when the self is not experienced?

Now have a really good look and tell me where does the 'self' that you conceive yourself to be reside? Is it in the body as a whole, part of the body or somewhere else? Can you pinpoint an exact reference point? Can it be found, at all?

Can anything exist outside the present moment? Can you find anything that does?

In your direct experience, is there anything permanent right now?
Hugs Sarah xxx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

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Pip2
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Re: freedom

Postby Pip2 » Fri Sep 02, 2016 12:37 pm

[

Hello Sarah, I'm fooling around with the quote thing and the other things you requested in the house keeping stuff so please excuse the fragmented typo errors.
quote]How do you think, feel or experience the 'self', 'I' or ‘me’'?
If feelings can be described as pleasant ,unpleasant, or neutral then honestly the self is experienced as none of these feelings. If emotions are things like happiness, , love, anger, hatred, jealousy etc then yes those emotions are happening and are known as they are occurring,sometimes without any particular label, they appear to be just happening there's just a knowing of sadness or happiness......it's very different to before, like I have this problem with one of my eyes ,a burst blood vessel in one eye which causes slightly blurred vision ....normally , before I'd be very anxious about this and while I'm not obsessed with health issues naturally one doesn't want a whole lot of preoccupation with that ...but I handle the whole thing entirely differently in the sense that there's a need for attention to fix it but no real stress about it, it's simply happening and that's that.
I can only describe what was for me when I remember what it was I used to be ... that sounds crazy but it's true. Sarah, the questions being asked about where I identify my self frankly ,I'd love to give something I could latch onto ,I'm not depressed or anything like that , and if I am then I'll be depressed, for the life of me I can't find Aloka in it all and that's a blessed release i can assure you, being me has caused me no end of crap and even if me pops up from time to time then I'll wonder about that for a while I suppose.
A while ago I did a lot of stuff around self acceptance, liking yourself etc.,It was all bullshit and if recalcitrance is part of some mindset I have ,which i doubt is true, then I like myself without me in the equation a lot more than all the outcome of that therapy. I'm not trying to be correct or say anything that proves even that Iv'e "fallen" there is something that celebrates the events leading to this awakening ...it's fantastic and if I could shower you and all those who travel with you with blessed blessed love I would do that over and over.... because I can. Aloka

PS I can't work out the submit thing , could you email a response until I get it together

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Sarah7
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Re: freedom

Postby Sarah7 » Sat Sep 03, 2016 9:00 am

Hi Aloka!
Under my post you will find a reply button. Press that. An empty box will appear which you can write in. If you wish to quote me - scroll down, find the bit you want to quote, highlight it, scroll up to the top of THAT box and there in the top right hand corner is a button with " on it. Press that and my quote will appear in your reply box. Hope that makes sense?

So have you been able to find, a ‘self’ that is the ‘experiencer’?
Or a self that is the doer, or can control what happens?
Or a self that ‘makes’ decisions?
Or a self who ‘does the thinking’?
Hugs Sarah xxx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

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Pip2
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Re: freedom

Postby Pip2 » Sat Sep 03, 2016 3:17 pm

Hey Sarah, emphatically no to all those inquiries.there's nothing that wants to control , no thinker except for routine tasks around things like a shopping list or a recipe or remembering how a piece of music goes ...the notes I mean ...I play classic guitar...you know the brain gets switched on like a tv thinking does the task and seems to go back into some kind of emptiness or repose when that's done Sometimes I purposely try to sustain some emotional event just to see what will happen but in no time it's like i've forgotten the whole thing. I'm not devoid of feelings they simply happen and pass away , nor am I some kind of automaton with robotic responses I can love deeply and I'm freed up enough to just let it be .
Love Aloka

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Sarah7
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Re: freedom

Postby Sarah7 » Sun Sep 04, 2016 1:44 pm

Hi Aloka
Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations?
Are the five body senses made to arise or experienced by this ‘self’?
Is any separation felt?
Hugs Sarah xxx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

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Pip2
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Re: freedom

Postby Pip2 » Sun Sep 04, 2016 2:44 pm

Hey Sarah, Is the body just another thought label for sensations... well if it is then it is, so what,if it isn't then that may be a realization in itself but what difference does that make if there's nobody there anyway.Realization is experienced only in the mind so have a party about it if you want and then get on with being.
Are the five body senses made to arise or {are they} experienced by this self, Perhaps there are six if you count mentation or the mind as a sense ... yes they are "experienced" if you identify them with an abiding entity called self or me. Some sensible part of me wants to say that in another way, something like ,the senses are co-dependently arisen and subsequently experienced by the self because I believe i am a self , the duality sustains itself like a chemical reaction mutually dependent on the outcome ...wow did I say that maybe I read it somewhere. not being me has lots of cool advantages hey!!!
Is any separation felt ?.. Let's not be too verbose about it ...if you know there's no one home why knock on the door.? separation implies something to be separate from . This is fun Sarah your really helping affirm the big nothing.
Very Grateful lots of love Aloka

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Sarah7
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Re: freedom

Postby Sarah7 » Mon Sep 05, 2016 7:46 am

Hi Aloka
Want to pause here for a second to explore these two points a bit more if that's ok?

Got a little exercise for you!
Gaze at an object. Turn up that inner magnifying glass to observe what's happening in direct experience. In seeing, what is being experienced? What is happening when "seeing" is happening? What is doing the seeing? What is being seen? What does "seeing" consists of? Describe the actual, direct experience of seeing. Do you first perceive the object using some other sense, and then see it later? Can you find a dividing line between the object and the seeing of it? Or are the object and the seeing of it inseparable? Is there an entity called "you" experiencing the seeing? Can you find a dividing line between "you" and seeing? Is it an accurate description of direct experience? Are there really three entities there in direct experience, an "I" and seer and an object? Or is there only seeing? What do you see about the thought, "I'm seeing that object"?

Try it with various sights e.g. out of the window at a distant view. See if you can find a way to separate the object from the seeing and the seeing from the seer. Where does one start and the other end? How many senses are there here - 1 or more?
Hugs Sarah xxx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

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Pip2
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Re: freedom

Postby Pip2 » Tue Sep 06, 2016 1:49 pm

Hey Sarah, If this exercise is done with intent, focus etc then there is simply seeing, no me and not even an object seen as such, unless the object needs recognition for some practical reason. I have done this exercise spontaneously for years, sometimes I look at the light spaces between the leaves and branches of trees instead of the tree itself, the mind goes sort of blank, peaceful sort of in repose.
Where are we going with this ? I mean if there's any sensory input or any other intervention in just seeing then there's probably a reason and that just has its place in what is as well. There's a kind of stipulation in the ashram where I live that we all attend the morning meditation session ,that's ok . For me this means I just sit and let everything just happen ,.As I mentioned in the registration form there's been this developing state ,I guess you'd call it, where longer and longer periods of time elapse with no mental activity around seeing hearing etc both on and off the mat. Jackson Petersen explains this as Knowing, and as a description it fits for me. The mind is alert, quite keenly so,and there is no dullness or trance like condition apparent.Frankly the former desire to have a regular sitting practice for which I reserved "who Am I" or passive breath awareness as a practice doesn't have any impetus, any more, by that I mean it all seems a bit neurotic or self obsessed and even stupid . I don't want to be the observer of anything either, the witness or the know-er it simply doesn't apply I mean why when there's no one there except this fantasy around self identity that people attach to who they think they are. As there doesn't appear to be any 1st,2nd or 3rd party available in seeing touching etc is there really and separation from others as well or are they just aspects of mind with names like Bob Mary and Alice etc. It is as the Buddha said in the seen just the seen in the heard just the heard can't remember the guy who asked the question was it Bhaliya or some one.
So the morning meditation session which was once a pleasant enough pastime has become ... don't quite know the word.....redundant I guess I mean nothing against the practice it's the constraint around having to in a particular time frame ...I dunno??? I've lost the focus around so called spiritual practice per se and would much rather help people or engage in conversation around non-self and the true meaning of liberation; it feels child like to be in this place or nondiscriminatory awareness but have this ...wisdom or something as well... yes that's it ,more and more childlike innocent motiveless and strangely happy a lot even laughing more than ever especially at how I used to be .
Don't know if this answers your questions maybe not ask me something else ......there's no me in the seeing thing unless I want to be attached to the seen for some reason or other. No witness or observer that I can find if i look as an exercise, the mind can get involved in all sorts of stories around seeing I just see that as the mind getting involved in all sorts of stories. Of course as an exercise I can separate the object from the seeing and the seeing from the seer but there's a knowing that's happening that's all I can say this is going round and round what's happening is like you guys say life is just happening why do I have to get involved in working out ifs buts and maybes. Blessings Aloka

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Sarah7
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Re: freedom

Postby Sarah7 » Tue Sep 06, 2016 2:55 pm

Hey Aloka
I suppose a kind of confirmation around that would be good...
Do you have anymore questions? Or are you clear you have seen through the illusion of self?
Im going to private message you too. OK.
Hugs Sarah xxx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

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Pip2
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Re: freedom

Postby Pip2 » Wed Sep 07, 2016 1:24 am

THANK YOU Sarah I'm quite clear about seeing through the illusion of self and my only question is how do I help others along with this, Read some of your pdf Called Direct Pointing and got a few tips and it would be really good to be more involved. I look forward to hearing from you through my email Thank you for your time and patience. This has been a truly wonderful awakening Love Aloka

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Sarah7
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Re: freedom

Postby Sarah7 » Wed Sep 07, 2016 6:40 am

Morning Alloa
So - just to Sum up can you answer these in as much detail as you feel is necessary. Theres no rush! :) and I'll pm you again soon about the helping thing. Ok!

Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.
How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.
Anything to add?
Hugs Sarah xxx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

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Pip2
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Re: freedom

Postby Pip2 » Sat Sep 10, 2016 6:28 am

[quote[*]][/Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?quote]
When looking is happening no entity called self can be found If one were to look behind from were one stands there is a clear knowing that before the "fall"this illusion was evident and active in the sense that experience of any kind was attached to this nefarious and addictive entity called me ...and it all seems quite ...well funny and odd now.
[quote][/quote] Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
The Illusion of self appears as a peculiar action in the mind that attaches with apparent ease ,impercievably to feelings and perceptions and particularly to the sustaining of unpleasant mostly emotional experiences . This action by identification causes for want of a better word, suffering. Past emotional experiences for the thing I called ' me 'caused no end of distress psychologically and eventually manifesting physically as well in the form of various illnesses which "i" would again attach to my sense of self and so on ,caught in and endless circle game with the ego shading all perceptions with memory and subsequent pain.
One day I thought to myself "All things...thoughts feelings perceptions mental formations and consciousness itself ,are born or created in the mind ,sustained by the mind and are diminished or pass away in the mind just like if your creating music which is why Used the terms sustained and diminished{they apply to a particular chordal structure on the guitar].
Then I thought "Why do I abide in the things of the mind, why am I living this way ..through my mind."
Things went awfully still mentally, and I thought my mind must be looking at itself , but how could this be. If I think therefore am is true then who or what was looking.....things went very still then and I felt just for a moment there's nothing there doing the looking it wasn't I think therefore I am , it became I think because I think I am. Hmmmmm.
I seemed to be able to stay in this place of stillness or nothingness but something was missing it was peaceful yet I would return to "the world " again and the same old same old would be happening. Then one day I thought what if "me" is just a thought too, then things were just happening and like some loudmouth at the party I'd put this thought of me into everything.. every experience every conversation, it all seemed so simple, I'm just a thought I have about who I think I am ...if that makes sense, frankly it doesn't have to, make sense,that is, the idea that there was no me in reality made no sense either but WOW!!!! had I cracked the code YESSIR EEEEE. I looked at a tree and it was just growing people passing by were just passing by life was living all around regardless of how I intervened or not Suddenly that crazy relationship I was in worked itself out by itself Happiness was there like an old friend you haven't seen for a long time Shit would happen and you'd go" shit is happening" there was only this constant knowing around everything and for the first time in my life there was no me no past ...freedom
Many of the Practices habits ,tendencies that were done or acted on before have sort of faded away. There is a description I use to talk about "it" ... once you learn to ride a bike, I mean the moment it comes together not all the falling off although that might be part of it...can you really ever forget how to ride a bike or even practice forgetting how to or forget how to read and write could be another example. How easy it is just to be,without the constancy of me.

Sarah 7 that sounds really sci fi, I hope you're a real person not a computer program guess it doesn't matter either way Bless you always Aloka


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