Hello Billy, your post is here.

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Elizabeth
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Hello Billy, your post is here.

Postby Elizabeth » Wed Jan 04, 2012 3:33 pm

You wrote:
"I ready and willing to look at this.
I want someone to work with me and assist me through. I don't really know, but it could take a while.
Have experience in being deeply honest and looking at myself for many years but still seem to have a big sense of "I".

Am grateful this is here.
I'm ready!

Bill

Hi Bill, sounds like you've done self inquiry. That is helpful, great stuff.
Let's orient to where you are at, regarding this process.
Is there a you?
How would you describe it?
Look forward to working with you, and if you would like to fill in some backstory where needed, that could be helpful.
Much love.

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Re: Hello Billy, your post is here.

Postby Bill » Thu Jan 05, 2012 5:30 am

Elizabeth - Thanks for working with me - I appreciate it greatly.
A little about me....

I live in Oregon, US. Pretty close to retirement. I work as a network tech for a local Govt. I am married and have been for 25+ yrs. Mostly happy but up and down like most marriages. A long time ago early 80's, I did a seminar similar to est or Lifespring and had a milestone event. You couldn't get out of the seminar without knowing what your stuff was. I got what mine was. I learned alot about who I was and what drove me. Learned that I gave my power away and didn't feel I was good enough. Also admitted I was alcoholic shortly after but didn't quit drinking then. Then within a year or so the circumstances came up in my life (funny how life does that) to enable me to see that I was going to be dead if I didn't quit soon. I wanted to live. I did quit and have been sober for a long time (28+ yrs) since then. Lots of AA and 12 step work. Also quit drugs then too.

About that time I had a friend who was into Da Free John. I had never seen anything like that before... I read a few of his books and was blown away. Lots of mixed feelings about him.... I remember the statement he made that stopped me in my tracks. "There is only God". My first introduction to non duality. They all say that now... It was the first time I had heard anything like that. I didn't go join his commune or anything like that but did read many other things during that time. Eventually I just moved slowly away from the spritual stuff except for going to AA for many years.

I went back to the seminars a few different times, these are 4 to 5 days and very intense, we did a couples one.... then worked on the backup team several times which is incredible from that side of things. It is probably similar to you folks seeing someone get it on here. I know that feeling. My heart softens when I do that work.

So this takes me up to a few years ago when I'm just feeling like I need to go back and be a backup person as I'm just not feeling good with life... can't really put my finger on what it is... This was about 3 years ago.... this time I felt even more open spiritually afterwards and when I came back home started looking on the internet for what's out there... then at my work they were having a large book sale for charity and I saw Echart's book "A New Earth" for 50 cents and I thought, "I've think I've heard about him...but he was on Oprah...got to be a lightweight or a fad or something... Oh what the heck... its 50 cents.. buy it"...

Things haven't been the same for me since then. There was kind of an opening up that took place and is still taking place since then. I have read all of his other books and many many other Non dual/Advaita authors. Such an abundance of good stuff is available now. I meditate when I first get up in the morning daily. I have a couple of
Echart books on tape and usually listen to that most of the time driving to and fro... I know the talk.. but am not walking the walk yet. I love the Buddha at the Gas Pump site, have listened to many interviews on there.... and saw a name on that site eventually brought me here..On New Year's Day!! I am surprised I hadn't seen or heard of this technique before.. Saw the Liberation Unleashed video on YouTube.... Very very nice! Listened to Ilona being interviewed by Tripp and the Wizard on their radio show and thought, I want what she has!
So here I am.

-----------------

Is there a you (me)? How would you describe it? (I'm going to be as honest as I know how with this stuff... its not pretty but it will be the truth about me)

You can tell by how many I's I have in the above that yes there is a me here and although intellectually I fully understand that I am not in charge, I really do think that I am. There are very brief periods of feeling oneness or just relaxing into the moment, especially in mediation, but usually right after that, I've got the reins back. I think that I need to be in control and if I don't, things will not turn out 'right'. I get pissed off at other drivers easily, sometimes for very little things. I have been able to turn around and bless them within a few seconds..good.. but my first reaction is of non-acceptance. I would like to say I don't worry about what people think of me, but that wouldn't be honest. This in some ways seems better than in my earlier days but the root feeling feels the same. And along with that there is the constant comparison and judgementalness of others and sometimes the feeling of not being good enough, especially with new people. I am fairly social at work and mix well with everyone although once in a while there will be someone who is difficult to get along with. I got the 'I' and I got a good dose of it.

I promise that all my post won't be this long!

Bill

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Re: Hello Billy, your post is here.

Postby Elizabeth » Thu Jan 05, 2012 2:05 pm

Hi Bill,
You've stumbled onto another program of rigorous honesty! They work, don't they?
Thank you for the introduction, I can see you've done lots of work, and we can reference some of it if we need to.
Don't worry about long posts. If you could post once a day (or more) that helps to keep us connected and in sync.

" I think that I need to be in control and if I don't, things will not turn out 'right'. I get pissed off at other drivers easily, sometimes for very little things. I have been able to turn around and bless them within a few seconds..good.. but my first reaction is of non-acceptance. I would like to say I don't worry about what people think of me, but that wouldn't be honest. This in some ways seems better than in my earlier days but the root feeling feels the same. And along with that there is the constant comparison and judgementalness of others and sometimes the feeling of not being good enough, especially with new people."

I notice in your writing that all the anger and suffering is in thoughts. And I know you are used to taking a personal inventory, so you are probably very clear on how thoughts lead to other thoughts and next, you have a long story that you are willing to defend to the death, and so on.

We are simply going to do further work with thoughts.
1/ Can you look carefully and tell me where they arise, for you?
Can you see a point of origin, in reality?

2/ Looking at the thoughts, do they all start out with an I attached, or does the I attach to the thought somewhere?
Here is a small exercise. Look at the computer. Is it truer to say, it is A computer? or a MY computer?
Can you attach a computer to a self? If so, how do we do it?

Much love, Elizabeth

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Re: Hello Billy, your post is here.

Postby Bill » Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:32 pm

Elizabeth,

I am much better at moving off my position than I have been in the past. I'm willing to be wrong now where I haven't been before. I don't especially like it but I can see the futility of having to be right past a point.. Sometimes I surprise myself that I surrender easily on an argument where I would not have done this in the past.


We are simply going to do further work with thoughts. 
1/ Can you look carefully and tell me where they arise, for you? 
Can you see a point of origin, in reality? 
Wow. Never 'thought' in that way before. Thoughts appear to be arising from literally right behind my eyes. One will come and then sometimes rapid fire, boom boom boom a whole succession of thoughts come. Is this what you're asking?
2/ Looking at the thoughts, do they all start out with an I attached, or does the I attach to the thought somewhere? 
This depends on the context of the thought. If I'm in nature and I see something and think something about it, there usually is no I attached (unless there is) Most all other thoughts do come as something to do with me or how something will affect me...
Here is a small exercise. Look at the computer. Is it truer to say, it is A computer? or a MY computer? 
Can you attach a computer to a self? If so, how do we do it?
If its the computer I own, yes there is a 'my' attached to it. I attach to it by the fact that I bought it and use it and have 'my' stuff on it.

Yes, I can see this... There is “I” and “my” in almost all things in my life but are they 'mine'? What do they have to do with the real 'me'. I see...

Bill

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Re: Hello Billy, your post is here.

Postby Elizabeth » Thu Jan 05, 2012 11:26 pm

Hi Bill,
So thoughts, they just arise. One after the other. Sounds like you are not in control of them? Is that true?
Some thoughts have an I attached. Some do not.
Some are about you, some are not.
Some thoughts seem to assert ownership. A computer (neutral) is now your computer (not neutral!)
1/ How do they do that? What mechanism reaches out and annexes something?
2/ Is ownership possible without a thought? or belief in a thought?
3/ Please look at the things, the people, and thoughts that you believe you own. In what way, if any, is the ownership real?

Thanks, Bill.

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Re: Hello Billy, your post is here.

Postby Bill » Fri Jan 06, 2012 7:07 am

Good day Elizabeth,

No, I am not in control of my thoughts. They just arise.. out of nowhere, somewhere. Good thoughts bad thoughts and everything in between. I used to think it meant something when I had a nasty thought but I know now its just a thought. That’s all. A thought. I used to try and control, slow down my thoughts in meditation but gave up on that and just try to let things be like they are. Sometimes its a little noisy but thats OK.
Some thoughts seem to assert ownership. A computer (neutral) is now your computer (not neutral!)
1/ How do they do that? What mechanism reaches out and annexes something?
It seems to not be the thought that does it, but ME who filters and interprets the thought and then claims something as mine or something to do with me. Reality is it’s just a thought. I add to the thought.
2/ Is ownership possible without a thought? or belief in a thought?
No, it would not be possible. Things just are. It’s ME who gives them ownership by thinking about them in a way that puts ownership on them.
3/ Please look at the things, the people, and thoughts that you believe you own. In what way, if any, is the ownership real?
In the conventional world the ownership is considered real. It’s my car, someone else doesn’t drive it. My house, I live in it. But in the reality of this moment, I can see there is no ownership. The stuff, people thoughts are just there. Arising. Then passing. They are mine only in the sense that I am aware of them. Not really mine in any concrete way.

I’m feeling this a bit!

Bill

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Re: Hello Billy, your post is here.

Postby Elizabeth » Fri Jan 06, 2012 2:52 pm

Hi Bill,
If you've read around the forum you probably know we look for an actual ME having the thoughts.
So as we look at the thoughts, we look behind, to see if there is an entity there that is owning and directing life, except as a thought.
You are not really in control of your thoughts, and you no longer 'own" them, put a lot of investment in them, especially the ones that seem negative.
You looked AT ownership, and it's just a thought.

Now how about the body? Is that owned, in reality, by a ME?
As you move around in your ordinary life, please check and see if you can find a self moving body around.
Walking, driving, typing, picking up a cup.
Is there a WHO living your life?
Or are there thoughts ABOUT everything, including a self, apparently living your life?
Crucial distinction.
You don't have to decide or believe anything at all, just look at the evidence. In life, in all your actions, keep returning to this focus on the thoughts as you move around. Simply keep checking if there is something real, besides a thought, that owns and directs the body.
And please write it down. Try stream of consciousness on a couple of things, like typing. Try all kinds of movements as you look.
If you pin the thoughts down and look at them, it's usually revealing.
Much love, Elizabeth

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Re: Hello Billy, your post is here.

Postby Bill » Fri Jan 06, 2012 10:26 pm

Now how about the body? Is that owned, in reality, by a ME?
As you move around in your ordinary life, please check and see if you can find a self moving body around.
Walking, driving, typing, picking up a cup.
Is there a WHO living your life?
Or are there thoughts ABOUT everything, including a self, apparently living your life?
Crucial distinction.
You don't have to decide or believe anything at all, just look at the evidence. In life, in all your actions, keep returning to this focus on the thoughts as you move around. Simply keep checking if there is something real, besides a thought, that owns and directs the body.
And please write it down. Try stream of consciousness on a couple of things, like typing. Try all kinds of movements as you look.
If you pin the thoughts down and look at them, it's usually revealing.
Much love, Elizabeth



At first it seems like the body is owned by me. But then upon really closely looking, the body doesn’t really seem to be owned by me.. I can direct the body to do things (go here, pick up this, etc) but the actual physical movement I don’t know how it happens…. it just happens. “I” don’t do it. Breathing just happens... My heart is beating but I’m not doing it. Something else other than “me” does that. Walking just walks…. “I” can direct my walking by thinking to go here or there but I don’t know how it happens…. something else does that…. the body eventually will not be. I can’t control that. It gets sick and other stuff… I am not in control of that either


typing


Look at screen…. fingers moving…doing their thing….mistake….think…. correct… thinking….fingers moving…. look at screen…feel the keyboard.... letters appearing on screen…..think…. distracted by sound... fingers moving fast...look back at screen.....
I can think and direct but I don’t know how the fingers actually move…. I am not moving them once they get started…

I was taking a walk this morning and felt that I was just walking and it was just happening. just walking This was just for a very short time (a few minutes) this was a different experience for me. Then when I came to a spot that I had to go right or left "I" kicked in and took over. But the physical walking doesn't appear to be done by "me".

I am starting to get a peek at this...
Your help is appreciated here.

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Re: Hello Billy, your post is here.

Postby Bill » Fri Jan 06, 2012 10:28 pm

Elizabeth - forgot to mention... read your blog! Nice.
I see you know Bill W too! Far out.

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Re: Hello Billy, your post is here.

Postby Elizabeth » Sat Jan 07, 2012 2:29 am

Friends of Bill, on all levels :-)
The stream of consciousness thing was nice.
More of that, that's how you look at the flow of life, as you (or it) moves around!
Looking, noting what is happening as it happens. Not adding anything extra, like a story About what happens. If you find a story, please write that down too, and examine it for truth. Not belief, truth. If you don't know something, that's the truth. Very simple looking and asking,it's hard to do simple things, for some reason.
You mentioned choice. Let's see if an entity, a separate self, apart from thought, chooses. Start with something simple.

Try raising your hand. Look at it very closely. Move it to the left. Now to the right.
Did a thought do that?
In reality? Did a thought OWN that? Tell you that a self chose to do that?

Now, pretend I just materialized in the room and threw a ball at your head. Watch the hand move, very quickly.
Does the hand choose to come up and catch the ball? or does it just rise and catch it? Without a thought?

Now, raise your hand and move it to the left. to the right...watch the thoughts.
Look for a self, something which is not just a thought, which is able to move your hand.

If you find a separate something that exists other than in thought, moving your hand, please let me know, and describe it.
You can try other movements during the day and see if you get different results. Note that the story about moving is a default one. Automated. Is it true?
Love, Elizabeth

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Re: Hello Billy, your post is here.

Postby Bill » Sat Jan 07, 2012 8:40 am

Try raising your hand. Look at it very closely. Move it to the left. Now to the right.
Did a thought do that?
In reality? Did a thought OWN that? Tell you that a self chose to do that?
The thought started the process but the hand seems to just move without thought.

Now, pretend I just materialized in the room and threw a ball at your head. Watch the hand move, very quickly.
Does the hand choose to come up and catch the ball? or does it just rise and catch it? Without a thought?
The hand just comes up and catches the ball reflexively without thinking.
Now, raise your hand and move it to the left. to the right...watch the thoughts.
Look for a self, something which is not just a thought, which is able to move your hand.
Can’t find a self moving the hand here.
These are very difficult for me to see what’s actually going on. It seems like the movement just happens without much thinking or direction from self. hard to see much thinking going on.
If you find a separate something that exists other than in thought, moving your hand, please let me know, and describe it.
You can try other movements during the day and see if you get different results. Note that the story about moving is a default one. Automated. Is it true?
I'm sorry Elizabeth. Did I miss something here?

Bill

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Re: Hello Billy, your post is here.

Postby Elizabeth » Sat Jan 07, 2012 1:03 pm

Hi Billy. You did not miss anything.
That seems normal :-)

It does seem, that without thought, hand moves. If we were being really normal, we would not question the next thought:
"I moved the hand"

This, if you look at it, seems to overlay the unquestioned BELIEF that a self moves the hand. You know it because the thought, "I moved the hand" refers to a self.
You say it a lot. People accept it. Reinforce it.
Look a bit circular to you?

Ownership is a thought and a story about an I :
-A computer> My computer. Which I paid for, from a job I work hard at. I'll replace it soon, I hope I find a good deal.

'I moved the hand' is a thought. Seems to be a story. Hand just moves.
Is it possible that many thoughts that own, and create, your experience of life, look like this same circular claiming?
I think 'I' therefore I must have one? Somewhere? Even if I can't find it?
Easy to test out.

Today, walk around and look for this I. You seem to find it in thoughts. Except as a thought, can you find one?

Much love, Billy.

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Re: Hello Billy, your post is here.

Postby Bill » Sun Jan 08, 2012 6:56 am

Is it possible that many thoughts that own, and create, your experience of life, look like this same circular claiming?
I think 'I' therefore I must have one? Somewhere? Even if I can't find it?
Easy to test out.

Today, walk around and look for this I. You seem to find it in thoughts. Except as a thought, can you find one?


This I is so prevalent in all my thoughts… No matter what comes up in life, it always refers back to me and what I will get, have, feel, become by it. Its like whatever I see gets stuck to me and I claim it as mine. Like glue almost. I don’t want to let it go. This is the root. If I am really as honest as I can be there are just very few thoughts that don’t somehow come back to the ‘I’. No, they all do. The whole thing is about me no matter how spiritual I try to be, how much I meditate, how many books I read….. its all about “me”!

Just watching the thoughts as they come up told me this. Just seeing what goes on with a thought and how it nearly always refers back to the “I” and gets claimed by me as 'MINE'. Very few non I related thoughts .

No, I cannot find an I other than in thinking. But it is all over the place there.

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Re: Hello Billy, your post is here.

Postby Elizabeth » Sun Jan 08, 2012 12:45 pm

You are looking right at the construction of an I.
You can't find an I other than in thought. Or as we say around here, 'I' is like Santa Claus. A lot of thoughts and stories about a character, that kids believe in. Because they believe he is real. Until the evidence mounts up!
This character is claiming to live your life. Others accept the thoughts about Billy, too.
But the evidence is mounting up.
You don't have to lose the character. It serves a purpose. You see how it's constructed, thought by thought.
But if you look for a self, and find nothing, please look at the nothing. Right at it.
LOOK behind the illusion and tell me, what do you see?
THAT is why we are here.

Love, Elizabeth.

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Re: Hello Billy, your post is here.

Postby Bill » Sun Jan 08, 2012 6:23 pm

Before, I thought if I just read the right book, or acted a certain way, meditated long enough, had the right teacher, went to the right training.....that I would eventually get it. Somehow, someway, I would be zapped, wouldn't have to do any real work, and that would be it. What crap! I see now this is hard work. Its what you don't want to do or see or even go close to.....Seeing the first few questions asked to me the other day, I thought, Oh shit, this is not going to be a ride in the park. Who wants to really look at their life and see that all I've been believing about myself is just built on a mis-perception of what I really am. Which is what?... I really don't know! I don't what it is less now than they other day. The “I” still feels kinda murky... its there, a little weaker, but still there. Then it seems to fade. Then its back. Still feels like there is something like what I've heard called an 'entity' here.

Later...
I see now that "I" can't get it. There is no I to get anything, yet I still seem to latch on to everything as if that is the salvation to home. But I am already home. Never left. Just looking wrongly. Like all the rest of the world. Fairy tales. Universal wrong ID. Looking out there.
Its not out there. Its not really 'in' here either. It just is.

What feels like is behind the illusion of the I is just what is really going on. Seeing things , hearing things. Moving around. Life without “my” manipulation. Quiet. Space.


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