Sum Up from Guiding

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Matthew P
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Sum Up from Guiding

Postby Matthew P » Wed Jul 29, 2015 9:43 am

Hi, my label is Matthew.

How did you find Liberation Unleashed?: Through a friend.

I’ve done 10 years of Landmark seminars on and off however didn't 'get' for myself their distinctions 'the superstition 'I' / the 'I' is bankrupt', although I got that I'm not my thoughts and feelings.

I've read and enjoyed Jed McKenna’s books. And I subsequently learnt from Gateless Gatecrashers how to directly look, so can discover everything myself now.

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Ilona
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Re: Sum Up from Guiding

Postby Ilona » Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:44 am

hi Matthew,

very glad to see you here.
can you describe, where you are, what happened and how you see yourself now..

sending love.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com

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Matthew P
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Re: Sum Up from Guiding

Postby Matthew P » Thu Jul 30, 2015 10:12 pm

Hi Ilona,

Happy to see you here too, and love received.

"can you describe, where you are, what happened and how you see yourself now.."

Literal answer:
No, “I” can’t describe any of those things as “I” exists only as a thought with no ability to describe things.

Conventional Use Of ‘You’ / ‘I’ Answers:
Where am I?
It appears I'm at a desk, on a chair, in a room that’s in a house that sits on Planet Earth.

What Happened?
You and I engaged in direct looking question and answer guiding and after one of your questions I saw that I had collapsed the I thought with other thoughts, feelings and experiences. There was a hidden assumption that the I thought had those things. So there was no distinction between an experience, feeling or thought happening and the I thought.
I suddenly distinguished/saw the I thought as a stand-alone thought.
I then distinguished that the I thought is a distinct thought with no inherent characteristics. Previously I had collapsed thoughts about the I thought with the I thought. E.g. “I am clever.” “I am silly sometimes.” These thoughts gave the I thought 'character' and therefore 'entityness'.
And surprisingly, there was no image of this “I” thought when I looked. The best I got was a cartoon genie coming out of a bottle! If there was scale to thought (which there’s not), the I thought occurs to me as a tiny one, like a dot, with only enough body/mass in it to hold the word "I".
Bottom line: I saw the I thought as a distinct thought, about which there are thoughts about that thought.
And when I did, there was a few hours of joyful emptiness, appreciating, spontaneous crying and laughing, just being with people, free from concern and questions.

How I See Myself Now:
I see this body/thought system without any illusion of self. Just body functions happening. Thought happening. Feelings happening.
I still make up meaning about things, get significant, have thoughts, feelings, experiences.
Then I notice these things, sometimes laugh, and don’t let them stop me as much.
I’m better able to see what’s so, rather than story, using this powerful new action (for me), ‘looking’ to see what’s happening rather than fumbling with a fuzzy concept.
I notice the widespread use of concepts in mine and others language, and how they impede me/people from seeing, being with, and dealing with what’s happening. So I practice translating conceptual language into ‘life as lived’ language.

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Ilona
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Re: Sum Up from Guiding

Postby Ilona » Sat Aug 01, 2015 7:54 am

Thank you very much for answer. Delightful.

A cartoon genie coming out of the bottle- it's a pretty good description of this I thingy, haha

Can you say with a big fat yes, that I aka separate entity is an illusion?
If so, are you ready to answer LU's final questions?

If not, is there anything else we can look at.


Sending love
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com

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Matthew P
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Re: Sum Up from Guiding

Postby Matthew P » Mon Aug 03, 2015 12:42 am

You're welcome.
I can say (or saying is happening :)) with a big fat yes, that I, aka separate entity, is an illusion.
Yes, this body/thought system is ready to answer LU's final questions.
Thanks!

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Ilona
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Re: Sum Up from Guiding

Postby Ilona » Mon Aug 03, 2015 12:30 pm

awesome, here they are :)

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Can you talk about decision, intention, free will, choice and control? What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Please answer in full, when ready.

Much love.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com

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Matthew P
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Re: Sum Up from Guiding

Postby Matthew P » Thu Aug 06, 2015 11:41 pm

Delay in response due to new post notifications unseen in junk mail. Now fixed.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No, there is no separate entity ‘self’, ‘me’, ‘I’ at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form. There never was.

A concept of a separate entity ‘self’, ‘me’, ‘I’ exists as words, in language (spoken or other e.g. sign language). However, it is only thought, not existing in physicality, that is, in distance, time and form. Just as Santa exists as a thought, and thoughts about that Santa thought.

The concept of ‘self’, ‘me’, ‘I’ is believed to exist as a separate entity by most people, however it is a false belief, an illusion.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, from your own experience.
The illusion of the separate self was the false belief that an ‘I’ ‘me’ entity existed within this body. It was mistakenly believed to be the voice in the head. However the voice is the brain firing thoughts automatically and incessantly. The I entity is a stand alone thought, about which I had numerous thoughts that gave it character (e.g. “I’m clever”), identity (e.g. “I’m a Landlord”) and abilities that it doesn’t actually have. E.g. ownership of experiences, thoughts and feelings. And control of life.

Explain in detail when the illusion of separate self starts, from your own experience.
I cannot recall when the illusion of separate self started.

I have heard it begins when I learnt language, especially the words ‘I’ ‘me’ and ‘mine’. The way language is constructed with the I at the center of most conversations, helped ingrain the thought in my brain, “I want this” “I feel sad” “I did this” “I am strong.” Then, stories get made up and believed about the I word which give it characteristics, identifying attributes and abilities including ownership and control. The thought/word/label I plus the thoughts/stories about this I created an illusionary separate entity.
Culturally, it’s just assumed and unquestioned this entity exists. It exists only in thought/language at the level of personal and agreement reality, not physical reality.

Explain in detail how the illusion of separate self works, from your own experience.

The illusion of separate self works for a number of reasons, including:
1. The word I is useful for social navigation as it labels this body/thought system, which occurs to us as the reference point for just about everything that happens.

2. Then, we make up stories about this I and believe them. E.g. Characteristics, identifying stories. These stories about the I gives ‘entityness’ to the I label.

3. Then we falsely believe that this I entity can:
1. Own experiences. E.g. “I feel hungry.”
2. Control life. E.g. “I will stop the cold air getting in by closing the window.”

4. The voice in the head is assumed to be the voice of the I so it seems logical that this separate I exists… I can hear it!

5. The separate entity I concept remains in existence because it’s generally an unexamined assumption, an unquestioned belief, cleverly hidden from view in the conventions of language.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
It feels like there’s more freedom to be. It feels good knowing how this illusion works.
The difference from before I started this dialogue is I notice the voice in the head, I judge less/accept what’s happening more often and life occurs more simple.
In the past few days, I have less sense of separation, and fear of people. Last night at ecstatic dance I truly danced freely, without concern for how ‘I’ looked.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

After considerable guidance from you, your questions had me distinguish the following two distinctions.

1.You asked, “Can you say with a big fat YES, it's clear, that I is an illusion?”
I looked and distinguished the I as a stand alone thought. Previously it had been collapsed with other thoughts, which kept it hidden. E.g. “I feel hungry.” I and hunger appeared to arise simultaneously. However, I saw that hunger was sensed first, then the I label came in and just seemed part of the experience of hunger.
The sequencing of the English language placing the I first, ““I” feel hungry” rather than “Hunger feels I” helped keep this illusion in place.
The I thought suddenly occurred to me as an after-thought, a super fast after-thought that somehow collapsed with the previous thought. Like a thief of thoughts.
I was moved by the beauty and perfection of this illusion’s cunning ability to remain undetected to me and most of humanity for thousands of years.

2. With your further guidance, I saw that I had collapsed thoughts about the I thought with the I thought.
I saw thoughts about the I thought exist, distinct from being the I thought itself. In time I saw these thoughts about the I thought were mainly:
1. Personal characteristics e.g. “I am clever”
2. Identity e.g. “I’m a son and brother.”
3. The false belief that the I thought could own an experience e.g. “I feel hungry.”
4. Control. E.g. “I can make things happen.”

5) Can you talk about decision, intention, free will, choice and control? What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

- Decisions happen. I doesn’t/can’t make decisions as there is no I entity. There is no decider.
E.g. At lunch today, a decision happened for ricotta instead of Parmesan to be used in the salad. No phantom I made that decision. Brain fired a thought “Ricotta” which is labeled a decision’. Ricotta happened!

- Intention happens but there’s no-one to have the intention. I can’t make/have an intention as an I entity doesn’t exist.
E.g. An intention exists in language to attend the farmers market on Friday. There is no separate I that spoke that intention. Voice box and mouth made sounds recognizable as words with generally accepted meanings. An I thought can’t speak.

- Free will: There is no free will because there is no-one to have it. Brain is ‘braining,’ firing thoughts automatically. Thoughts happen, apparently before we’re aware them, and usually based on what we know from the past. Body is happening. The body/brain system runs automatically. Life is happening automatically. E.g. The brain, not a phantom I, will decide what this body/thought system does tomorrow.

- Choice happens. I doesn’t choose as there is no I entity. There is no chooser.
E.g. Choice happened to focus on answering these questions today.

- Control:
1. There is no “I” that can do anything, including control anything.
2. Control is a concept that has no existence ‘out there.’ It exists only in language.
3. Life, thought or feeling happen, then we label it, and give it meaning. Often that meaning is given by the context “this ‘should be different.” If people knew everything just happens automatically, resisting what happens would occur absurd.

Life will throw up what it throws up. We are like improv comedians, always responding to what is happening. Or football players. The game (life) is happening. Creating can happen, just as a sequence of ball passes gets created by the player bodies/thoughts. Influence can happen. A player body/thought system may be naturally skilled or trained hard to play skillfully, like optimally positioning the body so it occurs as a natural choice for a team mate to pass to. Hands can call or signal for the ball to be passed to this body, but control the other players? No. Their actions have already happened and then the brain automatically has a thought/makes meaning about it. Then dealing with what life throws up can happen, or not.

- What makes things happen? Nothing that I can see. Things just happen. Life happens automatically, without a causer.

- What are you responsible for?
‘I’ as in separate entity illusion ‘I’ is not responsible for anything because there’s nothing there beside the word ‘I’ and thoughts about it. However, the belief in this separate I illusion could be responsible for much of what doesn’t work in the world.

How does it work?
Automatically!
- Life: Just happens automatically. Arises and disappears.
- Thought: Brain fires thoughts automatically. Conscious or unconscious awareness of thought happens. Action (movement), or not happens, including feelings in the body, based on those thoughts.
- Body: Something happens (e.g. fist coming suddenly to the face) and instinctual, automatic body response (movement or not) happens.

6) Anything to add?
What’s calling is to remain in the conversation of no-self, learning the most accurate words to use, and continue distinguishing things about the self.

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Ilona
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Re: Sum Up from Guiding

Postby Ilona » Mon Aug 10, 2015 10:30 pm

Thank you so much for taking time and answering fully. It was delightful to read it.
One thing I'd like to ask.
the voice is the brain firing thoughts automatically and incessantly.
How do you know that? In experience, how do you know, that there is brain firing thoughts?
Is there brain without thought and thought without brain? What is your experience of brain?

Can you expand on that.

Much love.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com

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Matthew P
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Re: Sum Up from Guiding

Postby Matthew P » Thu Aug 13, 2015 6:46 am

I do not know that “the voice is the brain firing thoughts automatically and incessantly.”

I have no experience of brain firing thoughts. I retract that statement and drop that belief. ☺

This was a thought about what happens, not experience. This thought was taken from others, with little question.

I can’t see or say from experience whether brain or thought causes the other, they both arise at once, or something else. Maybe they originate elsewhere, with the brain and body acting as a receiver or conductor? That may be an enquiry for another time.

I collapsed what I think I know about electrical activity in the brain/thoughts, with the voice… which may be like collapsing lightning and thunder.

My experience of the voice is:
- A voice is heard which seems to narrowcast in this head only.
- It’s automatic.
- It’s listened to.
- It’s mostly believed, sometimes not.
- It can be mesmerizing, distracting.
- It’s persistent.
- Movement, voluntary or not, happens externally (e.g. hand moves) or within the body (e.g. feelings) based on what it says, or not.

Is there brain without thought?
If you mean a brain with no thought happening, then yes, it appears there can be brain without thought. I assume I have a brain, and I have experienced ‘no thought’.

Is there thought without brain?
If you mean can this (my) body/thought system have thought without the physical brain… I don’t know. I can’t recall having an experience of thought without brain.

What is your experience of brain?
My experience of brain is a heaviness sensation from thinking about these questions.
This type of sensation is the only experience of brain I can recall at the moment. I.e. When I feel stressed or I’ve been thinking complex (multiple, ‘deep’ or challenging) thoughts and brain seems to throb or feel sore (“my head hurts”), or I have a ‘head’ ache.
I assume these sensations come from the brain because that’s where it feels like it coming from.

This brain/thought relationship enquiry has helped me loosen beliefs about brain and thought.
Also, having said something I believed but isn't necessarily true when I was trying very hard to only speak what was seen has me wonder the extent to which I speak falsehoods/unquestioned assumptions, without awareness. Thanks!

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Ilona
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Re: Sum Up from Guiding

Postby Ilona » Fri Aug 14, 2015 7:54 am

Good work! And yes, question everything. The exploration, deconstruction has only just started.

Does heavy sensation from thinking assumes the thinker? Is brain the thinker?

How would you answer that?


Also, can you tell me, how is everything going over last few days, what are you noticing, is there any change in usual patterns? What hasn't changed at all?


Much love.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com

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Matthew P
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Re: Sum Up from Guiding

Postby Matthew P » Sun Aug 16, 2015 9:59 pm

The heavy sensation from thinking does not assume the thinker. The brain is not the thinker. There is no thinker. Thoughts are happening.
There is an assumption of the brain working hard to understand something and get an answer.

Everything is going well over the last few days.
Lot of observation. I notice the extent of voice in the head more.
There is greater acceptance of what happens.
Life seems mostly simple and clear from this viewpoint, so when others speak their opinions, dramas etc, it gets boring quickly. Soap operas are not of interest. And I get that humans are humaning.

I’ve had many moments of deep gratitude for this life, spontaneous sobbing at the beauty and perfection of it all. Connecting with random babies, dogs and cats, as if we're standing from the same view point.
Moments of seeing the beauty of women without story of “She’s hot / She’s not”.
Just being with people, and noticing how afraid many people are to be with another.

That's all I’ve noticed in change of usual patterns.
What hasn’t changed is body (it's still here), thoughts happening, feelings happening and life happening.

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Ilona
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Re: Sum Up from Guiding

Postby Ilona » Thu Aug 20, 2015 7:50 am

Dear Matthew.
Thank you for answer. I have no more questions for you regarding no self thingy. Welcome home!
And yes, plenty to explore, plenty to deconstruct and see in new light.
I invited you to Facebook groups to join community.

Much love your way!
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com


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