Guiding request for Driddhamati

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akampiya
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Guiding request for Driddhamati

Postby akampiya » Wed May 14, 2014 7:02 pm

Hi there Dridhamati, I'm here, lets go!
Akampiya

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dridhamati
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Re: Guiding request for Driddhamati

Postby dridhamati » Wed May 14, 2014 9:50 pm

Hi Akampiya,

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed (LU) and thanks for the invitation to guide you!

Before we get started, a few points…

… about the process:
1. Could you please confirm that you have read the Disclaimer on the home page of the LU site?
2. Let's aim to write once a day if possible (making allowances for time zones), even if it's short. It is a good way to keep up the momentum.
3. Responses require utmost honesty.
4. Responses are best formulated from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). If you are unfamiliar with Direct Experience please let me know.

… about posting responses:
1. When clicking 'Quote' (in a post) or 'Post Reply' at the bottom of the page you get the word processor-like editor where you can type an answer. You can also preview the answer before it is posted. Experiment as much as needed. Nothing gets posted unless the 'Submit' button is clicked.
2. Best write your post in your favourite word processor, then copy & paste it into the editor on the LU forum, then format it as you wish. That way you won't lose your work half-way through (which can happen if there is a hiccup with the Internet connection...)
3. Please learn to use the 'Quote' facility, it's a very useful tool.
4. Please click the 'subscribe topic' link at the very bottom of the page to ensure you get an email whenever a reply comes in.

And finally, in the response to this first post could you please say a little about what brings you here, and particularly what you think/hope/expect could come out of this process, if successful?

Looking forward to working with you!

All the best,
Dridhamati

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akampiya
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Re: Guiding request for Dridhamati

Postby akampiya » Wed May 14, 2014 11:29 pm

Hello there Dridhamati,
I am home from study 10.30 in the morning [ LU website show 9.30].

I think you said that livng in Colmar you are 11 hours behind NZ ?

I often wake early in the morning [ form 5.30] but go to be early too [ about 9.30]

If you are 11 hours behingd us it will 11.30 in the evening you time, Wednesday ?

catch you soon perhaps or tomorrow Thrsday ?

Akampiya

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akampiya
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Re: Guiding request for Driddhamati

Postby akampiya » Thu May 15, 2014 12:08 am

I THINK WE HAVE IT,
Yes I have read the disclaimer.
Thank you for taking me on.
Yes I think I am developing and understanding of direct experience.

thanks for the tips re 'subscribe topic' etc.


What I think, hope , expect could come out of this process . .. . ..
' I have very strong rational materalistic conditioning[ family, education, effectiveness in getting thru life].

Direct experience, my own personal experience, body experience, creativity, 'spiritual life' and the arts are all
areas I have had to work hard to be aware of consciousnesly and accept.

Despite my condtioning I seem to have a propensity for 'intuitive' nonverbal functioning
over which I 'drop' strong frames of congniton, explaination etc.

'I ', my self identity loves explaining and organizing things. I am quiet attached to this propensity and these habits fights with and dominates direct experience.

[ Over he years I have had a number of experiences of great freedom, spaciousnesses, laughter, 'knowing'
alll of which I have ahd little capasity to be with. Allow. They seem to just 'drop' upon me.
I don't know WHAT it is 'I know' and so sramble back to the comfort of protective frames.]

All these tendencies are weaker [ or more cunning?] now as I have been working on them for years.
Anyway it would be lovely if these habiat were desolved. I have seen others who have done the DP or LU process become 'lighter' and less weighed down by their habits. Seems a good idea to me.'

With anticipation
Akampiya
Hi Akampiya,

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed (LU) and thanks for the invitation to guide you!

Before we get started, a few points…

… about the process:
1. Could you please confirm that you have read the Disclaimer on the home page of the LU site?
2. Let's aim to write once a day if possible (making allowances for time zones), even if it's short. It is a good way to keep up the momentum.
3. Responses require utmost honesty.
4. Responses are best formulated from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). If you are unfamiliar with Direct Experience please let me know.

… about posting responses:
1. When clicking 'Quote' (in a post) or 'Post Reply' at the bottom of the page you get the word processor-like editor where you can type an answer. You can also preview the answer before it is posted. Experiment as much as needed. Nothing gets posted unless the 'Submit' button is clicked.
2. Best write your post in your favourite word processor, then copy & paste it into the editor on the LU forum, then format it as you wish. That way you won't lose your work half-way through (which can happen if there is a hiccup with the Internet connection...)
3. Please learn to use the 'Quote' facility, it's a very useful tool.
4. Please click the 'subscribe topic' link at the very bottom of the page to ensure you get an email whenever a reply comes in.

And finally, in the response to this first post could you please say a little about what brings you here, and particularly what you think/hope/expect could come out of this process, if successful?

Looking forward to working with you!

All the best,
Dridhamati

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dridhamati
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Location: Christchurch, NZ

Re: Guiding request for Driddhamati

Postby dridhamati » Thu May 15, 2014 10:26 am

Hi Akampiya,
I THINK WE HAVE IT,
Yes I have read the disclaimer.
Thank you for taking me on.
Yes I think I am developing and understanding of direct experience.
thanks for the tips re 'subscribe topic' etc.
Indeed we're all go.
Thank you for confirming the 'official' questions, and you're welcome: taking you on, tips.

And thank you also for your detailed post.

One of the wonderful aspects of Direct Experience is that it knows no boundaries: experience is experience, whatever the experience is.

One thing that is important for the success of this inquiry, is keeping an openness about the process and its results. And this implies setting aside expectations, views, and even taboos.

So for example:
Anyway it would be lovely if these habiat were desolved.
There is no promise that this will happen through this dialogue.
However at the end of this inquiry there will be a deep realisation into the nature of those habits.
The dissolving process tends to come 'later' in my experience. We can revisit this at the end of the inquiry, is that is still relevant.

There's a great little metaphor that is used on LU: that of Santa Claus.
What we're about to do is expose Santa as a fairy tale. So thoroughly that not only it will be seen that there IS no Santa, and also that THERE NEVER WAS.

So now when you read this:
“I”, “me”, “mine”, “myself” is a fairy tale. “I” does not exist, and never had any inherent existence ever.
What does the sentence elicit?

All the best,
Dridhamati

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akampiya
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Re: Guiding request for Driddhamati

Postby akampiya » Thu May 15, 2014 8:48 pm

Hi there Drihamati thank you for being so patient, I atill can not see the 'subscribe topic' or 'unsbscribe' links at the bottom of the paage after Board INDEX :(

The link you gave me in the email last night got me straight here this morning :)

Good to know that that sense of being habit bound may not disappear instantly. Damm, I guess you are saying on going mindfulness ?

That 'I' 'me' and 'mine' are a fairy tale and never existed elicits both a sense of delight and moving towards and a sense of cluching.

Verbally I say ' yes but they FEEL real, just as it SEEMS real/ true that the sun moves around the earth'
that is what my senses tell me and my reality is made up pretty much by my senses.

And I have always thought the 'spirit' of Father Christmas IS real . .. generosity ? . . . different beings / parents etc actually activate the spirit.

Akampiya

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akampiya
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Re: Guiding request for Driddhamati

Postby akampiya » Thu May 15, 2014 8:49 pm

Hi there Drihamati thank you for being so patient, I atill can not see the 'subscribe topic' or 'unsbscribe' links at the bottom of the paage after Board INDEX :(

The link you gave me in the email last night got me straight here this morning :)

Good to know that that sense of being habit bound may not disappear instantly. Damm, I guess you are saying on going mindfulness ?

That 'I' 'me' and 'mine' are a fairy tale and never existed elicits both a sense of delight and moving towards and a sense of cluching.

Verbally I say ' yes but they FEEL real, just as it SEEMS real/ true that the sun moves around the earth'
that is what my senses tell me and my reality is made up pretty much by my senses.

And I have always thought the 'spirit' of Father Christmas IS real . .. generosity ? . . . different beings / parents etc actually activate the spirit.

Akampiya

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dridhamati
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Location: Christchurch, NZ

Re: Guiding request for Driddhamati

Postby dridhamati » Thu May 15, 2014 10:23 pm

Hi Akampiya,
I atill can not see the 'subscribe topic' or 'unsbscribe' links at the bottom of the paage after Board INDEX :(
The link you gave me in the email last night got me straight here this morning :)
Are you OK with carrying on with the link?
Also do you receive an email notification when there's a new post from me?
That 'I' 'me' and 'mine' are a fairy tale and never existed elicits both a sense of delight and moving towards and a sense of cluching.
Verbally I say ' yes but they FEEL real, just as it SEEMS real/ true that the sun moves around the earth'
that is what my senses tell me and my reality is made up pretty much by my senses.
OK, right to the heart of it!
Can you please tell me what senses tell you that “I” is real?
And
Can you please tell me what senses tell you that the sun moves around the earth?
And I have always thought the 'spirit' of Father Christmas IS real . .. generosity ? . . . different beings / parents etc actually activate the spirit.
The 'spirit' of Santa may arise in one's mind, but … does it make Santa real, in the way a child believes it?
Anyway this was just a metaphor.

All the best,
Dridhamati

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akampiya
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Re: Guiding request for Driddhamati

Postby akampiya » Fri May 16, 2014 3:07 am

Hi there Drihamati thank you for being so patient, I atill can not see the 'subscribe topic' or 'unsbscribe' links at the bottom of the paage after Board INDEX :(

The link you gave me in the email last night got me straight here this morning :)

Good to know that that sense of being habit bound may not disappear instantly. Damm, I guess you are saying on going mindfulness ?

That 'I' 'me' and 'mine' are a fairy tale and never existed elicits both a sense of delight and moving towards and a sense of cluching.

Verbally I say ' yes but they FEEL real, just as it SEEMS real/ true that the sun moves around the earth'
that is what my senses tell me and my reality is made up pretty much by my senses.

And I have always thought the 'spirit' of Father Christmas IS real . .. generosity ? . . . different beings / parents etc actually activate the spirit.

Akampiya
Thank you Dridhamati, the link you gave me is saved as a 'favooooiur ' and it works well. No email notification but that is OK.

All the senses tell me 'I' is real,

I see from this point in space and have pleasant and unpleasant responses based on 'my' condtioning. Without technology I can not see what another person sees, although I can use my imagination/ cognitons to do this [ see what another sees].
Same with 'inner' subjective sense of sight . . . I can 'see' blue red green, hills and people. I can imagin what you imagin but this is not as vivid as 'my own' ', 'sense of blue'
Same with all the senses.. . .it is ME who suffers when my back is out, I feel the pressure, the pain, it is my muscules which spasm and harden, my leg which shortens ME who gets tired.

'My' senses of Touch, smell and vision seem very vivid and immediate. Sound too but I can often 'tune out' to sound.
I suppose all the senses habituate. . .. pale with exposure.

Same with the sun going around the earth , sight and touch/ warmth tells me the sun is up there, started in the east and is moving across the sky. Hard to believe we are going around the sun, but I CAN with effort imagin it, rather than just 'taking their word for it'.

And Santa, OK it's the literalism of the child that the metaphore is addressing ? sensory based and flesh and blood man with a bag of presents?

The inner tangle and athe outer tangle, tell me Dridhamati, how CAN this tangle be untanged?
AK

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dridhamati
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Re: Guiding request for Driddhamati

Postby dridhamati » Fri May 16, 2014 9:25 am

Hi Akampiya,
Thank you Dridhamati, the link you gave me is saved as a 'favooooiur ' and it works well. No email notification but that is OK.
Great. I'll look into the 'missing link' and let you know.

Meanwhile let's carry on...

Thank you for the detailed description of how you reach the conclusion that the “I” (or “self”) is real, and that the earth revolves around the sun, and other things. It's a great basis to start.

What is written is an elaborate mixture, of sensed experience drowned in thought concepts.

For example, in the sentence “Same with the sun going around the earth , sight and touch/ warmth tells me the sun is up there, started in the east and is moving across the sky.
Here, the direct sense experience:
Sight – a round yellow thing up there is seen.
Touch – warmth is felt.
Here, the mind first labels then constructs theories:
Mind – memory tells 'round yellow thing is the sun, and up there is the sky'.
Mind – memory (inference) tells 'sun moves across the sky, and is the origin of warmth'.

Can you see what's going on? Can you see the difference between what is actually experienced, and what is being inferred, or constructed?

Let's do a little exercise:

1. find a flat, even surface, something like a table top,
2. clear the table top of all objects,
3. then place a mug on the middle of that table top
Now-
4. sit comfortably on a chair by the table,
5. look at the mug,
6. make note of what is seen,
Then-
7. close both eyes,
8. make note of what is seen,
9. open the eyes again.

Question: was the mug still on the table when the eyes were shut?
Please explain the answer.

The inner tangle and athe outer tangle, tell me Dridhamati, how CAN this tangle be untanged?
'How' will be unique to 'Akampiya'. Please ask again later if it's still relevant.

All the best,
Dridhamati

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akampiya
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Re: Guiding request for Driddhamati

Postby akampiya » Sat May 17, 2014 8:52 am

Hi Akampiya,
Yes Dridhamati , I see the difference between direct expereince and what is infered and interpreted. .. . . I did the glass [mug] exercise and when my eyes were shut I had no direct, immediate experience of the glass, so "was it there ['in my direct immediate experience ] when my eyes were closed?" NO only in memory or after image or concept.
I feel a bit anxious about where this could be heading:)

Hope you had a good Buddha Day in whatever way it came to be for you Dridhamati
oxoxo AK
Thank you Dridhamati, the link you gave me is saved as a 'favooooiur ' and it works well. No email notification but that is OK.
Great. I'll look into the 'missing link' and let you know.

Meanwhile let's carry on...

Thank you for the detailed description of how you reach the conclusion that the “I” (or “self”) is real, and that the earth revolves around the sun, and other things. It's a great basis to start.

What is written is an elaborate mixture, of sensed experience drowned in thought concepts.

For example, in the sentence “Same with the sun going around the earth , sight and touch/ warmth tells me the sun is up there, started in the east and is moving across the sky.
Here, the direct sense experience:
Sight – a round yellow thing up there is seen.
Touch – warmth is felt.
Here, the mind first labels then constructs theories:
Mind – memory tells 'round yellow thing is the sun, and up there is the sky'.
Mind – memory (inference) tells 'sun moves across the sky, and is the origin of warmth'.

Can you see what's going on? Can you see the difference between what is actually experienced, and what is being inferred, or constructed?

Let's do a little exercise:

1. find a flat, even surface, something like a table top,
2. clear the table top of all objects,
3. then place a mug on the middle of that table top
Now-
4. sit comfortably on a chair by the table,
5. look at the mug,
6. make note of what is seen,
Then-
7. close both eyes,
8. make note of what is seen,
9. open the eyes again.

Question: was the mug still on the table when the eyes were shut?
Please explain the answer.

The inner tangle and athe outer tangle, tell me Dridhamati, how CAN this tangle be untanged?
'How' will be unique to 'Akampiya'. Please ask again later if it's still relevant.

All the best,
Dridhamati

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dridhamati
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Location: Christchurch, NZ

Re: Guiding request for Driddhamati

Postby dridhamati » Sat May 17, 2014 10:44 am

Hi Akampiya,
I did the glass [mug] exercise and when my eyes were shut I had no direct, immediate experience of the glass, so "was it there ['in my direct immediate experience ] when my eyes were closed?" NO only in memory or after image or concept.
Yes, that matches the experience here. Tank you Akampiya.

Realising this distinction -what is direct(ly) experience(d), and what is created as labels, concepts, etc.- is essential for this inquiry.

So essential that here's another little exercise:

1. find a flat, even surface, something like a table top,
2. clear the table top of all objects,
3. then place a mug on the middle of that table top
Now-
4. sit comfortably on a chair by the table,
5. look at the mug,
6. make note -only- of what is seen, what impacts the sense of vision,
7. report in the next post.

Note: please report only what is perceived -down to the most elementary description possible.
I feel a bit anxious about where this could be heading:)
Experience says it's a good sign: something is moving. :)
However please monitor this anxiety. If it gets too much let me know.
Hope you had a good Buddha Day in whatever way it came to be for you Dridhamati
Likewise.

All the best,
Dridhamati

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akampiya
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Re: Guiding request for Driddhamati

Postby akampiya » Sat May 17, 2014 9:41 pm

Hi Akampiya,
Hello there Dridhamati,
When I look at the mug with the most elementary observations all I see is patteerns of light, everything else is interpretion based on experience!
AK
I did the glass [mug] exercise and when my eyes were shut I had no direct, immediate experience of the glass, so "was it there ['in my direct immediate experience ] when my eyes were closed?" NO only in memory or after image or concept.
Yes, that matches the experience here. Tank you Akampiya.

Realising this distinction -what is direct(ly) experience(d), and what is created as labels, concepts, etc.- is essential for this inquiry.

So essential that here's another little exercise:

1. find a flat, even surface, something like a table top,
2. clear the table top of all objects,
3. then place a mug on the middle of that table top
Now-
4. sit comfortably on a chair by the table,
5. look at the mug,
6. make note -only- of what is seen, what impacts the sense of vision,
7. report in the next post.

Note: please report only what is perceived -down to the most elementary description possible.
I feel a bit anxious about where this could be heading:)
Experience says it's a good sign: something is moving. :)
However please monitor this anxiety. If it gets too much let me know.
Hope you had a good Buddha Day in whatever way it came to be for you Dridhamati
Likewise.

All the best,
Dridhamati

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dridhamati
Posts: 642
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2012 10:09 pm
Location: Christchurch, NZ

Re: Guiding request for Driddhamati

Postby dridhamati » Sat May 17, 2014 11:24 pm

Hi Akampiya,
When I look at the mug with the most elementary observations all I see is patteerns of light, everything else is interpretion based on experience!
This is clearly a good grasp of the distinction between what is direct(ly) experience(d), and what is created as labels, concepts, etc. Thank you.

Now the next exercise:
- sit by a table,
- relax the body,
- raise the right hand so that it is in front of the eyes,
- simply observe the hand,
- work out a mental picture of the shape of the hand, from what is seen.

When there is a good mental picture of the shape of the hand:
- lay the hand flat on the table,
- close the eyes,
- feel the points of contact on the hand,
- work out a new mental picture of the shape of the hand, from the points of contact.

Are the two mental pictures identical?
Which mental picture is more accurate than the other?


All the best,
Dridhamati

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akampiya
Posts: 55
Joined: Tue May 13, 2014 5:23 am

Re: Guiding request for Driddhamati

Postby akampiya » Sun May 18, 2014 8:17 pm

Hi Akampiya,
[quAre the two mental pictures identical?
Which mental picture is more accurate than the other

No Dridhamati the two mental pictures are very different and neither is a very accurate match with my idea of my hand.
The hand on table experience and the after image are SO un 'hand' like.
Similarly with the view up in the air in front of my face not to mention the after image . . . . . how hillarous concepts are. . .. . all that diverse information integrated and called 'hand'.

Goodmorning dridhmati, thank you for your guiding, I feel both delighted and physiologically stressed [ eyelid flicker, heart pounds], not at all unpleasant . . .. great having you there I have explored this territory in different ways over the years and always feel I get 'stuck int he birth canel' . . . .. THATS unpleasant.

Go well
Akampiya on Monday morning



?ote="akampiya"]When I look at the mug with the most elementary observations all I see is patteerns of light, everything else is interpretion based on experience!
This is clearly a good grasp of the distinction between what is direct(ly) experience(d), and what is created as labels, concepts, etc. Thank you.

Now the next exercise:
- sit by a table,
- relax the body,
- raise the right hand so that it is in front of the eyes,
- simply observe the hand,
- work out a mental picture of the shape of the hand, from what is seen.

When there is a good mental picture of the shape of the hand:
- lay the hand flat on the table,
- close the eyes,
- feel the points of contact on the hand,
- work out a new mental picture of the shape of the hand, from the points of contact.

Are the two mental pictures identical?
Which mental picture is more accurate than the other?


All the best,
Dridhamati[/quote]


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