Are you ready?

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Moonlight
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Are you ready?

Postby Moonlight » Tue Jan 03, 2012 10:22 pm

If you're ready to see through the illusion of self, post here.
Life...is all there is. Wonderfully ordinary, extraordinarily wonderful.
http://wakingfromdelusion.blogspot.com/

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tubameister
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Re: Are you ready?

Postby tubameister » Wed Jan 04, 2012 12:52 am

I was hesitant to reply, because I don't know if I've done enough research, but hell, I guess now's as good a time as ever. How shall we begin?
Propel, propel, propel your craft,
Gently down liquid solution.
Ecstatically, ecstatically, ecstatically, ecstatically,
Existence is but an illusion.
~ King Friday XIII (Fred Rogers)

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Moonlight
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Re: Are you ready?

Postby Moonlight » Wed Jan 04, 2012 8:13 am

Thank you for replying, Tubameister! And no matter about research, it's a good thing. Sometimes prior knowledge and expectations get in the way, so we ask people anyway to put aside all readings and knowledge.

Few things first though:
1. I'd like you to reply with 100% honesty and from your own experience. It really doesn't work if you repeat stuff you read, or say what you think is the 'correct' answer. There are no 'right' or 'wrong' answers here. Only true ones.
2. Please stay focused and try to write at least once a day. There might be distractions or whatever, but please keep this a priority.
3. Stay with me till you're done, even if you want to leave :).

Can I have a first name, if that's ok?

If you're good with the above, then tell me, what does a 'self' mean to you? And what are your expectations from this inquiry?
Life...is all there is. Wonderfully ordinary, extraordinarily wonderful.
http://wakingfromdelusion.blogspot.com/

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tubameister
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Re: Are you ready?

Postby tubameister » Wed Jan 04, 2012 8:17 pm

Sure! I'm ready to let this play out. I'm John, by the way.

To me, the self consists of whatever one's field of awareness is focusing on in the moment. This process is entirely deterministic, and all you've got to do, really, is enjoy the ride.

What I've come to expect from my inquiry is a subtle redefinition in the way I interpret language, especially with words like 'I', 'you', and 'self'. I'm not sure what those new definitions will be, nor if they'll work, but the thought excites me!
Propel, propel, propel your craft,
Gently down liquid solution.
Ecstatically, ecstatically, ecstatically, ecstatically,
Existence is but an illusion.
~ King Friday XIII (Fred Rogers)

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Moonlight
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Re: Are you ready?

Postby Moonlight » Wed Jan 04, 2012 8:36 pm

Great, John, I'm happy to do this with you!

Now that we've gone over what you expectations are, let's put them aside for the time being.

Could you write a little more about the self, and what it means? Write everything that comes to mind. I have to know where you are regarding this inquiry, so we can work together, and I didn't get too much from your last explanation...
Life...is all there is. Wonderfully ordinary, extraordinarily wonderful.
http://wakingfromdelusion.blogspot.com/

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tubameister
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Re: Are you ready?

Postby tubameister » Thu Jan 05, 2012 7:31 pm

Could you write a little more about the self, and what it means? Write everything that comes to mind. I have to know where you are regarding this inquiry, so we can work together, and I didn't get too much from your last explanation...
Sure thing. To be honest I felt I hadn't written enough, but had to run, so I submitted it without knowing I couldn't edit later. I'll write my posts out in a text editor and save them in the future.

To me, the self consists of whatever one's field of awareness is focusing on in the moment. This includes all sensations and thoughts. If there is a memory in your brain that is not being accessed in the moment, then it is not part of your self. It is part of what defines you as a person, but it is not part of your self. If there is something happening in the world that you are not aware of, then that is not a part of your self either, though it may very well be a part of someone else's if they're aware of it. If you are reading a philosophy book, then the feeling of the pages on your hands, the branches of thought that spring up when you tap into a new idea, the feeling of surprise when your world flops over itself, is all a part of your self.

I also believe that this process is entirely deterministic. It does not depend on a 'free will'. If I were asked if I had free will, I would answer "Mu." If you haven't heard of the concept of mu, read this. To be brief, mu is third possible logical term equal to yes and no which means you've asked the wrong question. I feel it'd be better to say that we have a fixed will, the will towards happiness. And that will never changes. Everything we do, everything our awareness focuses on, everything our self is, is trying to attain happiness.

To be honest, I've felt mighty content with this philosophy for a long while, and almost feel that all that's left to do is be content with the unanswerables (Why am I conscious? Why am I in this skin-bag and not that skin-bag?), keep practicing meditation and mindfulness to be more in the moment (though how could one ever not be in the moment?),cease any search for this 'enlightenment' and just live the happy life (though the search is a part of life as well).

Shake me up!
Propel, propel, propel your craft,
Gently down liquid solution.
Ecstatically, ecstatically, ecstatically, ecstatically,
Existence is but an illusion.
~ King Friday XIII (Fred Rogers)

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Moonlight
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Location: Pakistan

Re: Are you ready?

Postby Moonlight » Thu Jan 05, 2012 8:08 pm

Interesting, John. But supposing I were to say to you that this self which you talk about, actually doesn't exist at all!

Thoughts are arising. Experiencing is happening. Body is there. Mind is there. But "you" do not exist, in any form, what comes up If you consider this?
Life...is all there is. Wonderfully ordinary, extraordinarily wonderful.
http://wakingfromdelusion.blogspot.com/

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tubameister
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Re: Are you ready?

Postby tubameister » Fri Jan 06, 2012 2:03 am

Interesting, John. But supposing I were to say to you that this self which you talk about, actually doesn't exist at all!

Thoughts are arising. Experiencing is happening. Body is there. Mind is there. But "you" do not exist, in any form, what comes up If you consider this?
Well, thoughts are arising from the stimuli I'm receiving filtering through my brain. That's entirely physical, along with the body and mind.

'Experiencing', to me, is a process that arises when consciousness watches the thoughts, sensations, and feelings flowing through the brain.

And you say 'I' do not exist, in any form...

I'm assuming when you say 'you', it's the same thing as if I say 'my self'. For a second, I wanted to say that if my self didn't exist, then nothing could, but then I realized that my self merely consists of the focus of my awareness, it's not the field of awareness itself.

From this perspective, it looks like 'self' is merely a label I slapped on a process (just like 'experiencing' is). I guess I forgot something in my original definition, then. Although the self consists of whatever one's field of awareness is focusing on in the moment, it is more than the sum of its parts. The difference between 'the self' and 'whatever one's field of awareness is focusing on in the moment' is the reason why we ask questions like 'Why am I in this skin-bag, and not that skin-bag?'. The self, to me, includes not just the focus of awareness, but consciousness itself. If you were to tell me that the self doesn't exist, I would have to ask you "...then why am I conscious?"
Propel, propel, propel your craft,
Gently down liquid solution.
Ecstatically, ecstatically, ecstatically, ecstatically,
Existence is but an illusion.
~ King Friday XIII (Fred Rogers)

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Moonlight
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Location: Pakistan

Re: Are you ready?

Postby Moonlight » Fri Jan 06, 2012 12:44 pm

Well, thoughts are arising from the stimuli I'm receiving filtering through my brain. That's entirely physical, along with the body and mind.

'Experiencing', to me, is a process that arises when consciousness watches the thoughts, sensations, and feelings flowing through the brain.

From this perspective, it looks like 'self' is merely a label I slapped on a process (just like 'experiencing' is).
You got it, brother! But then, you go on to say, "Although the self consists of whatever one's field of awareness is focusing on in the moment, it is more than the sum of its parts." Can you actually find a separation, a border between the 'focus of the field of awareness' and awareness itself? Can you actually find the experiencer, apart from as a thought?
The self, to me, includes not just the focus of awareness, but consciousness itself. If you were to tell me that the self doesn't exist, I would have to ask you "...then why am I conscious?"
"You" are conscious because consciousness is. But what made it 'your' consciousness?
Life...is all there is. Wonderfully ordinary, extraordinarily wonderful.
http://wakingfromdelusion.blogspot.com/

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tubameister
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Re: Are you ready?

Postby tubameister » Sat Jan 07, 2012 1:02 am

So I scratched my arm and rubbed my feet and moved my focus from one to the other, seeing how it felt to watch my awareness change focus, and no, I couldn't find any separation between my awareness and it's focus. Awareness seems to 'become' whatever it focuses on. But it can't be doing the focusing, the physical processes in the brain are. The awareness, or consciousness, just is. The question 'why' is immaterial, I think, since it arises from pure curiosity, and an answer either way wouldn't affect my life much (though it would be nice to know). It's not 'my' consciousness because there is no 'me' other than the consciousness to possess the consciousness. I am consciousness. I am awareness.

And I know this, but it doesn't seem to grant me any more security past that I got from knowing everything's deterministic.
Propel, propel, propel your craft,
Gently down liquid solution.
Ecstatically, ecstatically, ecstatically, ecstatically,
Existence is but an illusion.
~ King Friday XIII (Fred Rogers)

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Moonlight
Posts: 389
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2011 6:36 pm
Location: Pakistan

Re: Are you ready?

Postby Moonlight » Sat Jan 07, 2012 12:46 pm

Hey there, John, unfortunately or fortunately, the aim of this inquiry is not to give security, it is to see through illusion to reality. And in that process, we find that the person looking for that security doesn't exist. Then, the need for finding security and the need for answers falls away too.

I often quote Ilona as I find it's such a great insight. "Real is that which does not disappear when you stop believing in it".

So, drop all your thoughts, all your stories, all your expectations and what you've read. And tell me, what is left? A sense of 'being-ness'? An awareness, alive-ness? Is it personal or impersonal? Does the being-ness say that it is you? Or is it another thought which comes to claim ownership, that I am awareness?
Life...is all there is. Wonderfully ordinary, extraordinarily wonderful.
http://wakingfromdelusion.blogspot.com/

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Moonlight
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Re: Are you ready?

Postby Moonlight » Sun Jan 08, 2012 12:43 pm

Hey John, where are you?
Life...is all there is. Wonderfully ordinary, extraordinarily wonderful.
http://wakingfromdelusion.blogspot.com/

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tubameister
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Re: Are you ready?

Postby tubameister » Sun Jan 08, 2012 4:22 pm

I am here! I just keep changing what I want to write each time I come back to it...

I'll have something for you soon! Either within a few hours or tonight.
Propel, propel, propel your craft,
Gently down liquid solution.
Ecstatically, ecstatically, ecstatically, ecstatically,
Existence is but an illusion.
~ King Friday XIII (Fred Rogers)

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tubameister
Posts: 30
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2012 5:43 am

Re: Are you ready?

Postby tubameister » Mon Jan 09, 2012 3:12 am

I looked in the dictionary, and every definition of real there was could be read in a way that fit with that quote: "Real is that which does not disappear when you stop believing in it" I like it a lot! I took a while before it clicked (or at least I think it clicked)

The only thing that remains when you stop believing in it is you! If you tried to claim ownership of this 'you' then you'd be using a thought that isn't really real! Is this the beginning of what you mean? If it is, it looks like it leads to some pretty hilarious conclusions (in the good way! the spiritually-hilarious way! I'm sure you know what I mean)
Propel, propel, propel your craft,
Gently down liquid solution.
Ecstatically, ecstatically, ecstatically, ecstatically,
Existence is but an illusion.
~ King Friday XIII (Fred Rogers)

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Moonlight
Posts: 389
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2011 6:36 pm
Location: Pakistan

Re: Are you ready?

Postby Moonlight » Mon Jan 09, 2012 4:12 am

Wonderful! Yes it's pretty hilarious, and sad at the same time. we live our whole lives based on misconceptions, layers ans layers of it. Our entire world works from that lie. Someone called it an all-pervading conspiracy. Oh well. Life is what it is, and we each have our roles to play.

But listen, when you say 'all that remains is you', why 'you'? Feel it, is it a personal or an impersonal aliveness? Does it tell you that it is you when you dont have a thought about it? When you stop believing that it is you, or putting a label on it? Remember, the mind is like a labeling machine. Labels are useful, but not necessarily true!
Life...is all there is. Wonderfully ordinary, extraordinarily wonderful.
http://wakingfromdelusion.blogspot.com/


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