spacious sky requesting support

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spaciousness
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spacious sky requesting support

Postby spaciousness » Fri Jul 17, 2015 7:56 pm

I introduced my nephew to the concepts of non duality, spaciousness etc. and he connected to liberation unleashed and he shared how much benefit he is benefiting from it, so here "i" am....
A lifelong journey of unfolding, searching for what is ultimate healing. the latest journey has been through Garchen Rinpoche and his introduction to mahamudra and dzogchen teachings. Most recently "spaciousness" by keith dowman showed up and "i" resonated with that.

expectation? hmmmmm.....for liberation to be unleashed!

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Xain
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Re: spacious sky requesting support

Postby Xain » Sun Jul 19, 2015 10:48 am

Hello Spaciousness Sky (what shall I call you?)

Welcome to the Liberation Unleashed Forum.
I introduced my nephew to the concepts of non duality, spaciousness etc. and he connected to liberation unleashed and he shared how much benefit he is benefiting from it, so here "i" am....
Great! (Incidentally, feel free to use normal language - no need to quote I).
A lifelong journey of unfolding, searching for what is ultimate healing. the latest journey has been through Garchen Rinpoche and his introduction to mahamudra and dzogchen teachings.
I am vaguely familiar with this branch of Buddhism and the emptiness teachings.
Expectation? hmmmmm.....for liberation to be unleashed!
:-) Of course.
But let's be open here.

What exactly is wanted?
What expectations do you have about this process (and what may be achieved).
What would it mean for you?
What worries or concerns do you have (if any)?

Best wishes to you
Xain ♥

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spaciousness
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Re: spacious sky requesting support

Postby spaciousness » Mon Jul 20, 2015 12:14 am

thank you for your questions.....

what exactly is wanted...to truly experience and be the knowing of not being the i. i know it, i experience the oneness, the awareness that i am not the i that we think we regularly, especially when i am in nature, with animals or by myself, but then caught up in the illusion of separateness and that i am just me at other times still...i dance between the oneness and not being aware of it..
i am not aware of expectations and what may be achieved...just not sure if one is aware of not being the i, can come and go...being totally honest, i guess i would like to achieve a more lightness of being, totally aware of not being the separate i.
it would mean being continuously aware of no separation and with that not reacting sometimes from the illusion of separation and with that from fear ....
i have worries and concerns about not having sufficient funds for retirement in the future and that i will lose them...that is my greatest fear at this time....i have sufficient funds if i live simply and do not lose them in even safe investments...
when i am aware of being one with all, no i, i find myself in great joy being of benefit to all that is in all its beauty and simplicity. when i fall back into separateness, i worry about being taken advantage of by others, being persecuted,
thank you for your guidance and questions.
blessings from a kindred spirit,
allen

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spaciousness
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Re: spacious sky requesting support

Postby spaciousness » Mon Jul 20, 2015 1:13 am

hi xain: i would also like to be less judgmental of others and less reactive when others act in a way that i do not perceive as for the benefit of all beings, but rather based on greed and fear. yet, i realize that those reactions are reflections of part of me as well. in moments, i am aware that there is no me, that this is all energies interacting....yet at other times i am aware of being caught in the illusion of self vs. other....
when asking what i want....i would like to know for sure all the time in the deepest sense of awareness that there is no me, there is no i, that there is no separation, there is no self vs. other....and to respond from that awareness all the time....to be liberated and unleashed from the illusion of self vs. other....thank you again Xain....

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Xain
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Re: spacious sky requesting support

Postby Xain » Mon Jul 20, 2015 9:57 am

Hi Allen

The realisation we would be aiming for is to realise that there is no separate self. To realise that every case of 'I' is just based on unexamined ideas, beliefs and thoughts. It is never a real 'thing'.
This would mean to realise there never was a 'real I'. Ever. Nor will ever be.
To truly experience and be the knowing of not being the I
Ok, well this is possible to realise. Paradoxically, it would be realised that no real 'I' ever realised anything.
I experience the oneness.
It would mean being continuously aware of no separation.
The guidance has nothing to do with 'oneness' as such. Notice that 'I want to experience oneness' is an expectation for a self, for an 'I'. The guidance is nothing to do with special experiences or states, temporary or permanent. It is simply to realise that there is no inherently existing 'I'.
When i am aware of being one with all, no i, i find myself in great joy
I am aware that there is no me
If there is no 'I', what 'I' is aware of being something or of experiencing joy?
(This isn't a guiding question, I am just getting you to think about what is being said).
The guidance isn't about any type of joy, feeling or experience.

I would ask you to put aside all expectations other than just to realise there is no 'I'. That 'I' is always just the content of thoughts and nothing that can be found as really existing.

I would also ask you to put aside all previous non-dual teaching and thoughts about awareness etc, and approach this very simply from honest basic beliefs.

Have a look at these guidelines which will assist us both.

1. Please post at least once a day, if you cannot post, or need more time, let me know.
2. Be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.
3. Answer from direct personal experience only (we can go into this in more depth later if needed).
4. Read the disclaimer on the Liberation Unleashed main site -> http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

It is useful to use the 'Quote' button as I have to quote my replies - It will make the conversation easier.
A guide for it's use can be found here: http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660

Let me know if you have anything else you would like to mention or questions you may have, and we can begin if you would like.

Xain ♥

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spaciousness
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Re: spacious sky requesting support

Postby spaciousness » Mon Jul 20, 2015 10:09 pm

Hi Allen

The realisation we would be aiming for is to realise that there is no separate self. To realise that every case of 'I' is just based on unexamined ideas, beliefs and thoughts. It is never a real 'thing'.
This would mean to realise there never was a 'real I'. Ever. Nor will ever be.
To truly experience and be the knowing of not being the I
Ok, well this is possible to realise. Paradoxically, it would be realised that no real 'I' ever realised anything.
I experience the oneness.
It would mean being continuously aware of no separation.
The guidance has nothing to do with 'oneness' as such. Notice that 'I want to experience oneness' is an expectation for a self, for an 'I'. The guidance is nothing to do with special experiences or states, temporary or permanent. It is simply to realise that there is no inherently existing 'I'.
When i am aware of being one with all, no i, i find myself in great joy
I am aware that there is no me
If there is no 'I', what 'I' is aware of being something or of experiencing joy?
(This isn't a guiding question, I am just getting you to think about what is being said).
The guidance isn't about any type of joy, feeling or experience.

I would ask you to put aside all expectations other than just to realise there is no 'I'. That 'I' is always just the content of thoughts and nothing that can be found as really existing.

I would also ask you to put aside all previous non-dual teaching and thoughts about awareness etc, and approach this very simply from honest basic beliefs.

Have a look at these guidelines which will assist us both.

1. Please post at least once a day, if you cannot post, or need more time, let me know.
2. Be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.
3. Answer from direct personal experience only (we can go into this in more depth later if needed).
4. Read the disclaimer on the Liberation Unleashed main site -> http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

It is useful to use the 'Quote' button as I have to quote my replies - It will make the conversation easier.
A guide for it's use can be found here: http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660

Let me know if you have anything else you would like to mention or questions you may have, and we can begin if you would like.

Xain ♥

hi Xain:

ok....being totally brutally honest...i simply wonder is this another game of words....coming from "I" vs. the "I Am"...is this just another mind trick, a word game for the mind or does it result in a real shift of awareness at the deepest level?
intellectually i truly get there is and never was an "i". that each entity is a composite of genetic predispositiions combined with mental beliefs that have programmed each one to develop labels and concepts about themselves and all that is, and to separate self from other...
yes, i will let go of previous non dual teachings and am open to experiencing what unfolds ....
as you say "I"...let go of using "I"....so what word do you suggest using instead of "I" ?
yes, i am ready to go for it....
thank you, allen

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Xain
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Re: spacious sky requesting support

Postby Xain » Mon Jul 20, 2015 11:58 pm

ok....being totally brutally honest . . .
I appreciate that - Honesty about what you expect is important.
as you say "I"...let go of using "I"....so what word do you suggest using instead of "I"
I am not suggesting to use any other word or to change the conversation in any way.
The writing on this page and use of 'I', 'me', 'you', 'them' etc are all parts of language and are the apparent passing of ideas, beliefs and thoughts in general. The conversation assumes there is a 'you' being guided by 'me'.
There may be a belief that these words, beliefs and thoughts (particularly 'I') refer to a real inherently existing 'thing' - specifically a 'person' - a separate self. The realisation offered here would be that they do not - and because of this, it would be realised that there is no inherently existing separate self . . . and never was or will be in the future.
Does it result in a real shift of awareness at the deepest level?
No, this is not about a shift of awareness.

You seem to have a few expectations about what this is all about.
May I ask that you have a look at the FAQ for further information which may assist you - In particular the section about 'What LU is not'.
The page here -> http://liberationunleashed.com/faq/

Please mull through the information here and let me know if you wish to continue.
This guidance may not be for you if you are looking for some-sort of shift, new way of experiencing life, new state of being or any form of improvement. Just being honest with you here as you are with me.
There is little point continuing with this if you have very specific ideas about what you want to achieve, and it would be wrong of me not to be honest with you about what can be achieved through my guidance.

Xain ♥

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spaciousness
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Re: spacious sky requesting support

Postby spaciousness » Tue Jul 21, 2015 1:59 am

thank you cain:
i do not have specific sort of shift...was just wondering...not sure what to expect....i guess at first i felt no expectations, then was realizing i did have some desires from it...simply asking....
i read the what lu is not again and understand...
where it states this is where lu comes in...
This is where LU comes in. We invite people to get rid of all distractions for a moment and direct the gaze at this assumed self- at the you. A period of direct and honest looking at the assumed self will reveal a simple, amazing and directly observable fact – there is no self, there has never been one. Once this is truly seen, not just accepted as a theoretical possibility but actually seen to be the case, the belief in a self (which is all “the self” ever was) gradually (or in some cases, dramatically) falls away. Our natural state remains; pure being, devoid of conceptual confusion, ultimately beyond description.
this is what i would like to see, not just accept as a theoretical possibility....

This awakening from the illusion of self is what we call liberation and this is what i am open to seeing here. if you do not think this is for me, i am not sure how to respond to that honestly....

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Re: spacious sky requesting support

Postby JonathanR » Wed Jul 22, 2015 11:01 am

Hello Allen,

My name is Jon and I am a guide here at LU. I have answered a request from Xain and am now offering to guide you. Do you accept? If so I will not go through the formalities again. I have read your conversation with Xain so far and am familiar with the contents. For now I will assume that you wish to proceed.

You said:
Once this is truly seen, not just accepted as a theoretical possibility but actually seen to be the case, the belief in a self (which is all “the self” ever was) gradually (or in some cases, dramatically) falls away. Our natural state remains; pure being, devoid of conceptual confusion, ultimately beyond description.
this is what i would like to see, not just accept as a theoretical possibility....
And the seeing that there is no self is not theoretical. However it can seem remarkably simple and sometimes, depending on the magnitude of the expectation for fireworks, rather disappointing. That is why we look at expectations at the outset. Are you expecting an experience of some sort?

Seeing through the illusion of 'self' is subtle and often people look right past it becasue they are eager to get some kind of big insight or experience. That just wastes time.

Now, if I say 'there is no 'I' or 'self'. Never has been, never will be, what comes up?


Regards,

Jon

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spaciousness
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Re: spacious sky requesting support

Postby spaciousness » Wed Jul 22, 2015 4:45 pm

Thank you for your email Jon. Yes, since my last LU check in and sensing frustration from Xain, i have spent time really looking at that "there is no I or self, which i have done in the past as well a number of times...and looked at what was coming up for me....what comes up is that i get it....yet, i feel like that "getting it" comes and goes and from what i read in the gate less gatecrashers, once you get it, you have it....so i question what i am not getting that i sense it comes and goes. it seems to return when there is fear or anxiety about the future or current problems.
In the past, when the awareness that there is no i or self is present, the "cosmic joke" or "cosmic chuckle" shows up and i shake my head and get it...so the question is....what am i missing if the belief in the i still shows up on and off?
thank you for your guidance on this. truly appreciated.

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Re: spacious sky requesting support

Postby JonathanR » Wed Jul 22, 2015 8:42 pm

Hi Allen,

I am really pleased that you have decided to go for it.
..what comes up is that i get it...
That's great. Look again. If this 'no self' is 'got', who or what is doing the 'getting?
yet, i feel like that "getting it" comes and goes ... it seems to return when there is fear or anxiety about the future or current problems..what am i missing if the belief in the i still shows up on and off.
This is interesting. Let's look at it directly.

Where, exactly, does 'the future' exist? This is not a question that should be answered by thinking about it. Instead, examine experience right now, this moment. Maybe sitting in an chair, looking at this screen? Right here and now, where is 'future'?

Warm regards,

Jon

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spaciousness
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Re: spacious sky requesting support

Postby spaciousness » Wed Jul 22, 2015 10:01 pm

Hi Allen,

I am really pleased that you have decided to go for it.
..what comes up is that i get it...
That's great. Look again. If this 'no self' is 'got', who or what is doing the 'getting?

got it!
yet, i feel like that "getting it" comes and goes ... it seems to return when there is fear or anxiety about the future or current problems..what am i missing if the belief in the i still shows up on and off.
This is interesting. Let's look at it directly.

Where, exactly, does 'the future' exist? This is not a question that should be answered by thinking about it. Instead, examine experience right now, this moment. Maybe sitting in an chair, looking at this screen? Right here and now, where is 'future'?

yes, future is all in the head, thoughts....does not really exit.
when "no self" is aware, the pure awareness is present? is that right?
thank you and warm regards, allen

Warm regards,

Jon

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JonathanR
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Re: spacious sky requesting support

Postby JonathanR » Thu Jul 23, 2015 12:19 am

Hi Allen,

Just a note. You don't need to quote everything. Please don't 'bulk quote' as it tends to create confusion. Only quote the line or two preceeding a reply you wish to make. There may be more than one of these but the main thing is not to quote whole tranches of conversation.
yes, future is all in the head, thoughts....does not really exit.
when "no self" is aware, the pure awareness is present? is that right?
thank you and warm regards, allen
It's good to notice this. Yes. Thoughts may appear that seem to relate to a future and yet that future is not here, now, is it? And isn't the same true for every current moment? How about 'past'? Sometimes it can be trickier to see this for what it is because there is the thought 'it has happened' but is there ever a 'past'? In this moment does 'past' 'exist'?
when "no self" is aware, the pure awareness is present? is that right?
Hmm. No. Absolutely not. This is a very confused notion that may come from some teachers.

There is no 'thing' or 'experience' of 'no self'. 'No self' is not an experience, a state of mind. We do encourage people to look for 'self' and often it is realised that no self can be found, anywhere in experience. There simply is no 'self', period. It's simply the way things are and always have been. It may be 'seen' but not experienced. It's possible to notice that no 'self' exists, but that's all. It really isn't a thing or an experience. It's an absence.

How does that land?

Jon

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spaciousness
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Re: spacious sky requesting support

Postby spaciousness » Thu Jul 23, 2015 1:18 am

yes, to all that you have shared....yes...no past exists....just thoughts of a past...
each current moment...yes, by the time there is a thought about it, it has passed as well...
yes, "no self" is not a thing or an experience...it is an absence...got it...
all that lands well. thank you, allen

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JonathanR
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Re: spacious sky requesting support

Postby JonathanR » Thu Jul 23, 2015 9:10 am

Hi Allen
yes, "no self" is not a thing or an experience...it is an absence...got it...
all that lands well. thank you, allen
But did my satement come as some surprise? Given that you thought 'no self' was some state or entity that could be 'aware'? Doesn't my view contradict yours in rather a big way? What changed for you to accept what I say about this?

But it just isn't good enough to simply accept my insistence, because it might not be true. The important thing is for you to investigate, to see for yourself if what I say has any truth. Is there really no 'self'? Are you ready to do this?



Best wishes,

Jon


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