Denis, please post here

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Moonlight
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Denis, please post here

Postby Moonlight » Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:12 pm

HI Denis, if you're ready, please reply to this post. :)
Life...is all there is. Wonderfully ordinary, extraordinarily wonderful.
http://wakingfromdelusion.blogspot.com/

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Moonlight
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Re: Denis, please post here

Postby Moonlight » Sun Jan 29, 2012 7:20 am

Where are you, Denis?
Life...is all there is. Wonderfully ordinary, extraordinarily wonderful.
http://wakingfromdelusion.blogspot.com/

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Re: Denis, please post here

Postby Denis » Sun Jan 29, 2012 6:55 pm

Hi Moonlight,

Sure appreciate your dedication to helping. I have read some exchanges you
and Elena have had with others. Your arguments are convincing.
Intellectually, I agree that self is just a thought. Before reading RT and
LU, I assumed it was a group of neurons and synapses. I am not sure when I
gave up that concept but I was certainly entrenched in that definition of
myself.

Perhaps it was when I became desperately depressed in the northwest winter
that I decided to write you. I should tell you that I tried this before
thru RT. Shane and Star Diego are close friends that recommended it with
great enthusiasm. I was highly skeptical and thought it must be like a
"born again" revelation. I am not sure now but I am sure it would be nice
to let go of the ego and self consciousness that inhibits me.

I am on my way to Arizona now. The California sun is good medicine.
Sorry I erroneously sent this to your e-mail. I think I have the communication path figured out now.

Thanks for your selfless dedication,
Denis

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Moonlight
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Re: Denis, please post here

Postby Moonlight » Mon Jan 30, 2012 3:45 am

Hi Denis. My net was off earlier for some reason,so I couldn't reply earlier. Thanks for contacting us.

Few things first: 1. Let's stay together till the end. even if there are times you want to give up. Sometimes the mind will come up with all sorts of excuses and distractions. 2. Please try to post at least once daily. This helps to maintain focus and also let's me know what's happening with you :) 3. Please write with complete honesty and from direct experience. Don't try to write 'correct' answers or what you've read. In fact, try to put aside previous book knowledge and practices.

If you're good with the above, we're ready to go!

You said you 'did this before' in RT? Did you work through the end, and were you confirmed? Right now, in your own experience, what do you consider to be the self? Who is Denis? And what are your expectations now from this inquiry?

Looking forward to hearing from you.
Life...is all there is. Wonderfully ordinary, extraordinarily wonderful.
http://wakingfromdelusion.blogspot.com/

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Moonlight
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Re: Denis, please post here

Postby Moonlight » Mon Jan 30, 2012 1:43 pm

Hi Moonlight!

Am not sure I have this posting system figured out. I'll try.

Good idea to make a commitment. I have had a problem with that. I will stay with you as long as you put up with me. I will write at least once daily. It will be honest and from direct experience. If it seems unreal please let me know.

No, I did not work thru to the end on RT. Am not sure who was helping me.

Wow. Right now my self would be a nebulous blob between my eyes and ears. It has memories back to three years of age that I think of as Denis. This blob is on the road to Phoenix from the Olympic Peninsula looking for sunshine. Am staying near San Francisco tonight with my daughter and talking about memories from her childhood.

Expectations: Weaken my ego attachment and self consciousness. Is that realistic? It would be nice to assign less blame, guilt, and regret to my self over relationships. I am not good at staying connected with friends. Not that anyone dislikes me, that I am aware, but I tend to neglect the connections.

Thank you for your concern. That is most admirable.

Denis
I took the liberty of copying your pm, as I thought its an error in using the system rather than a need for privacy.

Your expectations, well, the emotions you mentioned, they need a self to stick to, don't they? When that doesn't exist...

The "nebulous blob" which has memories back to three years of age, that you think of as Denis, the memories of that Denis, are they of the same person? Except the memory in the brain, what is common between that Denis and the Denis now? Is there a little Denis inside those very different bodies which has remained the same since then?

What if there is no entity Denis inside, controlling the body/mind labeled with that name. None at all. What comes up then?
Life...is all there is. Wonderfully ordinary, extraordinarily wonderful.
http://wakingfromdelusion.blogspot.com/

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Re: Denis, please post here

Postby Denis » Mon Jan 30, 2012 6:42 pm

I hope this route is the proper way to post this reply. No, I have no need for privacy here. Thanks for copying my note here.

No, it is not the same person since childhood except for the memories. However, it very much seems like there exists a little Denis that evolved with the bodies.

If there is no entity Denis inside this body and/or mind, I am elated! There are just things and changing conditions. There is a bird on a treetop outside the window. Oops, there was a bird on the tree top. There is cereal being swallowed. There is a telescope on the deck and of course much more in my field of view. Sounds of a clock ticking and all those physical objects in a house and the processes of nature occurring outside.

The prospect of "no entity Denis" seems liberating (cliche, huh?) but the feeling is real. I like it a lot.

Thanks for the thought provoking questions and your patience. Let me know if this goes to a private message instead of public.

Dennis

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Re: Denis, please post here

Postby Moonlight » Mon Jan 30, 2012 8:47 pm

So, can you find the Denis that evolved with the body? Don't say 'seems to be'. Right now, if you look for Denis, can you find him? Can you find the one who experience, for example reading these words, is happening TO? The experiencER?
Life...is all there is. Wonderfully ordinary, extraordinarily wonderful.
http://wakingfromdelusion.blogspot.com/

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Re: Denis, please post here

Postby Denis » Tue Jan 31, 2012 6:54 am

Hi Moonlight,

I've been driving all day or would have responded much sooner.

I find that mental blob but it seems expanded since yesterday. I find a body sitting on a motel bed typing and looking for my self. I am aware of familiar sensations such as a full stomach and cold hands. Aware that I need to get up and brush my teeth and take a shower. All very familiar feelings and routines that don't define Denis, although they have in the past.

The only constant is the blob, even though it expands and contracts. The analogy that it is no more concrete than an image of a unicorn is good but the blob is more constant. Whew! This may be working.

thanks a bunch for the pointers,
Denis

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Moonlight
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Re: Denis, please post here

Postby Moonlight » Tue Jan 31, 2012 8:57 am

It's like an imaginary baby we hold onto and cradle. And we are so used to holding it, we start believing its really there. But if we let go, what will happen? Will any baby really fall on the floor and get hurt? Nothing is going to happen. There isn't any baby and there never was.

Look at experience as it is happening, as you are typing, looking. The sensations. There is awareness of them. But the ownership of that awareness, of the experience, that is a thought. Look to see, is there really an owner, or is it a thought saying "I am typing", "I am looking". LOOK for the looker, the thinker. What do you find?
Life...is all there is. Wonderfully ordinary, extraordinarily wonderful.
http://wakingfromdelusion.blogspot.com/

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Re: Denis, please post here

Postby Denis » Wed Feb 01, 2012 4:54 am

Hi Moonlight,

Yes, it is like an imaginary baby except I'd like to drop this one. I don't consciously fear getting hurt by losing it.

I am looking. Have looked often today. Right now I do have sensations that are pleasant. Like one has after a good dinner and walk with friends, then the welcome feeling from your post here.

This looker is this guy typing and knowing I will not find a substantial self. As I look I feel a sense of relief there is nothing there but know the ego will be back. Of course I know I will not find a substance that I can ID as my self, just empty space surrounded by skin.

I do have a question: How does one argue that one's self is not the composite body surrounded by skin? I know the parts can exist independently but a reasonable definition of a self is the composite open system, albeit changing, when it functions to be alive and aware.

thanks,
Denis

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Moonlight
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Re: Denis, please post here

Postby Moonlight » Wed Feb 01, 2012 7:23 am

Dear Denis, thanks for writing honestly.

Nothing is stopping you from dropping your imaginary baby but your thoughts :)
This looker is this guy typing and knowing I will not find a substantial self. As I look I feel a sense of relief there is nothing there but know the ego will be back. Of course I know I will not find a substance that I can ID as my self, just empty space surrounded by skin.
Do not intellectualize or go by prior 'knowledge'. For example, 'I know the ego will be back" or "I know I will not find a substance...", etc.

Write from direct experience. Actually LOOK for the looker, the guy typing. Can you actually find someone controlling, typing, the substance that can be ID'ed, as you put it? If you actually KNEW he wasn't there, you wouldn't say "the looker is this guy typing". The knowing you talk about is more thoughts. The looking is like a physical looking, similar to focusing on a body sensation. Not thoughts about the self. Focus.

What do you refer to when you say "the ego"? What is it composed of?

The body exists. The mind exists. But there is no ownership of them, no 'self' who is controlling them, no "I" separate from the rest of life.

Thanks.
Life...is all there is. Wonderfully ordinary, extraordinarily wonderful.
http://wakingfromdelusion.blogspot.com/

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Re: Denis, please post here

Postby Denis » Thu Feb 02, 2012 4:57 am

Hi Moonlight,

OK, no intellectualizing. I hope I can drop the baby :-0

You are right, I don't actually know the self isn't there. Knowing is a thought. That makes sense. No self is going to take some focus, as you said. How long should one concentrate on looking (as in minutes)?

Am going to work on focus. Look forward to hearing from you tomorrow.

thanks for your kindness, dennis

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Moonlight
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Re: Denis, please post here

Postby Moonlight » Thu Feb 02, 2012 9:28 am

OK, two things to look at. Do this as you go about your day.

1. Watch thoughts as they come up. Where do they come from? Is there a self controlling thoughts? Try to spend some time doing this.

2. As you go about the day doing routine activities, for a few moments each time, try to find the doER. Each time you look, it wont take more than a few moments, as you aren't to THINK about the doer, but SEE if you can find one. For example, as you read, try to find if there is a person inside doing the reading, etc.

How can one drop a baby that isn't there in the first place? :)
Life...is all there is. Wonderfully ordinary, extraordinarily wonderful.
http://wakingfromdelusion.blogspot.com/

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Denis
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Re: Denis, please post here

Postby Denis » Fri Feb 03, 2012 6:00 am

Hi Moonlight,

I'll watch for the thoughts and origins. I had done that today some but will do more tomorrow.

Look for the doER. Got it. The not "think" part may be harder. Concept of trying to see is so abstract I when I don't expect to find anything but mind and body.

I still am not clear on why the mind and body is not defined as self even though self is not controlling them? Can you help me with that?

thanks a bunch, dennis

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Moonlight
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Re: Denis, please post here

Postby Moonlight » Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:53 pm

See, Dennis, the body exists, right, as does the mind?

Do they 'belong' to someone?

Try to keep expectations out of it, keep it like a fresh seeing of something.
Life...is all there is. Wonderfully ordinary, extraordinarily wonderful.
http://wakingfromdelusion.blogspot.com/


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