I want to be free

[jeffdilbeck]

I would like to become liberated.

[nonaparry]

Hi Jeff. I see you have replied to two other threads. Is anyone working with you?

[jeffdilbeck]

Not yet.

[jeffdilbeck]

I would love to get through this though. This forum looks like grad school for seekers.

[nonaparry]

Let's get started, then. Here's how it works: I will ask questions; you will answer with 100% honesty. Please post at least once per day.

I would like to become liberated.

What do you expect liberation is going to be like? What do you want from it?

Please answer in detail.

[jeffdilbeck]

I want to become desireless. I want to emulate the love that I feel surrounding me as silence but I am constantly present as an active ego, and feel seperate from the pure and empty. I have an anchor of sorts that I can't identify and am hoping to destroy it. Also, I feel as though my concept of emptiness is neurological and not the real one.

[nonaparry]

Good. We will put your expectations aside for now, and revisit them later.

I feel as though my concept of emptiness is neurological and not the real one.

Thinking is the simplest way to avoid SEEing. Mind is determined to hold on to its identification as a separate, special, self, and uses all its wiles (Thought) to protect it. The more willing, and determined, you are to push through thought into LOOKing, the simpler seeing becomes.

Now I am going to ask some questions. There is no Right answer; there are only YOUR answers. Please be as detailed as possible in your replies so we can see clearly where you are.

Tell me precisely what thoughts and feelings come up as you read this and let this thought into your mind:
There is no separate self, no entity 'me' at all in reality. As in zero. There is everything else, life is going on as always, but it's not happening to 'me'. Like breathing is not happening to 'me', it's just happening.

Looking forward to your answer!

[jeffdilbeck]

I instantly shift into a place where I identify with different senses in my body. Tooth ache, numbness, space, visualization of my body's presence. Not so much "who am I" but "where is I's what?" Then I seem to settle back into my chest until further thoughts happen.

[nonaparry]

Good! You're doing well here.

I instantly shift into a place where I identify with different senses in my body.

Identification with the body/senses is one of the most common confusions. Who or what is experiencing tooth-ache? Who or what experiences numbness? Who or what senses space, visualises body's presence? What is the thing that knows the body is experiencing these things? How does it know "this is *my* body"?

Then I seem to settle back into my chest until further thoughts happen.

Nice. What are you experiencing in your chest? Do you notice that breathing is happening?

[jeffdilbeck]

I do notice that breathing is happening on it's own. I also notice that I can choose to become the one who is breathing . In my chest was just a thought of presence I suppose, just being somewhere. On another hand I was just at a grocery store with my wife and felt that I was kind of riding with my body rather then actually inhabiting it.

I seem to be trapped in this form, although loosened at times, and unable to be anything else. I can feel a larger presence when I become more quiet.

In terms of who is or what is feeling what....when tooth hurts it says ouch to brain, and brain tells jeff ouch, then I watch the pain. That has become more common after lots of study and experience. The problem is when I become jeff, fear the results of the problem and become a jeff who is worried rather than an I who is all. Does this make sense to you? For some reason I become fully identified with the suffering and the fear associated with it.

[nonaparry]

Haha! This makes complete and perfect sense. You will be much relieved to know that the suffering and fear 'you' are identifying with are just a story. This will become apparent as we work.

I do notice that breathing is happening on it's own.

Good! And the thought "I do notice that breathing is happening on it's own." Does that happen on its own, too? or is there a Thinker of the thought?

I also notice that I can choose to become the one who is breathing

You can? How does that work? What happens? Who is choosing? What knows 'you' as the one who is breathing?

In my chest was just a thought of presence I suppose, just being somewhere.

How did you experience that? What did it look like? feel like? What was present?

I seem to be trapped in this form, although loosened at times, and unable to be anything else.

How very interesting!! And yet, the form changes all the time! i notice *this* form is astonishingly different from the one i claimed a couple of years ago, and from the one i claimed as a teenager, and the one(s) i experienced as a child. In fact, this current form has a problem with a tendon that the previous form did not.
Is the form you seem to be trapped in unchanging??

when tooth hurts it says ouch to brain, and brain tells jeff ouch, then I watch the pain

Good. Physical tooth has an experience and sends a message to physical brain. Physical brain sends a message to nerves saying PAIN. Pain = Pay Attention; Danger!!
Where is jeff in this? Where is the 'I' that watches the pain? Please look carefully. Observe. This is geting good!

[jeffdilbeck]

Good! And the thought "I do notice that breathing is happening on it's own." Does that happen on its own, too? or is there a Thinker of the thought?

It doesn't feel like it happens on it's own, it feels like something I decided to experience.

I also notice that I can choose to become the one who is breathing
You can? How does that work? What happens? Who is choosing? What knows 'you' as the one who is breathing?

Yes, it seems that way. I just start drawing the air in, expanding my lungs, and exhaling. It feels ridiculous, contrived, and unnatural.

Who is choosing?

Not sure. Now that I think of it, I'm not sure why that happened, or what I was trying to do.

What knows 'you' as the one who is breathing?

I was the one who knew I was consciously breathing. Now it's a memory.

In my chest was just a thought of presence I suppose, just being somewhere.

How did you experience that? What did it look like? feel like? What was present?

It was almost like consciousness was parked, like a bubble of warm nothing. It looked like psychedelic archetypal non-sense, as it was a visualization, from a brain. I was present. It was just a there that was only sensing "ON".

Is the form you seem to be trapped in unchanging??

No. It changes constantly. The ability to be it, whatever it is, seems to be the only real constant.

when tooth hurts it says ouch to brain, and brain tells jeff ouch, then I watch the pain

Good. Physical tooth has an experience and sends a message to physical brain. Physical brain sends a message to nerves saying PAIN. Pain = Pay Attention; Danger!!
Where is jeff in this? Where is the 'I' that watches the pain? Please look carefully. Observe. This is geting good![/quote]
I suppose that one who watches the pain is in the brain. That's the only logical outcome for this inquiry. It's a thought? Am I a thought?

[jeffdilbeck]

Good. Physical tooth has an experience and sends a message to physical brain. Physical brain sends a message to nerves saying PAIN. Pain = Pay Attention; Danger!!
Where is jeff in this? Where is the 'I' that watches the pain? Please look carefully. Observe. This is geting good!


I suppose that one who watches the pain is in the brain. That's the only logical outcome for this inquiry. It's a thought? Am I a thought?

[nonaparry]

Good! And the thought "I do notice that breathing is happening on it's own." Does that happen on its own, too? or is there a Thinker of the thought?

It doesn't feel like it happens on it's own, it feels like something I decided to experience.

Where is the 'I' that 'decided' to experience the thought? When and how was the decision made? Who decides when you are sleeping?

I also notice that I can choose to become the one who is breathing
You can? How does that work? What happens? Who is choosing? What knows 'you' as the one who is breathing?

Yes, it seems that way. I just start drawing the air in, expanding my lungs, and exhaling. It feels ridiculous, contrived, and unnatural.

You're describing a physical reality and taking credit for what's happening all by itself. If you don't draw the air in, expand your lungs, and exhale, breathing happens anyway. Notice. The body does it without your assistance; it's an autonomic response. If there were a 'you' running the show, you'd stop breathing when you forget to send the signal, and when you sleep. No decision; no signal; no 'you' required. Check this.

What knows 'you' as the one who is breathing?
I was the one who knew I was consciously breathing. Now it's a memory.

'I' is always only a memory. Look for the 'I' who knows you are breathing. What knows you are breathing when you're not thinking about it?

In my chest was just a thought of presence I suppose, just being somewhere.

How did you experience that? What did it look like? feel like? What was present?

It was almost like consciousness was parked, like a bubble of warm nothing. It looked like psychedelic archetypal non-sense, as it was a visualization, from a brain. I was present. It was just a there that was only sensing "ON".

Look again. What you've described is a Thought about an 'I'.

Is the form you seem to be trapped in unchanging??

No. It changes constantly. The ability to be it, whatever it is, seems to be the only real constant.

You are your form?
Close your eyes and search for the boundary of 'you'. With your eyes closed, where do you end and where does the world begin? With your eyes closed, are you aware of a boundary between skin and clothes, or is this only a kind of blurry sensation?
When you open your eyes, what happens? Is there a you looking out of two holes in your head? Are you doing the seeing? Or are the sights just here, without any boundary?

when tooth hurts it says ouch to brain, and brain tells jeff ouch, then I watch the pain

Good. Physical tooth has an experience and sends a message to physical brain. Physical brain sends a message to nerves saying PAIN. Pain = Pay Attention; Danger!!
Where is jeff in this? Where is the 'I' that watches the pain? Please look carefully. Observe. This is getting good!

I suppose that one who watches the pain is in the brain. That's the only logical outcome for this inquiry. It's a thought? Am I a thought?

Yes!!! Brilliant. Superb noticing: 'I' is indeed a thought.


Rene Descartes famously said "I think; therefore I am", inspiring generations to believe that thoughts 'prove' that 'I' exist, or at least that there is an 'I' that does the thinking! But let's test it before we accept it.

Close your eyes after reading this paragraph and find that which is always present. Feelings of aliveness, aware being-ness, of ‘I am’—stay with the feeling. Is it personal? It feels personal because for all those years you thought that you exist as a separate being. It’s a sense plus labeling of the mind “me”.

Look at thoughts:
Where do they come from?
Can you control them?
What influences thoughts?
Do you know what your next though is going to be?
Can a thought be stopped in the middle?
What do you know for sure?

Notice that thoughts come and go by themselves. They are just thoughts. And there is nothing that controls them, they roll one after another and there is no way to stop or get rid of them. Like a river that is running freely.

Look at thoughts as the labeling mechanism. Experience happens, labeling follows. Noticing, observation, witnessing happens, labels pop right after.

Notice body breathing, look, is it breathing by itself of is there a breather? Label says “I breathe”. Is there an I that does the breathing? How about when you sleep? Does breathing need a breather?

Same with walking, eating, listening to music, dancing. Every experience is followed by an “I did this” comment. But look closer; is there a walker, an eater, a dancer?

Play with the labeling for a bit, notice that label 'I' is just a label, a word that precedes other words in the label.

i look forward to reading your experiences in detail!

[jeffdilbeck]

This is incredible. I'll post what I have experienced tomorrow. I may re-read a few times just to stay on point. Thank you so much.