Just making sure "I" got it...

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CaptWill
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Needing a little guidance.

Postby CaptWill » Thu Jan 29, 2015 9:21 am

Hi, I'm Will. After years of meditation, reading countless books, and feeling more and more lost, I think I'm starting to see that this "self" is not real. Things are happening, there is an awareness of things happening, but the ultimate there is nothing we can point to and say "that's it, that's me." I've been in this state, off and on, for the last few days. I'm noticing things aren't as important as they used to be. I feel something within me letting go. I understand this intellectually, but it hasn't quite clicked into place, apart from the occasional glimpse into no-self.

Well, you're the experts. How about I quit talking and start listening, and you do your thing, and we'll see how it goes.

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ElPortal
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Re: Needing a little guidance.

Postby ElPortal » Thu Jan 29, 2015 11:41 am

Hi Will,

Welcome to LU. There aren't any experts here to giude you, but I am can accompany you and point where to look if you like.

Before starting, I'd like to ask you to watch the introductory videos and read the disclaimer on the home page if you haven't already and agree to some standard ground rules:

1. Post at least once every second day, even if only to say, "still here!" If you can't for some reason, just let me know.
2. There is no teacher here; all I do is point. You look, until clear seeing happens.
3. Look deeply and honestly, then respond with 100% honesty. There are no wrong or right answers.
4. Respond as simply and directly as possible from immediate personal experience only (felt senses and observed thoughts). Avoid long-winded analytical and philosophical and stream-of-consciousness answers which may even hinder progress.
5. Please put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation, even leaving aside other people's LU threads. Really put all your attention into looking for yourself into this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.

If you could confirm you have seen all the above, agree to them, and would still like to be guided - then we'll begin.

Practical points about posting in this forum.

1. When clicking 'Post Reply' at the bottom of the page you get the editor where you can type an answer. You can also preview the answer before it is posted. Experiment as much as needed. Nothing gets posted unless the 'Submit' button is clicked.
2. The forum can log you out without warning. If you're typing a post directly in the edit box here, and you get logged out before you click Submit, your words can get lost. There are two ways to avoid this. One, use the Preview button frequently. That will keep you logged in. Or two, type your responses in a separate program like Notepad first, then copy and paste them into the forum. (But that way you don't get to use the quote function and have to use BBCode to highlight quotes.)
3. Please learn to use the 'Quote' facility, it's a very useful tool (there is a post about this at the top of the 'Gate' forum).
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5. It would be handy to know which time zone you are in. I am in France: Central European Time (= GMT+1).


Cheers


Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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CaptWill
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Re: Needing a little guidance.

Postby CaptWill » Thu Jan 29, 2015 12:35 pm

Hi Mark,

I'll do my best. Ready when you are.

Will

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ElPortal
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Re: Needing a little guidance.

Postby ElPortal » Thu Jan 29, 2015 1:22 pm

Hi Will,

Ok, first of all will you tell me what expectations you have of liberation/seeing through the illusion? How should it feel and what should be different from how it all is right now? Consider for a while and then answer not from the rational thinking but from whatever comes up in this moment.

Then, when you have considered that, please tell me what comes up now - feelings, bodily sensations - when it is read that none of those expectations (whatever you came up with) may be realised, that Life will just do whatever it does.

Cheers

Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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CaptWill
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Re: Needing a little guidance.

Postby CaptWill » Thu Jan 29, 2015 10:34 pm

I expect that upon liberation, I'll feel the flow of things, God, the Universe, whatever you want to call it. I'll feel my fears fall away as the shadows that they are, and come to realize that everything is functioning as perfectly as it should. I will let go of the "little self" of illusion and surrender to the "Higher Self" of existence, and stop striving for control.

The idea that these things won't happen fills me with feelings of doubt, fear, and anxiety. There is a worry that I may be pulled into full-on nihilism. There is also a worry that this won't be the beginning of spiritual awakening, but the end of it.

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ElPortal
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Re: Needing a little guidance.

Postby ElPortal » Fri Jan 30, 2015 7:44 am

Hi Will

Thanks for that honesty. These fears and worries are a normal reaction at this stage. Can this sense of resistance be embraced, rather than resisted? Are you up for that?

Considering the same question again...
please tell me what comes up now - feelings, bodily sensations - when it is read that none of those expectations (whatever you came up with) may be realised, that Life will just do whatever it does.
when you say:-
The idea that these things won't happen fills me with feelings of doubt, fear, and anxiety. There is a worry that I may be pulled into full-on nihilism. There is also a worry that this won't be the beginning of spiritual awakening, but the end of it
...now please report back the actual feelings - as in bodily sensations - that come up. Get quiet and comfortable, then
1. Notice the stories (as you reported before) but then the sensations behind the explanations and stories.
2. Please notice these in detail, their location, quality, size and shape, any movement. Stay with them, even welcome them as though they are a little child come for attention.
3. Be open to whether they have something to show you (and listen). If not that's fine; if they have, then take note.
4. Notice them stay as long as they stay, go when they move on.

Please report back on each stage of this.

Cheers

Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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CaptWill
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Re: Needing a little guidance.

Postby CaptWill » Fri Jan 30, 2015 8:00 am

This is exactly what I do when a thought or emotion arises during meditation. I note everything around the thought, the feeling in my stomach, the pattern of my breath, not pushing them away, but allowing them to stay or go as they will.

So, yeah, fear is like any other thought. Nothing of real substance unless attention is paid to it.

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ElPortal
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Re: Needing a little guidance.

Postby ElPortal » Fri Jan 30, 2015 8:20 am

Ok so please report back on all the steps when you have done it.

Cheers

Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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CaptWill
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Re: Needing a little guidance.

Postby CaptWill » Fri Jan 30, 2015 8:45 am

I'm finished. I completed all the steps with the arrival and falling away of each thought.

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ElPortal
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Re: Needing a little guidance.

Postby ElPortal » Fri Jan 30, 2015 11:22 am

Hi Will,
I completed all the steps with the arrival and falling away of each thought.
OK so take time and please describe to me what happened with each step. Not just with the thoughts but with the energies/sensations associated with the worries, fears, anxieties which arose.

This is not an intellectual, or information-sharing dialogue, (that could only ever produce intellectual, rational results). It's energetic, dealing with the sensations of the moment, ok?


Cheers

Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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CaptWill
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Re: Needing a little guidance.

Postby CaptWill » Fri Jan 30, 2015 11:30 am

As I noticed the thoughts/feelings arise, I noticed that when I really looked, every one was attached to a story about "me." If they were thoughts/feelings of fear, I would feel a tightening of my stomach. If they were thoughts/feelings of anger, I would feel a rushing sensation in my chest. Instead of turning away from these thoughts, or trying to push them away, I gave them space to do their thing without giving them any more energy, which immediately caused a cessation of the sensations in my body. Slowly, they faded away, my body relaxed, and I was left in the still presence of... thingy. I call it "thingy" because it's at the center of my being, beneath all the stories and facades, it's an empty-fullness, and words fail to describe it. Thingy. I think it may be the elusive "higher self", "Being," "consciousness," or whatever label whomever writing the books decided to call it. It's beyond words.

That's pretty much everything.

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ElPortal
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Re: Needing a little guidance.

Postby ElPortal » Sat Jan 31, 2015 11:29 am

Hi Will

Hehe, 'thingy': love it!!

A. This process is not about a guide giving some secret key or combination (3 to the right, click- 9 to the left, click- 1 to the right, click), which when unlocked produces a magic starburst of everlasting bliss, thus removing us from the mundanity of everyday life experience. It's rather about taking time to look, ponder, question and unpeel ALL unquestioned beliefs, all unexamined concepts, teachings, lingo, ideas, assumptions: ALL - until all that is left is the raw, alive experience of this moment. It's all about looking. Are you up for this?

B. When it is asked 'let me know what comes up' (and this will probably be asked often), yes there may be explanations and stories which come up. Sure, identify those briefly, along any emotions. But what is really being asked is what is coming up NOW in sensations. Just describe as fully as possible the bodily sensations, any movement etc (as in the points 1-4 in my first post of yesterday). The mind likes to keep a firm hold on proceedings, keep showing us what it knows etc, but this is actually IRRELEVANT. We are looking honestly at the FEELINGS, the NOW SENSATIONS which present, ok?
whatever label whomever writing the books decided to call it. It's beyond words.
C. Are you willing to question the authority of any and all of those books, authors, teachers, and terminology? Throw them all out if necessary? (Again, not just the answer please, but report any sensations which come up when these questions are read).

D. Now I would like you to take a look through the following list of expectations which can arise about what liberation 'should be like'!. It's from the LU FAQ on the home page:-
Throughout the years our many guides have discovered that one of the major obstacles to the direct, clear seeing of what is already magnificently the case is a thick layer of expectations and narrative about a self’s journey towards enlightenment, built up by years and years of seeking. Getting these expectations out in the open and out of the way is an important first step. Below is a list explaining what the LU process is not:

This is not a way to escape your daily life.

This is not about gaining something extra, becoming something special.

This is not about cultivating an altered state of consciousness.

This isn’t a trick of the mind, or twisting the mind into believing certain thoughts.

This is not about gaining a particular bit of knowledge.

This is not about having a certain thought or sequence of thoughts.

This is not about becoming a holy, good, moral or better person.

This is not a belief, religion, or a philosophy, it not magical or mystical.

This is not going to lead you to eternal peace and happiness, it is not about happiness.

This is not about freedom from emotions and intense feelings.

This is not about getting rid of self, ego, I.

This is not a solution to problems in relationships.

This is not a way to get free of depression or other diseases.

This is not about stopping thoughts, changing thoughts, getting rid of thoughts.

This is not a way to make the story of you disappear.

This is not about convincing you of anything.

This is not something that will lead to accumulation of money or things.

This is not a self improvement program.


As you consider each statement on the list, please note which of those expectations produce any reaction (concentrating on any physical sensations). Describe it, and report back with your list.

Please, no rushed responses: give this some space.

(You'll notice that different questions and exercises will often be numbered or lettered. This is simply to ensure that they all receive an answer and to help us to refer easily to each issue at hand.)

Cheers

Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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CaptWill
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Re: Needing a little guidance.

Postby CaptWill » Sat Jan 31, 2015 11:59 am

Dear Mark,

I'm getting a feeling that this isn't right for me, at least not for now. Thanks for your time.

Peace,
Will

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ElPortal
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Re: Needing a little guidance.

Postby ElPortal » Sat Jan 31, 2015 12:02 pm

Totally fine, Will.
Let me know if you ever feel to come back it.
Cheers
Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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CaptWill
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Just making sure "I" got it...

Postby CaptWill » Wed May 13, 2015 10:51 pm

Hi, I'm Will.

I believe I've already crashed the gate, but would like another's opinion to make sure.

Will is just story. Thoughts just happen, emotions just happen. Will is not a separate entity. There is Awareness of everything that's happening, and that Awareness is my true "self." That is the "no-thing" of which so many teachers refer. Everything arises in Awareness or Consciousness, including Will. Will is merely a unit that Awareness uses to experience forms that arise in Itself. Will is merely a point of reference.

This is all very hard to put into words, but I will do my best. I would appreciate any insight.

Thanks.


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