I would like to offer my help for people

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Susanne
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I would like to offer my help for people

Postby Susanne » Wed Jul 29, 2015 9:48 am

How did you find Liberation Unleashed?: By surfing in the internet

I would like to offer my help for people volunteerly and guide them in German language preferable but also in English.

As I got help to investigate into the "I am the person, Susanne" after coming back from "The Last Satsang" in India I would like to offer guidance for people volunteerly.

I am happy to say today that I was a seeker for 20 years, red a lot of books (Eckhart Tolle etc.), travelled to Mooji in Portugal and finally to India where I got rid of many false beliefs. Coming back from this 5 week intensive satsang there was still the feeling of an "I" where I got great help from a guide.

Now I really feel free and happy to guide others.

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Alexw
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Re: I would like to offer my help for people

Postby Alexw » Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:08 am

Hi Susanne,

Great to have you here. Can you tell me a bit more about the last part of your journey? What did you realise with the help of the guide that you mentioned?
What was this feeling of "I" that is gone now? What did you lose and what is left?

Kind regards,
Alex

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Susanne
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Re: I would like to offer my help for people

Postby Susanne » Wed Jul 29, 2015 1:14 pm

Hi Alex,

thank you for your response.

What I mainly realized with the help of my guide was that I was still quite entangled in thoughts. I wasn't able to realise that I was a thought! And what a relief when realising that thoughts can be there because they come and go by themselves. And on the other hand they were already there before I realised them. So why fighting against them?

This feeling of I was "I am this body" and when I realised that the body is innocent and reacts with feelings and sense perception to the mind/thoughts the "I am the body- attachment" desolved. With this realisation I lost an illusion and what is left is clarity, I am awareness, ever present, never lost.

Kind regards,
Susanne,

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Alexw
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Re: I would like to offer my help for people

Postby Alexw » Thu Jul 30, 2015 12:45 am

Hi Susanne,

Thank you for the answers.
Sorry if I ask a few more questions, just would like to clarify one more thing :-)
I wasn't able to realise that I was a thought! And what a relief when realising that thoughts can be there because they come and go by themselves.
Yes, true, this I/self is only a conceptual structure, simply thought referring to an entity that cannot be found in direct experience. And yes, well seen, they do arise without a controlling entity...
And on the other hand they were already there before I realised them. So why fighting against them?
Ok, doesn't make sense fighting them... agree.
Who/what is the "I" that realises that they are there? Isn't this simply another thought saying "Ahhh, I had a thought about dinner tonight... So lets compile a shopping list!"
This feeling of I was "I am this body" and when I realised that the body is innocent and reacts with feelings and sense perception to the mind/thoughts the "I am the body- attachment" desolved.
Yes, agree, you are not this body. "Body" is a concept, just like "tree" or "car"...
What makes it special and why do we identify with it? Isn't it simply a learning process and after a while you know that this is your hand, foot, head and that certain sensation are labelled "Pain in my head" etc... It is not a bad thing at all to have this knowledge, quite the opposite, but what is important is to realise that this is acquired knowledge and that it can be lost. It is only thought based, the body doesn't know anything about ownership, an I/self or any other concepts... How do you see that?
With this realisation I lost an illusion and what is left is clarity, I am awareness, ever present, never lost.
Ok, the "I am the body" illusion was seen through - you now say "I am awareness". How do you know that? Did you have a specific experience or was this a logical conclusion based on your inquiry?

When you sit down and look, hear, smell, feel - what is there? Is there something called awareness that is aware of this experience? Can you separate awareness from experience? Can you separate awareness from thought?
What tells you that "I am awareness!". Can awareness itself come to this conclusion?

Please let me know how you see that.

Kind regards,
Alex

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Susanne
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Re: I would like to offer my help for people

Postby Susanne » Thu Jul 30, 2015 8:54 am

Hi Alex,

is it ok to write in English? Because the German setup comes up.

Anyway I am going to answer your questions:
The 'I' that realises thoughts, feelings, sense perceptions, sensations, the body...is awareness, I am, which perceives everything and where everything appears and disappears in.

Yes, the body is totally innocent, doesn't know anything about ownership, which is also an illusion based on the belief "I am a person with acquired knowledge". Nothing wrong with that, but it has no substance. Yes, once seen what it is it can be lost. But nothing happens without awareness; everything is made out of awareness.

It was a direct experience when I suddenly recognised that I can't be what I perceive. I am the perceiver without a perceiving entity behind.

Looking, hearing, smelling,tasting feeling,thinking....is just happening and every shape is made out of awareness. So there is no separation it only seems to be.

The recognition "I am awareness" took a second to be clear. It just happened on a retreat with Mooji. No conclusion, just clarity.

Thank you for asking these questions,
kind regards,
Susanne

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Alexw
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Re: I would like to offer my help for people

Postby Alexw » Thu Jul 30, 2015 10:28 am

Hi Susanne,
Looking, hearing, smelling,tasting feeling,thinking....is just happening and every shape is made out of awareness. So there is no separation it only seems to be.
Yes, its just happening and there is no separation outside of thought introducing conceptual borders where there really are none.
The recognition "I am awareness" took a second to be clear. It just happened on a retreat with Mooji. No conclusion, just clarity.
I know this is difficult to put into words and all I want you to see is that even the statement "I am awareness" or "I am the perceiver/knower" is a conceptual idea that can turn into an identification with a new entity.
You cannot find an "I" that is "awareness", can you?
It is an analytical thought that states "I am awareness". It builds on the idea about something called "awareness" and I am that... When you look at it, then yes there is something (we can call it awareness), but there is no "I" that could be it... Thought is dual in nature and duality is all that it can grasp, thus it states "I am awareness"... Do you see my point?

Anyway, I know what you mean and maybe I am oversensitive to this idea of "awareness" - if we wouldn't use concepts, what would be left to say?

We have a routine here at LU where newly gated answer a few questions at the end of the dialogue, so if you don't mind, please have a look at them (feel free to answer 3 and 4 based your previous experiences):

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for?
Please give examples from recent experience.

6) Anything to add?

Regards
Alex

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Susanne
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Re: I would like to offer my help for people

Postby Susanne » Sat Aug 01, 2015 3:59 am

Hi Alex,

thank you very much for mentioning "your" oversensivity. You must have noticed some insecurity in my answers because of more intellectual knowledge.
When I started to answer your questions last night again fear came up and I stopped after I had answered your 3rd question.
It doesn't help neither "me" nor "others" when I am not fully sure. Honesty has a very high meaning for me and
for that reason I would like you to be my guide or please get me into contact with another guide.

Kind regards,
Susanne

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Alexw
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Re: I would like to offer my help for people

Postby Alexw » Sat Aug 01, 2015 4:23 am

Hi Susanne,

I would be happy to guide you. You have come a far way and most of what you have seen is spot on.

I think we should revisit the part where you seem to become unsure... Please tell me if I am wrong, but I feel that when you say "I am awareness", you are not really convinced, are you?

When you make this statement it should be based on your direct experience, right?
So, please tell me how you experience that "I am awareness".
When you look, hear, smell, taste and feel, what tells you that this is the case?
Can any of the senses do that? What can?

You mentioned fear. What were you afraid of?
Can you please report how this happened, what did you feel, how did your body react, what did you think?

Kind regards
Alex

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Susanne
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Re: I would like to offer my help for people

Postby Susanne » Sun Aug 02, 2015 12:58 pm

Hi Alex,

I am also happy that we both can continue.

"I am awareness" you are not really convinced, are you? you asked me.
When I used these words I didn't really feel comfortable with but I didn't know how to put "my " direct experience into words which I'll try now:
The recognition happened on a retreat with Mooji where a shift in consciousness happened where "I" could see that I am "the perceiver" of everything and that "I" can not be what "I" perceive. That happenend out of the blue and was and is seen very clearly.
But still the feeling "I am a person" was also there getting stronger after the retreat that the thought came up that the recognition also had been an experience only- even a special one - which didn't help really.
When "I" found Liberation Unleashed and "my" guide asked me to look for this "I" there was nothing to find, nothing to see and the main recognition was that the 'reference point'/the 'I' feeling had gone as if there would be nothing left to hold on to which also was an unquestioned feeling. And this nothing is seen like black infinity, openness, emptiness, wideness, which is seen by nobody, like a knowing that I am that.

That, life itself, existence, I , expresses through the sense perceptions, the senses themselves can't.

While answering to the first part of your questions below I was at the same time with a spirituel group in the internet which brought up a lot of confusion and so the fear of failure came up whether I would be able to ask these kind of questions with such clarity when I would guide someone. So I cancelled the membership immediately and wrote to you. 'My' body reacted with faster heart beat and sort of contraction in the chest which was seen at the same time.

Kind regards,
Susanne

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Alexw
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Re: I would like to offer my help for people

Postby Alexw » Mon Aug 03, 2015 2:22 am

Hi Susanne,
The recognition happened on a retreat with Mooji where a shift in consciousness happened where "I" could see that I am "the perceiver" of everything and that "I" can not be what "I" perceive. That happenend out of the blue and was and is seen very clearly.
But still the feeling "I am a person" was also there getting stronger after the retreat that the thought came up that the recognition also had been an experience only- even a special one - which didn't help really.
...and what if this thought, that it was also only an experience - a special one, yes - is true? Would you be disappointed?
As you mentioned, there still was the "I am a person" feeling there... can a feeling tell you that you are a person? Can it even tell you that you are? Does it say "I am"? When feelings arise, when something is experienced, there is no need for thought, but whenever a feeling or experience is described to be a certain way then thought is for sure present and colours the experience. What if a shift in consciousness is nothing else but a temporary disruption of certain thought streams? Would that make the experience less valuable? Why? Is this special experience more valuable than this one right now?

Awareness, consciousness, points of view, a shift of a point of view... do you see that they are all concepts? As long as you can think and later talk about, or remember, an experience you can be sure that you are not anymore talking about the experience, but a conceptualised version of it.

Look at this feeling of separation that most people believe they feel. Is it real? Is it just something you have learned? Where can you find separation besides as a thought?
If there is none, only thought creating the illusion of separation, then how should you be able to experience really anything objective if not thought the medium of thought? Can you think or talk about anything that you have not objectified and wrapped into labels and concepts?
had been an experience only- even a special one - which didn't help really
OK, so lets assume it was only a special experience... "which didn't help"...
What would help you? What needs to change so you reach your goal? What is your goal? As UG often said "What do you want?"

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Susanne
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Re: I would like to offer my help for people

Postby Susanne » Mon Aug 03, 2015 9:24 am

Hi Alex,

I didn't realise that all there is are experiences through sense perceptions coloured by thoughts afterwards.
That was the reason a thought coloured the experience at Mooji's retreat as a special one which is not true but the belief into this experience as the most valuable seemed to keep me on the search to reach a certain goal in the future!!!!!!!!

Thank you, Alex, asking me these kind of questions.

Experiences are experiences which are happening all the time. Different kind of thoughts and feelings arise just by themselves about the experience and become a conceptualised version of it. The thought may arise that this one is more valuable than others which isn't true.

And no, no feeling can tell me "I am", that is known. "I am", I exist, is the only truth and everything else is learned, made up and objectified and nothing is wrong with that. It's the way it is.

"What did I want?"
Clarity and the truth who am I.
Now it's crystal clear that "I am" with or without clarity, with or without confusion...........

Thank you,
Susanne

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Alexw
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Re: I would like to offer my help for people

Postby Alexw » Tue Aug 04, 2015 12:26 am

Hi Susanne,
I didn't realise that all there is are experiences through sense perceptions coloured by thoughts afterwards.
Well, yes, at least thats all we can think and talk about... as soon as you make a statement of something being "all there is" you move on unstable ground. This is a thought based understanding and its always going to be in duality.
Its a complete deadlock - everything that thought comes up with can be negated. If experience is "all there is" then whats happening in deep sleep? There is no experience, nothing seems to be there, but is this so or is there just no thought about it, no memory of it? When you watch TV and before turning it on you had a headache, now the TV is on and the pain is suddenly gone... why? Because there is no more sensation? Or because you simply don't think about it..?

You, which is a thought, can not know as "you" have not been there, have you? Do you see how everything you say about how things are is simply thought trying to justify its existence? Trying to make sense of something that is beyond it (or rather, that thought has not been able to grasp or process)?

Look at communication: When you talk to someone, there is sound, ok... there is thought about this sound, interpreting it. There is another thought formulating an answer. A few sounds are being made by another organism and the same thing is repeated again and again... But, who is talking? And who is listening? Are there separate entities talking to each other? What knows the meaning of the sounds? What states that "I am listening to you"?

Regards
Alex

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Susanne
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Re: I would like to offer my help for people

Postby Susanne » Tue Aug 04, 2015 7:59 am

Hi Alex,

by reading your last email frustration comes up because I was still trying to understand something which can't be understood and which is not something but nevertheless there like in deep sleep.

How to find out what is beyond thinking by thinking??? It only creates more thoughts/trouble/stories/veils.....
It's a complete deadlock which caused frustration again and again which is not a bad thing. What is to understand? To stop taking thoughts so important?!
What is stating that? I don't know.......

Regards,
Susanne

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Alexw
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Re: I would like to offer my help for people

Postby Alexw » Tue Aug 04, 2015 10:08 am

Hi Susanne,
How to find out what is beyond thinking by thinking??? It only creates more thoughts/trouble/stories/veils.....
It's a complete deadlock which caused frustration again and again which is not a bad thing. What is to understand? To stop taking thoughts so important?!
Yes, using thought to figure out what is beyond it, is a bit like using a hammer to screw in a lightbulb, isn't it? The problem is that thought won't accept that there is something it can't grasp and thus projects all these ideas of how it would or should be like... Look at traditions like Zen and the Koan practice, no matter what answer you have it is always wrong, there is no logical conclusion, is there? As long as you think you have found the answer it will always be rejected.
So, what is there to understand? Yes, that thought is not so important, that it is not always right, that even the basis of our existence, the separate self, is just a thought structure etc etc... And... maybe this is enough? Maybe the understanding itself will change you? I am sure it already has, and the more you honestly look and see how thought works the less you will be bothered by it.
Look at how this structure was built. Have you been born with it or did you learn to be you? Is this "you" separate from all the knowledge that you have or is it one and the same?
"What did I want?"
Clarity and the truth who am I.
What if this is not possible? What if all the clarity and truth are for thought only and the concepts of truth or clarity have absolutely no meaning beyond it?

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Susanne
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Re: I would like to offer my help for people

Postby Susanne » Wed Aug 05, 2015 11:31 am

Hi Alex,
"Have you been born with it or did you learn to be you? Is this "you" separate from all the knowledge that you have or is it one and the same?"
Yes I did learn to be "me", I wasn't born with it. This learned "me" is one and the same with all the knowledge. That is very clear now. Thank you, Alex.
"What if this is not possible? What if all the clarity and truth are for thought only and the concepts of truth or clarity have absolutely no meaning beyond it?"
That is a big relief, no more conclusions, no more speculation, no more running from one concept to the next,.....it is the end of searching.

Kind regards,
Susanne


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