enlightenment lost

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Arahant
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enlightenment lost

Postby Arahant » Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:50 am

Hello,
I have been on the path of enlightenment for three years, and in that time I have experienced many things that could be referred to as mystical.

First I think it is important to mention that I have actively practiced meditation for many years, picking up a free form meditation as a child without any real guidance. Until only a few years ago, I had no notion of enlightenment, and had no idea what a meditative lifestyle would draw out of me. Meditation once helped me to cope with a rough lifestyle, and has all but cured my harsh temper. Later it became a method to expand my consciousness, which eventually led to my researching enlightenment. Needless to say, I was from that point on utterly enthralled by the concept of my enlightenment, and it quickly became the focal point of my life. Whatever activity I was engaged in, this was always playing in the back of my mind.

Once I finished high school, I moved straight into college, hoping to make something of my life. For a time I lived in a college dormitory, and I can say with confidence that that was the high point of my life. My days were filled to the brink with fun and every kind of thrill, and my spiritual life also took a turn. Meditation was more easily accessed, and the insights gained thereof came in tidal waves. I also had many opportunities to experiment with psychedelics, which though my friend took along side me recreationally, I used as a launch pad for consciousness expansion.

One night after a mind shatteringly (psychedelically induced) vivid dream, I began to feel a strange sensation. The world around me seemed to lack any substance.I felt as if I could push down the walls of my dorm room with the slightest shove, ending the illusion once and for all. Along with this came a startling alteration of my perceptions, and everything that I saw took on a new level of visual intensity - especially trees, plants, clouds, and all things natural. I felt as if I was on the verge of a gateway into another world, one foot in, and the other still behind me. Soon all aspects of my perception were intensified, and though I found much beauty in this, it brought along with it a dark side. I began to feel more powerfully the presence of other people, the slightest glance in my direction felt like a pillar of fire threatening my very being. The smallest sounds suddenly became cataclysms, racking every nerve in my body. And so this dreadful anxiety overtook my life, stamping out my previously ultra mellow composure. Soon I could no longer sit through a single lecture without being devastated, and I dropped all of my classes for the next semester, and left my aspirations behind.

I began a quiet lifestyle, sticking close only to my family, and filling my hours with attempted relaxation, a lot of spiritual and philosophical research, and long meditative sessions. At the end of each day I would stay up till early hours looking for a key to enlightenment. And then it found me. Reading the writings of a freelance blogger and interweb guru, I was abruptly and violently skyrocketed into heavenly bliss, all of my boundaries melted away, along with my identity. I became both the observer and the observed, I was not looking at the world, the world was looking into itself. Instantly all of my fears, tension, and anxiety vanished, leaving in their wake an adrenaline filled hyper euphoric bliss, enhancing my already heightened perceptions to glorious new levels. Life then opened itself up to me, and I was free.

For months this was my reality, and it was absolutely perfect. In the afterglow of this beautiful experience, I was too entranced by my expedient awakening to notice that it was slowly fading. In time, I finally hit back to ground level - hard. All of my anxieties came back threefold. My tensions reached a hellish new stage, and my hypersensitivity was extended by miles. Since my touch down back to earth, all of this has steeply inclined, becoming more overwhelming every day. At times I have found shadows of that ultimate bliss, in nature and I'm the dark hours when I am alone. Now a return to enlightenment is not only the focal point of my life, it encompasses my every thought. I have completely lost interest in mundane pleasures presented by society. Enlightenment has become my only desire.

I apologize deeply for my very lengthy post, but I felt that I should be thorough so as to fully illustrate my situation. Hopefully you find this to at least be an interesting read. I know now that my initial experience may not be the "full thing" but rather an advanced satori analogue. What I seek now is to fully realize my bodhi nature and ascend fully into the throes of nirvana. I give my highest gratitude to anybody who has the patience to help me work through my self provoked nightmare, as there could surely be no thing great enough that I could give as a show of thanks.

Thank you.

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Re: enlightenment lost

Postby Petrus » Fri Feb 06, 2015 5:30 am

Hi Arahant,

I could be your guide if you want.

The main thing we do here is pointing to Direct Experience, so we are going to look at what IS.
The guiding will help you to see through the illusion of a separate self.
Acually that is pretty much it. Is that what you are seeking?

Here are some groundrules:
1. Write from experience, not speculation.
2. Be 100% honest. So a wrong honest answer is better than a good answer you lied about.
3. Post regularly !
4. Put aside all other teachings (satsangs!), philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation.
5. Read the disclaimer on the Liberation Unleashed main site -> http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/
6. Could you learn the quote function? viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

If you confirm you have read the above we can start.

I am Dutch but in the Western Indonesian Timezone (GMT+8), what is yours?

It is important to be aware of your expectations about liberation.
Many people expect miracles: no more problems, constant bliss, a better life, etc.


What are your expectations for seeing through the illusion of the separate self?
How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
Please answer these questions in detail. No expectation is too small to ignore.

Warm regards Petrus

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Re: enlightenment lost

Postby Arahant » Fri Feb 06, 2015 6:27 am

Hi, thanks for taking the time to reply.
The main thing we do here is pointing to Direct Experience, so we are going to look at what IS.
The guiding will help you to see through the illusion of a separate self.
Acually that is pretty much it. Is that what you are seeking?
Yes, I seek to deepen my understanding of what is
Here are some groundrules:
1. Write from experience, not speculation.
2. Be 100% honest. So a wrong honest answer is better than a good answer you lied about.
3. Post regularly !
4. Put aside all other teachings (satsangs!), philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation.
5. Read the disclaimer on the Liberation Unleashed main site -> http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/
6. Could you learn the quote function? viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660
All is well.
I am Dutch but in the Western Indonesian Timezone (GMT+8), what is yours?
I live in Colorado and my time zone is Mountain Standard Time (GMT-7)
What are your expectations for seeing through the illusion of the separate self?
How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
I expect to be liberated from my ego mind, which encompasses fear, anger, hatred, and selfishness. I believe that once the illusion is broken down I will be more natural, clear minded, focussed, and open. Once the illusion is fully worked through I expect to be in a state of deep calm and indifference to the dualism of pleasure and pain. I expect to see that the thought that calls itself "i" is truly non-existent (at this point I still hold doubts) and that my true nature is unity with all that is. I expect to one again become both the observer and the observed, and to see that the two are inseparable - further, I expect this state to be firmly locked into place so as never to falter. In terms of bliss, I expect only that which will come from the relief of tension and fear, which I have held for so long. Finally, I predict that I will be more accepting of myself, others, and every situation which I come across, and to be freed from all inhibitions caused by desire, attachment, greed, self loathing, and most importantly the need to keep control.

Thank you again, this means a lot to me. I sincerely hope that this is the last step I must take that I may eliminate all obstructions to perfect finality.

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Re: enlightenment lost

Postby Petrus » Fri Feb 06, 2015 7:10 am

Hi Arahant (is that what I will call you?),

What a story you are telling!!
I like very much to hear all these stories, thats why I am a guide here I think.
And then to see underneath the stories there is the same!!

Your expectations I let be for a moment: they are not very exorbitant, but maybe later I will come back on them.

You wrote:
the thought that calls itself "i" is truly non-existent
I think this thought is very existent as a thought, but only is referring to nothing real.
Is that what you meant?
I live in Colorado and my time zone is Mountain Standard Time (GMT-7)
So we are antipodes at the moment: great!
You sleep and I answer, I sleep you answer...

You were talking about the:
Reading the writings of a freelance blogger and interweb guru
What is his name and how can I find him. I am always interested in what people say!

About your experiences:
I would like to say: experiences are experiences. They have a start and an end.
When its over you want it back (or not).
to notice that it was slowly fading
That hurted indeed, didnt it?
Spiritual experiences trigger your search, thats a good thing maybe. So, here you are!

Let us start from scratch. Ok?
I have this sets with questions (only 2, I am not so creative, haha) and they (that is the answers) always (until now) reveal if and where are the issues.

So here is the first set (about the body):

With the eyes closed, sitting still, notice the other sensations: hearing, smelling, tasting, touching. With only the input from those four senses, and without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or a volume?
Is there a boundary between the body and the ground?
Can you feel where the body ends?
Can you feel your ears?

In direct experience does the body have a shape or a form?
Is there an inside or outside?
What does the body consist of in direct experience?

Do you have control over this body?
Does the body hear?
Or is there hearing?
Are you this body?

Can you locate a mind?


Warm regards, Petrus

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Re: enlightenment lost

Postby Arahant » Fri Feb 06, 2015 6:05 pm

Hi Arahant (is that what I will call you?),
Yes that is good :)
I think this thought is very existent as a thought, but only is referring to nothing real.
Is that what you meant?
Yes I see the self as a collection of past memories and future aspirations, combined with a belief system and a compendium of learned knowledge. Thusly the self is but a thought, or rather a series of thoughts.
What is his name and how can I find him. I am always interested in what people say!
He goes by the alias Meditation Guru or MG. You can find him at http://meditationguru.in . You may find his free ebooks particularly interesting.
With the eyes closed, sitting still, notice the other sensations: hearing, smelling, tasting, touching. With only the input from those four senses, and without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
There is a sensation that runs from the base of my feet to the top of my head, this I can feel. However, without the mind's interference, there is no concept of height, there is merely an invisible boundary separating what I can feel and the air around me. It also appears that my body feels longer if I focus on its individual parts in succession, yet shorter if I focus on my body as a whole.
Does the body have a weight or a volume?
No, there exists only a series of pressures weighing on my body, as if the weight is being imposed. The pressures are especially strong towards the point where I meet the ground. As for volume, I can feel clusters of sensation, some seemingly more dense than others, especially in line with areas where I feel tension and pain. There also seem to be areas which I can only barely sense, like the base of my skull and my lower back.
Is there a boundary between the body and the ground?
There is a point where my sense of a body ends, however this strangely enough coincides with the sensation of the ground, as in the two are exactly the same thing. Past that I feel only an infinitely empty space, which I cannot discern as not-me. So the sensation of ground seems to be part of my self, while I cannot say that what lies beyond that is not, only that I cannot feel it in an ordinary sense.
Can you feel where the body ends?
Upon closer examination I cannot feel where my body ends. There seems to exist a singularity or a pocket of air enveloping my body. I can feel the air on my skin, however, I also feel the air a short distance apart from my body? which is strange to me because I have never noticed this. At the point where my ability to feel should end, I feel only an infinite regression towards an indefinite point, so the boundary seems as if it is not there.
Can you feel your ears?
I can feel my inner ears, as they have irritatingly taken to ringing perpetually in these last few years. This culminates not only as a sound but also as something which I feel. I can also feel my earlobes, but only very faintly. As for the rest of my ears, there is extremely little to no sensation.
In direct experience does the body have a shape or a form?
I cannot say that it has a definite shape, as this seems to change depending on where my awareness is placed. If I focus on my body as a whole, it appears to take on a spherical or egg-like shape, though the boundaries are not clearly defined. Moreover, if I move a part of my body, it takes on a different (not?) form. This is hard to describe, but I hope that you know what I mean.

I am currently pressed for time so I will answer the other questions later, once my work day ends. This has been an interesting investigation so far, I don't think I have ever given this much attention to my senses. Thank you for your support :)

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Re: enlightenment lost

Postby Petrus » Sat Feb 07, 2015 4:42 am

Hi Arahant,

Just to let you know your answers look fine to me.
For now I will wait with replying to the body questions, until you answered all.
Thusly the self is but a thought, or rather a series of thoughts.
It is one thought only that combines a series of thoughts to be the self.
A series of thoughts is a concept, that only can exist as a concept, not as something real.
He goes by the alias Meditation Guru or MG.
I read some. He is cool!

Warm regards, Petrus

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Re: enlightenment lost

Postby Arahant » Sun Feb 08, 2015 5:17 am

Hi, sorry about my delay in posting, I've had an eventful couple of days. As promised,I will do my best to answer your questions.
In direct experience does the body have a shape or a form?
No, or at least it lacks any definite form. As I have attempted to describe before, it appears as a dynamic, indefinable cocoon or egg/sphere.
Is there an inside or outside?
No, there is only an infinite sense of what is. My body encompasses all that I can feel, yet my senses seem to be protected into the environment. Therefore, with this perspective and without bringing concepts into play, my surroundings are not separate from my body.
What does the body consist of in direct experience?
The body can be felt as clusters of sensation, which may be experienced separately or all at once. Either way, there is no definite end to any of these clusters or to the whole structure itself.
Do you have control over this body?
This I may answer with a bit of insight which I have gained previously, which is the idea of cause and effect. Though I know that this is a concept, it perfectly explains how the body operates. In essence, the mind (the body's control room) is a direct reflection of the environment as it makes sensory impressions upon the body.Therefore, all that the mind is is impressed upon it by its environment, as it is nothing but repeated patterns of sensory stimulation.
However, to answer your question outside of the realm of concepts, with a fair amount of focus I am able to observe that my body functions on its own, just as my thoughts arise spontaneously. There is no observable "controller" of this process, only the process itself. However,I tend to get into trouble when I associate with my body/mind, and I can no longer perceive that this process is autonomous. In these instances, it is a struggle to stay in control or to "keep my cool". This is the very issue which I wish to eliminate.
Does the body hear?
Or is there hearing?
in direct experience, there is only the act of hearing. any kind of bodily association is extremely vague when viewed directly. The only sense that appears to have ties to the existence of a body is that of feeling. Therefore, hearing appears to operate apart from the body, or what can be felt of it. Further, the sense of hearing its "wider" than that of feeling, as it seems to extend out into the environment.
Are you this body?
I cannot say that I am my body. I do, however unintentionally, associate with my senses. Thusly, the experience of a self or the experience of consciousness happen to full in the realm of sensory experience. All that I can say that I am is consciousness, and all that I can say of consciousness is that it exists through the senses. The only thing that I equate with my self is this consciousness, situated locally through my senses, and objectified by the experience of "reality" occurring relatively at a point of origin. Sorry, this is the best I could do to describe my sense of "self" as I currently view it. This is one case where language is a hindrance to my ability to express what I mean to express, though I try nonetheless.
Can you locate a mind?
This is an interesting thing to consider, because I think that normally people believe that the mind must be situated somewhere behind their eyes or between their ears, as that is the seat of the brain. However, when I attempt to find a mind using such direction, I find that nothing is there. Now I know that my mind thinks thoughts, and the most common way this is done is through some kind of internal dialogue. So I sense words surfacing in some kind of "mind space" separate from the world in which my body or physical sensations exist. I am not hearing these words, they simply arise within empty space or silence, and have absolutely no tangibility. If I really look for the source of these thoughts, I can see that they appear in different locations relative to my body: the back of my forehead, behind my eyelids, at the top and the back of my head, yet there is no real accommodating sensation. To make a long answer short, I can say that there is absolutely no way to locate the mind.

Whew! That sure was a lot of writing! I have done the best job that I can to express my perspective on these questions, and I sincerely hope that you can understand what I am meaning to say. I find myself extremely limited by language when I attempt to describe such metaphysical things as are posed by your questions. That was definitely a mental workout to say the least! I feel accomplished just attempting to put these things into words, so thank you for giving me an opportunity and a motive to do so!

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Re: enlightenment lost

Postby Petrus » Sun Feb 08, 2015 6:27 am

Hi Arahant,

Thank you very much for your effort so far.
It is really good to read the way you already are LOOKING.
You definately know what direct experience is. That will make this easy.
Did you see this article: http://liberationunleashed.com/articles ... xperience/?
The body can be felt as clusters of sensation, which may be experienced separately or all at once. Either way, there is no definite end to any of these clusters or to the whole structure itself.
Is it possible to experience a cluster of sensations? Or is it one sensation at the time?
Could it be true that the so-called body only is an image made by thought/mind?
However,I tend to get into trouble when I associate with my body/mind, and I can no longer perceive that this process is autonomous. In these instances, it is a struggle to stay in control or to "keep my cool". This is the very issue which I wish to eliminate.
How do you associate with the body/mind? What tools you have to do that?
What is this I that gets in trouble, associates, perceives, gets in trouble and is wishing (must be a magican, it can do a lot of different tricks)? Where is it located? Is it a real thing?
I do, however unintentionally, associate with my senses.
You mean you label it "I"? I smell, I hear, etc?
Does the label alter the experience really?
Label it for fun "Mickey Mouse". Mickey Mouse is smelling. Is the experience different?
The only thing that I equate with my self is this consciousness, situated locally through my senses, and objectified by the experience of "reality" occurring relatively at a point of origin.
Isnt this concept consciousness an invention to make a less personal I, but still some sort of center of being?
Is there really such sort of center? If yes, where? If no, congratulations!

This one was still pending:
Thusly the self is but a thought, or rather a series of thoughts.
You can not experience more than one thought at the same time, although they can switch very fast.
The combining of a series of thoughts to a concept is what often is called self.
A concept, that only can exist as a concept, not as something real.

Warm regards, Petrus

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Re: enlightenment lost

Postby Arahant » Mon Feb 09, 2015 5:54 am

Hello again!
Hi Arahant,

Thank you very much for your effort so far.
It is really good to read the way you already are LOOKING.
You definately know what direct experience is. That will make this easy.
Did you see this article: http://liberationunleashed.com/articles ... xperience/?
It's good to feel that I'm back on the right track again. Thank you for being my guide! I read that article and it seems to resonate with what I considered direct experience to be. Being direct experience is something that I have worked hard on since my first satori experience. It even brought me to a second (really brief) satori. There is something so mind numbingly incredible about living inside of direct experience. When I am there, it is as if I am experiencing everything for the first time. If I follow it long enough, it brings about an ecstatic rush, which is a great relief when life becomes stressful.
Is it possible to experience a cluster of sensations? Or is it one sensation at the time?
I suppose it feels more like I am experiencing each sensation alone, because they arise sporadically. Even if I focus on my self as a whole, it seems that my mind is simply interpreting many different individual sensations in rapid succession. However I feel that I might have a different response for this question should I be in a more holistic state of mind. Currently my mind is racing without provocation.
Could it be true that the so-called body only is an image made by thought/mind?
Well to take this question deeper, I think that mind itself is created by the outer experience. It is like a soft lump of clay, taking impressions from everything around it. Without the outside world, it would not exist. With this in mind, I believe that human society creates the dualistic idea of there being a body and an individual who keeps that body. I think of society as an ego-support system, and unfortunately I have been part of it since the moment I was born. Yes, the body is a thought, as without thoughts (only raw sensation) there is no way to outline a body. Rationality and logic draw the outlines.
How do you associate with the body/mind? What tools you have to do that?
Hmm...this question goes deeper than it appears on the surface. The only tool that I have is the idea of being a separate individual, which is imposed on me in social situations. However, I know that nobody controls my thoughts, they come about without prodding. So I can't say that any idea is a tool which "i" can use, because where do "i" operate from? Well, put simply, I don't. However, I cannot escape the tormented state of mind imposed on me when I interact in society. It's out of my control, probably because I never really had control.
What is this I that gets in trouble, associates, perceives, gets in trouble and is wishing (must be a magican, it can do a lot of different tricks)? Where is it located? Is it a real thing?
I have no location, and I do not exist.If I have any shape, I am simply a continuation or reoccurring pattern of thought. This body experiences pain, this mind perceived itself to be stressed out and anxious. If only "i"could do anything about that.
You mean you label it "I"? I smell, I hear, etc?
Does the label alter the experience really?
Label it for fun "Mickey Mouse". Mickey Mouse is smelling. Is the experience different?
Haha I really do enjoy some of your answers. I do realize that there is no way to associate with the senses, as they are autonomous, self operating. I suppose what I meant is that the idea which imagines that it has some real substance, calling itself I, won't stay down when it is knocked down, even though this is the exact thing that is causing it pain. Since it is just a thought, it has no control, but it continues to surface nonetheless :(
Isnt this concept consciousness an invention to make a less personal I, but still some sort of center of being?
Yes, you are absolutely right, but the problem is the idea that calls itself I can't seem to get the message. I am torn apart when I look out into the world and see that my senses appear to have a point of origin, intersecting and forming some kind of consciousness. I am destroyed by the thought that it could even be possible that others are also conscious, and are having unique experiences, when I myself am conscious. I have many times asked myself why consciousness is, and why it appears to be able to witness itself. This is kind of a demeaning question, but why isn't this consciousness centered around another "person" or for that matter, an ant or a frog? I know that consciousness must be a concept, I simply can't see how everything IS what it IS. There most certainly appears to be a center, floating in a sea of consciousness, which is really just voidness, because it doesn't exist. You can see why my mind is torn apart by this concept.
This one was still pending:
Thusly the self is but a thought, or rather a series of thoughts.

You can not experience more than one thought at the same time, although they can switch very fast.
The combining of a series of thoughts to a concept is what often is called self.
A concept, that only can exist as a concept, not as something real.
I understand that each thought is experienced individually, if there can even be said to be such thing as individual thoughts, and I understand the pattern logic caused by impressions on the senses. It would be more correct to say that the self is a continuation of thought, and there is only one thought, though it takes many shapes. This thought is I.

I feel I have hit a brick wall. Now it is time to stop knocking on it and instead try using a hammer to break through.

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Re: enlightenment lost

Postby Petrus » Mon Feb 09, 2015 8:06 am

Hi Arahant,

What is this name Arahant from anyhow?
However I feel that I might have a different response for this question should I be in a more holistic state of mind.
So you invented (thought, mind, you, whatever) a new state of mind?
While I am busy tearing all what smells like mind down, haha...
What is "holistic state of mind" in terms of direct experience?
I think that mind itself is created by the outer experience.
You think? You?
Can you experience mind being created?
Yes, the body is a thought,
Great... I agree on that one.
I cannot escape the tormented state of mind imposed on me when I interact in society.
Another state of mind, haha. But, is it true you cannot escape? Were YOU ever in that state? Or did you think so?
If only "i"could do anything about that.
So you cant. Because there is no-one. Now what?
I suppose what I meant is that the idea which imagines that it has some real substance, calling itself I, won't stay down when it is knocked down, even though this is the exact thing that is causing it pain.
"I" is not an organising structure, it's a concept, overplayed by thoughts over experience. It does not matter one bit if you believe in it or not, things get done, organised, action is taken.
It's not because of some phantom structure that a separated I is apparently holding. There are thoughts about it, but that's all. Thoughts about thoughts about thoughts. Can you see that?
the problem is the idea that calls itself I can't seem to get the message.
How an idea can get a message, you tell me. Is an idea a living creature?
that my senses appear to have a point of origin,
They dont have. Check that.
I am destroyed by the thought that it could even be possible that others are also conscious, and are having unique experiences, when I myself am conscious
So you are destroyed now? There are no others, there is only existence with many viewpoints. Every viewpoint may be special, but without a center..
why isn't this consciousness centered around another "person" or for that matter, an ant or a frog
There is no "this consciousness"! A thought makes it personal. Thoughts are very greedy: its mine!!
There is experiencing, no subject, no object. Just experiencing!
Maybe a frog can have the same thought as this "why isnt it... "-one?
There most certainly appears to be a center,
What this center consists of? What does it manage? And how? Where it has its harddisk?
You can see why my mind is torn apart by this concept.
When that is really so, allow it...
Without mind its so much easier...
It would be more correct to say that the self is a continuation of thought, and there is only one thought, though it takes many shapes. This thought is I.
So it is thought... No real thing!
I feel I have hit a brick wall. Now it is time to stop knocking on it and instead try using a hammer to break through.
I feel that too. Dont do anything! How could you? There is no-one to do something.
Just see the wall falling apart. Or enjoy the wall if it doesnt.

Warmest regards, Petrus
PS: I cant say how much I enjoy all these different approaches of live: this Arahant is great.
But I love them all....

Warmest regards, Petrus

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Re: enlightenment lost

Postby Arahant » Mon Feb 09, 2015 5:44 pm

Hello
What is this name Arahant from anyhow?
Arahant is a Buddhist term for one who has attained a high level of enlightenment, but has not yet reached the level of a buddha. Though I am not necessarily a Buddhist, I still have much appreciation for the wisdom it carries.
What is "holistic state of mind" in terms of direct experience?
Well I'm terms of direct experience it can't really be expressed, so it must be only a concept. Like any other "state of mind" it really consists of thought, whatever thought is happening in the moment, even if it is the thought that there is no thought.
Can you experience mind being created?
I cannot experience mind being created, it simply is.
I cannot escape the tormented state of mind imposed on me when I interact in society.

Another state of mind, haha. But, is it true you cannot escape? Were YOU ever in that state? Or did you think so?
I suppose I was never in that state, so there is no way to escape it. I was never in control, and there is no gaining control.
So you cant. Because there is no-one. Now what?
I guess I have to accept it for what it is.
It's not because of some phantom structure that a separated I is apparently holding. There are thoughts about it, but that's all. Thoughts about thoughts about thoughts. Can you see that?
Yes that clarifies things a little bit. So thought is the only thing that recognizes thought. Mind is only thought, me myself and i are only thoughts.
How an idea can get a message, you tell me. Is an idea a living creature?
An idea is a thought, and it is not alive, though it is a part of life. It doesn't have sensors, or a brain to think with, because it is a thought, so it can not be told to change. It functions on its own.
So you are destroyed now? There are no others, there is only existence with many viewpoints. Every viewpoint may be special, but without a center..
I think I have simply been following the rabbit too far down the hole. Existence is not something to be rationalized, because mind never intersects with reality. It is still incredible that life can create viewpoints, but ill let that be.
What this center consists of? What does it manage? And how? Where it has its harddisk?
There are the senses, which operate without the intervention of a self. There is thought, which arises by itself. These things are still out there though, and there seems to be no " in here" If there is a center, it would be called emptiness.
Just see the wall falling apart. Or enjoy the wall if it doesnt.
Yes it seems pointless to try to break down life's barriers, because there will always be more on the path ahead. I need to let these things be, and try to live for happiness and truth. Maybe the only cure for my trials is to accept them as they come.

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Re: enlightenment lost

Postby Petrus » Tue Feb 10, 2015 6:59 am

Hi Arahant,
I guess I have to accept it for what it is.
Who/what is guessing? Who/what is having to accept?

By the way it doenst sound like acceptance, this sounds like disappointment.
Isnt it so you actually want to go back to the beautiful experience and want to stay in that?
It is still incredible that life can create viewpoints, but ill let that be.
Life is incredible indeed...
I need to let these things be, and try to live for happiness and truth. Maybe the only cure for my trials is to accept them as they come.
Is it possible to let things be? Who/what can do that?
And again: Who/what is able to accept?

If you can see this I is a thought only.
So there is no-one waiting until nirwana opens again. It is a thought only.
You are not the thoughts about you! Can you see that?

I skip the questions about thoughts. Lets go to the key question:
Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

Warm regards, Petrus

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Re: enlightenment lost

Postby Arahant » Wed Feb 11, 2015 4:10 am

Hello,
Who/what is guessing? Who/what is having to accept?
This question certainly sheds some light on my problem. I have been acting through an imaginary I, believing that relief can come through concepts such as acceptance, letting go, or living in the moment. Unfortunately, I can see no alternative, all that is left is a deep, dark, and frightening void where there is nothing to cling on to.
By the way it doenst sound like acceptance, this sounds like disappointment.
Isnt it so you actually want to go back to the beautiful experience and want to stay in that?
Yes, this has been my goal for so long, yet I have all but given up on it. I am not religious but I feel like my "fall from heaven" is some form of punishment. Somewhere along the line I "didn't get it". What is to be done about that? I've seen and felt things that I can hardly describe. Still nothing I have done has brought me one step closer to that lost heaven.
If you can see this I is a thought only.
So there is no-one waiting until nirwana opens again. It is a thought only.
You are not the thoughts about you! Can you see that?
I understand this perfectly, bit of course in saying that I regress back to the imaginary I. There are times when I can feel this: it is like a gigantic tractor beam pulling me up toward some ultimate destination. However, when I begin to feel pain, or when I am placed in a situation where I must interact with the common social notion of a self or an ego, the magnet loses its traction, and I fall down again. It seems that when this pull is strongest, something always happens to interrupt the process. I am not myself, I am not thoughts about myself, I an not thoughts about not being thoughts about myself. Yet still I fail to make the final leap...
Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
No. Self is just a continuation of thought, describing an experience that has no inherent form. This is all that it ever has been, this is all that it ever will be. "Consciousness" is not self. It is merely an attempt made by the continuation of thought to make sense of sensation. Sensation is in and of itself. It exists without any intermediary I. Thought, movement, everything seen felt or heard, is as it is, there is no control room or controller behind it all.

There is pain, there is emotion, there is longing and desire, but there is no I. If I arises, it is but a thought. All is life, and life is all encompassing. This realization has been made (but it is only thought) yet there is no relief. There is nobody who can get relief, but there is still pain, and there is still a desire for perfect freedom. Even without I, all of this persists. Perhaps there is more to be done.

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Re: enlightenment lost

Postby Petrus » Wed Feb 11, 2015 11:14 am

Hi Arahant,
I feel like my "fall from heaven" is some form of punishment. Somewhere along the line I "didn't get it". What is to be done about that?
Haha: nothing!
It is the I in "I didnt get it" that makes it difficult, can you see?
Without I, it just would be an enormous feeling of longing, what even could be enjoyed.

I would say: try to feel it. All small details of this longing, cry, yell, whatever, but feel what it gots for you.
Back to something that ever was, is an idea, it never can be, there is now, there is longing, maybe the image you made of it even is not right anymore.

And after you felt every bit of it, then the longing probably goes, making place for ...? You dont know what is next and you cant control whats next: that is the beauty of it.
I understand this perfectly, bit of course in saying that I regress back to the imaginary I.
It sounds that you have an idea that one can pop in and out of self? Does that mean that self comes into existence? Or that some unpleasant feeling a arise? What do these feelings happen to?
However, when I begin to feel pain, or when I am placed in a situation where I must interact with the common social notion of a self or an ego
Life happens, shit happens. Life is not busy making a beautiful end to this I of yours. Everything happens as it happens. Feel the pain. Feel common social notion of a self. Who is it distracting?
Yet still I fail to make the final leap...
There is no I.
There is no final leap.
Life already is (without there ever being a separate self).
but there is still pain, and there is still a desire for perfect freedom
Feel the pain, really feel the pain, not in order to get rid of it, not in order to make the final leap.
No feel it, interested... this part of existence came to visit today. Invite it. Love it. This is what is now, here. The only thing you got.

Warm regards, Petrus

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Re: enlightenment lost

Postby Arahant » Wed Feb 11, 2015 10:01 pm

Hello,

I am starting to see what this is all amounting to. In fact, I don't feel that there are any more barriers between I and not I. I have not become enlightened in the sense of an existential bliss and ease of being, but I have seen through to an unmistakable truth. There is nobody behind all that is happening: it simply happens. Even as I write this, there is no one who writes. Perhaps this truth is not the end of the road. Many things have happened in this lifetime, and there is still a long way to go. At least I have one solid viewpoint to live by, add I have become disillusioned. Do not be fooled by my words, there is nobody who has become disillusioned or who holds any viewpoints. There is nobody waking the path. It simply is.
I would say: try to feel it. All small details of this longing, cry, yell, whatever, but feel what it gots for you.
This has brought much relief today. There is no longer a victim who suffers trials, there are only trials. There its much ease when the illusion falls away, everything takes on a natural flow. Everything that I once considered to be unpleasant still remains, there simply is nobody left to deem it so. All negativity may simply dissolve once it sees that there is no host to feed off of. Here is hoping that this is true.
And after you felt every bit of it, then the longing probably goes, making place for ...? You dont know what is next and you cant control whats next: that is the beauty of it.
This desire is still in the process of working itself out. It is hard to feel pain for what it is, but as I read somewhere in "enlightening quotes": when something catches fire, it is most natural to let it burn. A forest grows back fresh and new after the burn scars have healed, I will live by example.
It sounds that you have an idea that one can pop in and out of self? Does that mean that self comes into existence? Or that some unpleasant feeling a arise? What do these feelings happen to?
I feel that I have resolved this issue, as before it truly felt that an illusive I was trying to take over control. Now I see it for what it is: an idea. Feelings are just feelings, there is no recipient. I cannot simply pop in and out of existence, anything identifying itself as I is merely a thought.
Everything happens as it happens. Feel the pain. Feel common social notion of a self. Who is it distracting?
Yes, this is the remedy that I have taken to. Nobody suffers these things, they are simply facts of life, and cannot be changed, life happens without direction.
Feel the pain, really feel the pain, not in order to get rid of it, not in order to make the final leap.
No feel it, interested... this part of existence came to visit today. Invite it. Love it. This is what is now, here. The only thing you got.
I feel you have placed an elixir in my hands, the likes of which would turn psychiatrists and MDs green with envy. Thank you for this, surely with it my wounds may heal in time. It may not be the key which opens doors labeled "everlasting ecstasy" or "instant relief", but these concepts are the very nature of my plight. I will do well without them. Life will come as it comes, there is no way to divert the flow. I await whatever comes next eagerly, watchfully, and most importantly, selflessly.


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