Dridhamati - will you be my guide?

This is a read-only part of the forum. All threads where seeing happens are stored here and come from this forum, the Facebook guiding area and various LU blogs. The complete list, sorted by guide, contains all links. The archives include threads of those that came to LU already seeing as well.
User avatar
Jai Ananda
Posts: 55
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2014 1:19 am

Dridhamati - will you be my guide?

Postby Jai Ananda » Fri Jul 04, 2014 6:20 pm

Hi, I am ready to explore the illusion of separate self. I have been on this journey of life for close to 60years with a lot of time spent exploring spirituality, but somehow not owning or taking it in deep enough to transform. I think beliefs and my grasping onto habitual comfort has kept me from the leap and ownership of my true self or should I say non-self. I want to learn and understand with hopes to leap beyond my limitations. With gratitude, Jai Ananda

User avatar
dridhamati
Posts: 642
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2012 10:09 pm
Location: Christchurch, NZ

Re: Dridhamati - will you be my guide?

Postby dridhamati » Fri Jul 04, 2014 8:43 pm

Hi Jai Ananda,

Apologies about the delay in answering. I've only been made aware of your presence here a short while ago.

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed (LU) and since you asked I'm happy to guide you.

Before anything, a few points…

… about the process:
1. Could you please confirm that you agree with the Disclaimer on the home page of the LU site?
2. Let's aim to write once a day if possible, even if it's short. It is a good way to keep up the momentum. I'm still guiding a Kiwi so I'm used to the time lag (I'm in France at the mo').
3. Responses require utmost honesty.
4. Responses are best formulated from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). If you are unfamiliar with Direct Experience please let me know.

… about posting:
1. You might want to familiarise yourself with the useful 'Quote' function: http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ote#p12593.
2. Best write your post in your favourite word processor, then copy & paste it into the editor on the LU forum, then format it as you wish. That way you won't lose your work half-way through (which can happen if there is a hiccup with the Internet connection...)
3. Please click the 'subscribe topic' link at the very bottom of the page to ensure you get an email whenever a reply comes in.

Sooooo. As soon as the formalities have been seen to, we can get started.

Looking forward to working with you!

Cheers
Dridhamati

User avatar
Jai Ananda
Posts: 55
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2014 1:19 am

Re: Dridhamati - will you be my guide?

Postby Jai Ananda » Sat Jul 05, 2014 3:10 am

Hi Dridhamati,
Thanks so much. I look forward to corresponding/working with you.
In response to your note:
I read and agree with the LU Disclaimer.
Writing once a day sounds great and will do my very best to meet that commitment.
I will be honest.
I think I understand responding from direct experience. If it seems I am not, please let me know.
Familiarizing myself with site -
quote function
, etc., but not sure I did it right?! looks funny in the preview.
with appreciation, Jai Ananda

User avatar
dridhamati
Posts: 642
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2012 10:09 pm
Location: Christchurch, NZ

Re: Dridhamati - will you be my guide?

Postby dridhamati » Sat Jul 05, 2014 10:52 am

Hi Jai Ananda,

Thank you for dealing promptly with the formalities... And the quote worked just fine, great!

Now getting back to your first post, thank you for the brief introduction, and for the candid way you present it.

Since you've been in the 'spiritual circuit' for a while, I suggest that for the duration of this inquiry, we shelf all previous ideas and views of any particular 'path'.
And this must also include shelving expectations as to what is being undertaken here, what you 'think' or 'hope' that implies for the future.

In the post you're using words such as 'taking it in deep enough', 'beliefs', 'ownership', which perhaps give a clue to why your search was unsuccessful.
It seems here that so far you have been looking for a thing, called 'no-self', something that can be 'taken in deep enough', 'believed', 'owned'. And since 'self/no-self' is not a 'thing' in any way whatsoever, well it is only natural that in this regard your search failed.

And now rather than have someone else tell you what 'self/no-self' is (or isn't), let's proceed.

So upon reading the following sentence:
“I”, “me”, “mine”, “myself” is a fairy tale. “I” does not exist, and never had any inherent existence ever.
What are the responses that can be observed in direct experience?

Cheers
Dridhamati

User avatar
Jai Ananda
Posts: 55
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2014 1:19 am

Re: Dridhamati - will you be my guide?

Postby Jai Ananda » Sat Jul 05, 2014 7:51 pm

Hi Dridhamati,

I think as you said, shelving previous ideas and views is a good idea and also challenging. I am excited to explore that "I" does not exist, BUT wow, not sure what that means. An expression I have often used is "I and I" - meaning "self and spirit" working together. So with shelving this past concept, I would like to contemplate and explore this with some time. I am going outside to be by myself or with whom or what if there is no "I."

Will write again today in response to your question.

with curiosity and a spark of excitement, thank you. Jai Ananda

User avatar
Jai Ananda
Posts: 55
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2014 1:19 am

Re: Dridhamati - will you be my guide?

Postby Jai Ananda » Sun Jul 06, 2014 2:54 am

Hi Dridhamati,

I think your question brought up more questions than answers.

So, If “I” does not exist, nor ever has then who is this being of energy who moves within space? Sitting on grass allowing my(?) cat to purr and walk over me(?). Softening my(?) gaze creating a fuzzy edge of the definition of trees, leaves, sky, ground, animal, rock – this merging of energies of where one begins and one ends I(?) wonder about perception of what is separate. Does this make sense?

Then digging in dirt, weeding the garden, moving the wheel barrow and cleaning up, then who/what is this? What is behind the thought and action? If there is no “I” then how is this done?

If “I, me, mine, myself is a fairy tale” does that mean the identity is an illusion, but maybe the being and/or energy exists.

If it is not “I” that sees these hands typing and feels the keys being pressed by fingertips following thoughts created within this being as “I”? explore the “I” that does not exist what is this all about?

Well, these thoughts and exploration just keeps unfolding. Any guidance is welcome.

with surrender,
Jai Ananda

User avatar
dridhamati
Posts: 642
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2012 10:09 pm
Location: Christchurch, NZ

Re: Dridhamati - will you be my guide?

Postby dridhamati » Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:04 am

Hi Jai Ananda,

This post shows how much care you've given to observe what comes up when the sentence is brought to mind.

Let's have a look at some of the questions in particular.
If “I, me, mine, myself is a fairy tale” does that mean the identity is an illusion, but maybe the being and/or energy exists.
This is a very good approximation to what it is we're heading towards.

Here is an exercise:
1. find a flat, even surface, a table top is great,
2. clear the table top of all objects,
3. then place a mug on the middle of that table top.
Now-
4. sit comfortably on a chair by the table,
5. look at the mug,
6. why it is called a mug?
7. what “makes” it a mug, what gives the mug its “mug-ness”, its “essence of mug”?
Then-
8. put some water in the mug, and place some flowers in the water,
9. has the original “mug” been altered in any way?
Lastly-
ONLY do this with a mug you want to throw away...
10. break the mug (drop it on the floor, hit it with a hammer, whatever),
11. is there still a “mug”?

Can you please answer the 4 questions above?

So, If “I” does not exist, nor ever has then who is this being of energy who moves within space? Sitting on grass allowing my(?) cat to purr and walk over me(?). Softening my(?) gaze creating a fuzzy edge of the definition of trees, leaves, sky, ground, animal, rock – this merging of energies of where one begins and one ends I(?) wonder about perception of what is separate. Does this make sense?
If there's any suspicion that an “I” is present in those activities, please observe more closely in direct experience. Simply try and locate that “I”.
Example:
Where was this “I” when the cat was purring?

All the best
Dridhamati

User avatar
Jai Ananda
Posts: 55
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2014 1:19 am

Re: Dridhamati - will you be my guide?

Postby Jai Ananda » Sun Jul 06, 2014 2:55 pm

Good morning,
I am on the road today, but hope to do the mug exercise this evening. Until then I will continue to observe the "I" in my activities today with more direct experience.
with gratitude, Jai Ananda

User avatar
Jai Ananda
Posts: 55
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2014 1:19 am

Re: Dridhamati - will you be my guide?

Postby Jai Ananda » Mon Jul 07, 2014 2:26 am

Hi again,
why it is called a mug?
Because at some time, someone labeled it as a “mug” to perform a particular function/purpose.
what “makes” it a mug, what gives the mug its “mug-ness”, its “essence of mug”?
It is a mug because of its definition as a “mug” is to hold a liquid substance that could be hot or cold to drink from. The “essence of mug” or its “mugness” is more of a description of a utilitarian object with particular characteristics as a container often with a handle to drink from that has been named “mug.”
put some water in the mug, and place some flowers in the water,
has the original “mug” been altered in any way?
Yes, it no longer feels like a mug, nor looks like one with water and flowers in it. It even seems to have a new definition and purpose to hold flowers, and could even now be named a “vase.”
ONLY do this with a mug you want to throw away...
break the mug (drop it on the floor, hit it with a hammer, whatever), is there still a “mug”?
There are pieces of the mug so I guess it is a broken mug, but it is no longer a useful mug since it cannot serve its purpose.
Jai Ananda wrote:
So, If “I” does not exist, nor ever has then who is this being of energy who moves within space? Sitting on grass allowing my(?) cat to purr and walk over me(?). Softening my(?) gaze creating a fuzzy edge of the definition of trees, leaves, sky, ground, animal, rock – this merging of energies of where one begins and one ends I(?) wonder about perception of what is separate. Does this make sense? If there's any suspicion that an “I” is present in those activities, please observe more closely in direct experience. Simply try and locate that “I”.
Example:
Where was this “I” when the cat was purring?
The "I" is a presence in the moment experiencing another form of presence labeled cat making a sound labeled "purring."

I will be at work during the day tomorrow, but hope to be able to connect from there. If not, I will respond tomorrow night.

good night, Jai Ananda

User avatar
dridhamati
Posts: 642
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2012 10:09 pm
Location: Christchurch, NZ

Re: Dridhamati - will you be my guide?

Postby dridhamati » Mon Jul 07, 2014 9:55 am

Hi Jai Ananda,

So, let's look at the answers from the “mug” exercise:
1. why it is called a mug? Because at some time, someone labeled it as a “mug”.
2. what “makes” it a mug? Because of its definition as a “mug” to hold a liquid substance...
3. confusion seems to appear. Behold the transmogrified “mug” turning into a “vase”. :-)
4. a broken “mug”? But hang on, does this still agree with 2.?

All these answers above were given from a conceptual perspective, would you agree with that?

Now the next exercise is to look at the “mug”, simply look at it, and report on what is actually perceived through the sense of sight. In other words, report on what is direct(ly) experience(d).
Try and omit all responses that come from concepts, elaborations, views, etc.

And lastly, please revisit the 4 questions above from the perspective of direct experience.
What would the answers be from the perspective of direct experience?

The "I" is a presence in the moment experiencing another form of presence labeled cat making a sound labeled "purring."
OK, so this is what the answer above tells:
1. there is the experience of a 'form' labelled 'cat'. Agreed?
2. there is the experience of a 'sound' labelled 'purring'. Agreed?
3. there is a claim that the “I” is a 'presence'. Agreed?
Now could you please revisit this from the perspective of direct experience?
Observe how you reach the first two conclusions: which senses informed these conclusions?
And do the same with the third conclusion: was it an actual sense that informed this conclusion, or was it a concept, an idea?

All the best
Dridhamati

User avatar
Jai Ananda
Posts: 55
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2014 1:19 am

Re: Dridhamati - will you be my guide?

Postby Jai Ananda » Mon Jul 07, 2014 1:43 pm

Good morning,

I was able to access through work and was anxious to see your reply. I will reflect and respond this evening when I have time since the work day is almost in full swing. I did look under articles and printed a few out to read and get a better understanding of "direct experience."

I did wake up this moring a bit more fuzzy and while practicing my morning ritual(s) I felt much more sensations/energy then identity or I.

with gratitude, Jai Ananda

User avatar
dridhamati
Posts: 642
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2012 10:09 pm
Location: Christchurch, NZ

Re: Dridhamati - will you be my guide?

Postby dridhamati » Mon Jul 07, 2014 2:41 pm

Hi Jai Ananda,

A quick pointer to what direct experience is:
The unmediated or raw sensation perceived through the six senses. The six senses being: sight, hearing, taste, touch, smell, and mind.

Unmediated is defined here as not processed, labelled, interpreted, compared, judged, etc.
Mind is defined here as the sense where 'mental objects' (thoughts) are perceived.

I did wake up this moring a bit more fuzzy and while practicing my morning ritual(s) I felt much more sensations/energy then identity or I.
Do you mean "I felt much more sensations/energy than identity or I"?
Please say more when you can.

All the best
Dridhamati

User avatar
Jai Ananda
Posts: 55
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2014 1:19 am

Re: Dridhamati - will you be my guide?

Postby Jai Ananda » Tue Jul 08, 2014 2:50 am

Hi Dridhamati,

Interesting moment. I was responding in a word program when lighting hit nearby and caused the power to go out so I lost what I wrote. Here I am again with another try.

I am not sure what I am doing and feel puzzled. I am feeling a strain (brain strain!) as I observe the mug, trying not to process, label, interpret, compare or judge.
Now the next exercise is to look at the “mug”, simply look at it, and report on what is actually perceived through the sense of sight. In other words, report on what is direct(ly) experience(d).
Try and omit all responses that come from concepts, elaborations, views, etc.
Through the sense of site, gazing at the mug, the sense of site merges with a sense of connectedness with a feeling coming up that it is a soft roundish shape energetically connecting, inviting me(?) to reach and hold, to merge and share. Does this make sense?!

Answers from the perspective of “direct experience” (I think?!)
1. why it is called a mug? I do not know except from a learned thought
2. what “makes” it a mug, what gives the mug its “mug-ness”, its “essence of mug”? The thought of warm liquid ready to be sipped
3. put some water in the mug, and place some flowers in the water, has the original “mug” been altered in any way? Maybe not the item, but the perception and relationship is different.
4. Break the mug (drop it on the floor, hit it with a hammer, whatever), is there still a “mug”? It is in pieces and no longer holds the perception or sense of a mug.
1. there is the experience of a 'form' labelled 'cat'. Agreed?
2. there is the experience of a 'sound' labelled 'purring'. Agreed?
3. there is a claim that the “I” is a 'presence'. Agreed?
Now could you please revisit this from the perspective of direct experience?
Observe how you reach the first two conclusions: which senses informed these conclusions?
And do the same with the third conclusion: was it an actual sense that informed this conclusion, or was it a concept, an idea?
The sight, touch and hearing senses informed my mind about the thought and experience of my cat.
I think it was a concept of the “I” but really was an experience of the moment and being present with the cat.
Jai Ananda wrote: I did wake up this morning a bit more fuzzy and while practicing my morning ritual(s) I felt much more sensations/energy then identity or I.
Do you mean "I felt much more sensations/energy than identity or I"?
Please say more when you can.
Yes, "I felt much more sensations/energy than identity or I"?
Instead of feeling like a defined being - me, I felt like a body of energy and could feel different sensations happening and moving through. I observed and was able to be clearer with what I was experiencing and there was a sense of letting go and just being with what is.

This has taken me hours - believe it or not . . . I am heading to bed.

with gratitude, Jai Ananada

User avatar
dridhamati
Posts: 642
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2012 10:09 pm
Location: Christchurch, NZ

Re: Dridhamati - will you be my guide?

Postby dridhamati » Tue Jul 08, 2014 10:28 am

Hi Jai Ananda,
I am not sure what I am doing and feel puzzled. I am feeling a strain (brain strain!) as I observe the mug, trying not to process, label, interpret, compare or judge.
It's not so much 'trying to stop' the process of labelling, interpreting, comparing or judging (conceptualization.) It's more about noticing the direct ('raw') experience, noticing the conceptualization of the experience, and then reporting only on the experience, leaving the conceptualization behind.

1. why it is called a mug? I do not know except from a learned thought
2. what “makes” it a mug, what gives the mug its “mug-ness”, its “essence of mug”? The thought of warm liquid ready to be sipped
3. put some water in the mug, and place some flowers in the water, has the original “mug” been altered in any way? Maybe not the item, but the perception and relationship is different.
4. Break the mug (drop it on the floor, hit it with a hammer, whatever), is there still a “mug”? It is in pieces and no longer holds the perception or sense of a mug.
That's the gist of it, good.
Now can you see a constant in the answers above?
Taking 1. and 2. particularly. Does direct experience tell you anything about what is being observed? If the 'thought' was omitted, what would you be able to write about this exercise?
Now this exercise can be tried with everything that reaches the senses. The touch of the rain, the taste of tea, the sound of music or birds.
Simply observe the process unfolding: sensations, conceptualization, etc. Then make a note of the experience alone, stripped of any conceptualization.

Yes, "I felt much more sensations/energy than identity or I"?
Instead of feeling like a defined being - me, I felt like a body of energy and could feel different sensations happening and moving through. I observed and was able to be clearer with what I was experiencing and there was a sense of letting go and just being with what is.
This reads as if you were particularly connected with the actual experiences, and much less invested in the thoughts going through the mind. That is what direct experience is essentially about.
What is also of import here is the observation that 'you felt less of an identity, an “I”.' Can this [less of an identity, an “I”] be observed also, say looking at the mug above or listening to a bird, in direct experience?

This has taken me hours - believe it or not . . .
I can believe it and thank you for your commitment.

All the best
Dridhamati

User avatar
Jai Ananda
Posts: 55
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2014 1:19 am

Re: Dridhamati - will you be my guide?

Postby Jai Ananda » Tue Jul 08, 2014 1:29 pm

Good morning,

Checking in before the work day takes off. Thank you for your prompt response, support and guidance.

I feel confused this morning and did not sleep too good. Reading your response for some reason brings tears, not so much sadness (but there seems to be some), but more like a letting go. I think the struggle of "control to understand" verses the "noticing the direct 'raw' experience" is somethign for me to keep working with.

Back to work.
with gratitude, Jai Ananda

I am


Return to “ARCHIVES”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 96 guests