How do you know when you're done?

This is a read-only part of the forum. All threads where seeing happens are stored here and come from this forum, the Facebook guiding area and various LU blogs. The complete list, sorted by guide, contains all links. The archives include threads of those that came to LU already seeing as well.
User avatar
Daniel
Posts: 54
Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2011 3:32 am

How do you know when you're done?

Postby Daniel » Sat Jan 28, 2012 12:04 am

I used to read RT, had a few threads there. I had a lot of false ideas that needed to be cleared up, and they helped along with reading some Jed Mckenna. I've read the various blogs, and just more recently I had a thread here which you can see http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=178.

So basically as a result of that thread it seems like I did see this pretty clearly but I felt like I never quite pushed it all the way through. A couple of times it sort of felt as if a vortex, for lack of a better term, was opening up and I would go like halfway through and then get scared. Sometimes this "Backing out" happened as like preconscious decision, it already happened by the time I even ever realized what was going on, no conscious decision. Other times I would think like I want to experience life, and if there is no self how can "I" experience it?"

However there were other times without any feeling of having "crossed over" that I could most clearly see that I am not the thoughts, I am not the feelings, these are just things are are happening within observable reality, and I have often heard said around these communities that to see it once for even a second is to see it. I have for the most part remained living in a state of what I can only call "elevated" consciousness. However over the past week or two it seems like this has faded which was quite disconcerting, so I came back and was reading the blogs,forums, and even Brutal Beginnings and it took a minute, but in short order again I see thoughts and feelings are just that.

This is where it gets a bit confusing for me. I see thoughts and feelings are not "I", that I is just a word, just as any name is only a descriptor and not the thing itself, but I feel pretty attached to me. I don't know if I'm living in a "high" state of regular consciousness, or I have seen it and don't completely realize it. There is a question Ilona asked me "How can a thought see through itself?" and of course it can't, a thought ca only be there or not, it can't see anything, so then seems silly to look any more. I have also heard (not here) "Why were you born to this body?" It is because there is no "you" every body has an experiencer born to it that it believes to actually be itself, but really it is just the first person perspective of the senses coming out of a particular body. There are times when satori like states just sort of arise out of nowhere, especially if I am talking about something that I am passionate about or that riles me up, but other times where I feel just as shitty as before. When it comes to dealing with women I start to question my value to them, if I don't exist, how can I have a low self opinion? I still tend to place myself below other people on a regular basis. I've seen a couple of times where someone didn't realize they were done, which I think is a possibility, or if I'm not how do determine that and push the rest of the way through.

User avatar
Daniel
Posts: 54
Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2011 3:32 am

Re: How do you know when you're done?

Postby Daniel » Sat Jan 28, 2012 12:05 am

okay well the link didn't post right, but the thread was just called Daniel. it was December if anyone wants to look.

User avatar
nonaparry
Posts: 1111
Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2012 9:55 pm
Location: London, England

Re: How do you know when you're done?

Postby nonaparry » Sat Jan 28, 2012 10:02 am

Hi Daniel, my name is Nona.

So you would say you have seen through the illusion of self? How did that happen? What's the difference between before and after? How does the illusion of self happen in practice?

Really make it detailed and practical, put 'your' experience on the line. Convince us that we have the same experience.
"When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains—however improbable—must be the truth." ~ Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

User avatar
Daniel
Posts: 54
Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2011 3:32 am

Re: How do you know when you're done?

Postby Daniel » Sun Jan 29, 2012 4:41 am

Okay. I looked at this for a while today and I definitely see that I am not there. I think where the question was coming up for me, is that I can sit and stare at it, and see that there is no one doing actions or thoughts. So it is like I sit and I see the actions/thoughts just sort of occurring of themselves. I see it and experientialy it doesn't feel like I'm doing them either. There is definitely a feeling of voidness there. It also seems like yes I have seen no me dozens, if not a hundred times, it never seems to stay though. It's like as soon as I stop directly looking it's gone, but then comes up by itself at random from time to time. It feels like I am continually going far enough for this to happen, but it's not.

User avatar
nonaparry
Posts: 1111
Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2012 9:55 pm
Location: London, England

Re: How do you know when you're done?

Postby nonaparry » Sun Jan 29, 2012 7:46 am

It's simple — so simple that it seems complicated. There is no self. There is no separate special entity doing actions, thinking thoughts, experiencing life. Life is living itself, thankyouverymuch, with no need of any identity to claim actions, thoughts, experiences, selfhood.

Self is a label, a word that points to nothing. It is a story, a fiction that we were initiated into at a very early age and have never questioned. But LOOK. Look through your eyes. Point at an object. It has shape and colour. You label it. Desk. It is real. When you stop believing in it, it does not disappear.

Now point to 'you'. Look through your eyes. What do you see? Tell me.
"When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains—however improbable—must be the truth." ~ Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

User avatar
Daniel
Posts: 54
Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2011 3:32 am

Re: How do you know when you're done?

Postby Daniel » Mon Jan 30, 2012 12:19 am

I am there right now. At this point where it seems like I should be far enough. I see that there is nothing there, but somehow the mind just won't separate itself from this idea, it won't quite let it go, almost, but not quite. I see the thoughts describe a thing, but I can't actually see the thing. The mind assumes the feelings refer to something, I can't find the something, there is just feeling all the way through. But the illusion remains.

User avatar
nonaparry
Posts: 1111
Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2012 9:55 pm
Location: London, England

Re: How do you know when you're done?

Postby nonaparry » Mon Jan 30, 2012 4:53 am

No. There are no Shoulds in direct experience. There is no far enough. There is no 'you' to be there. Mind is what the brain does; it is already separate from "this idea".
I see the thoughts describe a thing, but I can't actually see the thing.
Be specific. What "thing" are you describing and looking for? Let's check if it even exists to be seen.
The mind assumes the feelings refer to something, I can't find the something, there is just feeling all the way through.
Again. Be specific. I don't know what you are talking about. Language is imprecise, but it's all we've got for communicating on this forum.
I have a feeling. I label it: Anger. I can't find it if I look for it because it is a thought.

Daniel, I can help you SEE; what I can't do is stop you THINKing. All this that you wrote is about what you are Thinking, but I asked you to write about what you SEE. I can't even figure out if you are responding to my direction.

So let's try this again. LOOK. Look through your eyes. Point at an object. It has shape and colour. You label it. Desk. It is real. When you stop believing in it, it does not disappear.

Now point to 'you'. Look through your eyes. What do you see? Tell me. Write in detail about what you experience.
"When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains—however improbable—must be the truth." ~ Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

User avatar
Daniel
Posts: 54
Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2011 3:32 am

Re: How do you know when you're done?

Postby Daniel » Mon Jan 30, 2012 3:46 pm

[quote="nonaparry"]
Be specific. What "thing" are you describing and looking for? Let's check if it even exists to be seen.

[quote]

You are right, that post was a bit rambling. The "thing" I am referring to is a direct looking experience. Seeing that as you would say, there is only seeing, there is no "I" to be doing it. Seeing just happens and then a label "I/me" is attached to it, and so it is with all phenomenon in life. A car passes outside my window , attention automatically snaps to and follows the sound. There is no one in control of that happening it just happens, sound is heard, that is all, but the mind assumes ownership of the hearing. I can get to a point where all that is seen, and I can sit there, but if I stop looking it's gone. If "I" don't actively maintain observation of this fact, it's not seen.

I am looking for a certainty that the process is finished in whatever form that comes in. In the interest of full disclosure, I had an experience on mushrooms about three years ago. Due to an argument with a friend I had this realization that not everything I thought was a universal truth. Of course on one level I already knew that, but on another there was this epiphany of the true reality of it. At that point I stopped vocalizing all my thoughts, and questioned their truth. I had no idea what I was doing but there was a sort of feeling of build up of the thoughts, a sort of internalized pressure. After about fifteen minutes of this the pressure sort of popped, a feeling of like an explosion in the mind, and then clarity. Just like all the books had always described I was on the outside watching myself from the third person, but it was brought on artificially and didn't last. I have heard/read others on this (and the other related forums) describe a pop, I guess I'm sort of expecting something like that. But even in the total absence of anything of the sort, I am looking to know I'm done. As it is now, as long as I look, I see it, that "state" for the lack of a better term is there. But it never seems to be done. It's like it could be forgotten about, if I went about my business for a week and didn't think about it, it would disappear never to return unless I made a concerted, conscience effort. I am looking to know, and for a permanent switch. Not to be happy all the time, or to see unicorns and rainbows everywhere I go, or anything magical like that, I don't expect to stop thinking. Just certainty, a knowing that I'm through, permanence.

As far as the look and see what you see in physical reality idea, it can be somewhat helpful, but it doesn't do a lot for me. There are many things in life that I cannot see that do in fact exist. I can't see a feeling. I can't see an electron (I know it's possible, but I've never seen one and the chances of me seeing one are slim so it's hearsay to me, just a belief as I've been warned about from this community, don't just go of belief, really see it.)

So when I look I see, thoughts, feelings, I see objects around me, and I see a pervasive thought pattern that labels them all as me I,me,mine. Total identification, it still all seems very personal, it is my thought pattern that does the labeling.

User avatar
Ilona
Site Admin
Posts: 7651
Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2011 1:57 pm
Location: Lithuania
Contact:

Re: How do you know when you're done?

Postby Ilona » Mon Jan 30, 2012 4:10 pm

Hey Daniel. Done? That's just a myth. It will be done when this body dies.
Nothing changes, mind still narrates the story and it's not gonna stop, that is on automatic. That's the function of the mind.

But can you really go back to believing that there is this separate entity 'me' that does thinking and doing?
How certain are you about that?
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com

User avatar
Ilona
Site Admin
Posts: 7651
Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2011 1:57 pm
Location: Lithuania
Contact:

Re: How do you know when you're done?

Postby Ilona » Mon Jan 30, 2012 4:15 pm

Oh, and nothing is permanent. Life is not frozen. It's always a flux. Like a river, freeflowing.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com

User avatar
nonaparry
Posts: 1111
Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2012 9:55 pm
Location: London, England

Re: How do you know when you're done?

Postby nonaparry » Mon Jan 30, 2012 8:42 pm

Good!! Thank you for writing In Detail!! Your detail makes it possible for me to gain a clearer understanding of where you are in the process.
You are right, that post was a bit rambling.
No; not rambling: thinking. That's where you're stuck: you think too much. But you're lucky; that's where I was stuck, too, and when you're determined to break the door down, we'll get you through.
Seeing that as you would say, there is only seeing, there is no "I" to be doing it. Seeing just happens and then a label "I/me" is attached to it, and so it is with all phenomenon in life. A car passes outside my window , attention automatically snaps to and follows the sound. There is no one in control of that happening it just happens, sound is heard, that is all, but the mind assumes ownership of the hearing.
Yes. Thank you for being specific. I notice that you 'know' intellectually; now we will create a way for you to SEE it.
I am looking for a certainty that the process is finished in whatever form that comes in.
Okay. First, the Process is Life and that's never finished. Always in flux, as Ilona points out! Second, you are not 'done'. You are standing at the Gate.
Let's find out what is keeping you from passing through.
I was on the outside watching myself from the third person
I have also had that experience! but not brought on by drugs. It was interesting, but that's not no-self. It's not liberation.
Is that the experience you have been expecting? If so, I can see how disappointing it could be to be trying to slip the body when all we're doing here is to help you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that there is no 'you'.
As far as the look and see what you see in physical reality idea, it can be somewhat helpful, but it doesn't do a lot for me.
Yeah—that was my response when Ilona kept telling me to LOOK. It turned out I wasn't Looking; I was Thinking. Which is what I notice you are doing.
So when I look I see, thoughts, feelings, I see objects around me, and I see a pervasive thought pattern that labels them all as me I,me,mine
Thank you for trying to do the exercise.
You SEE thoughts??? No. Look again.
You SEE feelings??? Really? Point to one.
You see objects; good! We'll get back to this.
You SEE a pervasive thought pattern that labels things???? No way. POINT to it.
it is my thought pattern that does the labeling.
The label IS a thought. The "thought pattern" is a network of memories, built partly from experience and partly from input from parents, relatives, teachers, etc. It's not 'yours'.
And THAT, I submit, is what 'you' are, too. A character labeled Daniel, in a fictional story. The label is Daniel; the character is created partly from experience and partly from input from parents, relatives, teachers, etc. Except the label 'Daniel' doesn't point to anything Real.

So. You see an object. Seeing is not a simple camera-like snapshot; perception, while it appears to be purely physical, actually incorporates our past experiences, feelings, and thoughts about the object to identify and label the object. It happens so quickly, we remain unaware of anything other than the image we see.
There are many things in life that I cannot see that do in fact exist.
Okay. And since I'm here to show that 'you' don't exist, lets look at some other things that we're familiar with that don't exist.
Santa Claus, for example. He is a fictional character, yet most of us grew up believing in him. In fact, you are now so aware that Santa Claus does not exist in reality that if I ask you to look for Santa you will not even bother.
Yet you cling to the fiction that Daniel is real.

Or how about Batman? A fictional character in a story. Just like Daniel. Yet you persist in thinking that Daniel exists.

So here is the next exercise. Please throw yourself into it with abandon, and write in detail what you experience.

Walk. Pay attention to the sensations of your feet striking the ground. Just the sensation; not any thoughts that come up about it. For the duration of this exercise, suspend thought. Only attend to the sensations of feet striking ground. Notice if a thought arises, and let it pass. Attend to the sensations. What do you notice when you attend to the sensations without thought?

Next, while washing your hands or doing the dishes or any time your hands are in water, Notice the sensations of water on your hands. There are more nerve endings in your fingers than almost any other part of the body, so there will be lots of sensation. Be aware of them without thinking about them. Only attend to the sensations of water on your hands. What do you notice when you attend to the sensations without thought?

Thank you for being willing to try this. I look forward to reading about your direct experiences!
"When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains—however improbable—must be the truth." ~ Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

User avatar
Daniel
Posts: 54
Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2011 3:32 am

Re: How do you know when you're done?

Postby Daniel » Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:44 pm


Walk. Pay attention to the sensations of your feet striking the ground. Just the sensation; not any thoughts that come up about it. For the duration of this exercise, suspend thought. Only attend to the sensations of feet striking ground. Notice if a thought arises, and let it pass. Attend to the sensations. What do you notice when you attend to the sensations without thought?
I was totally unable to do this. I walked several miles for an hour or more and mind thoughts didn't stop the entire time. I told myself several times to stop and just pay attention to the sensations and I couldn't. It is quite compulsive and unpleasant. Of course just like most people think pretty constantly but today was especially bad.

User avatar
nonaparry
Posts: 1111
Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2012 9:55 pm
Location: London, England

Re: How do you know when you're done?

Postby nonaparry » Wed Feb 01, 2012 3:15 am

I was totally unable to do this.
No worries; we can even use this inability to move toward our goal.
I walked several miles for an hour or more and mind thoughts didn't stop the entire time.
Where did the thoughts come from? Was there a 'you' thinking them? Do 'you' create the thoughts?
I told myself several times to stop
Who did you tell? How did you do it?

The thoughts that you describe are the way we represent a 'self' to our mind; they explain and reinforce the story we tell of our 'self'. When you look at your experience, "walking and thinking", can you see how thoughts add to the story of Daniel? Now I'm walking...now I'm looking at the footpath...now I'm failing at this exercise...now I'm just walking and thinking... This is the Story of Daniel.

Another chapter: Now I'm reading a message. Now I'm typing on the computer.
Check it out.
Is there a 'you' who reads and types?
"When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains—however improbable—must be the truth." ~ Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

User avatar
Daniel
Posts: 54
Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2011 3:32 am

Re: How do you know when you're done?

Postby Daniel » Wed Feb 08, 2012 5:09 pm

Another repeated issue for me is the one of fear. Several times, even before ever discovering any of this stuff, I have come close, to a point where I sort of start to "cross over" both from Realizations I had while reading David Hawkins and Maharaj, and then many more times since starting with Rt and LU. The mind always seems to back away. It seems like a decision that is made at a preconscious level. Like, I know the mind actually makes decisions before we are even conscious of them, and that's really how it seems here. Like by the time I even realize what's happening, the mind has already made the decision to stop. there is also the hesitation (again unconscious) to look with whole heartedly in a way because of the fear of what will happen. I do want it on a rational level but it seems there is a part of me that is sort of self sabotaging.

User avatar
nonaparry
Posts: 1111
Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2012 9:55 pm
Location: London, England

Re: How do you know when you're done?

Postby nonaparry » Wed Feb 08, 2012 8:52 pm

Oh, yes indeed!!! Fear itself is a protection mechanism. The "I" is protected with more walls than you even suspect! The loss of self is truly the thing humans most fear about death.

So let's look at this fear of loss of self.

We think that without a self, we are dead; we would no longer exist in the world.

Now LOOK through your eyes at the world around you. You don't worry that flowers don't have a self, but exist. You don't even give a thought to the furnishings in your room that exist without self.

But YOU! You are 'special'. Right?

Now look at a cat/dog or some animal you know familiarly that has a distinct personality. Does cat have a self? Or does he operate purely as an expression of Being? Does cat think about a decision to chase birds today or take a bath or have a nap? Or are these actions simply the expression in the world of cat being cat?

Please LOOK at this. WATCH an animal behave in the world, and come back and report In Detail on what you experienced.
"When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains—however improbable—must be the truth." ~ Sir Arthur Conan Doyle


Return to “ARCHIVES”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Majestic-12 [Bot] and 2 guests