guiding for Doff,

[smudge]

Make sure you take a read/look at the disclaimer and video on this page: http://www.liberationunleashed.com/

Good morning Hecate,

Thank you of for your full introduction, sounds like quite a time, I am glad you met someone who could resonate with your experiences.

I am delighted to guide you even though you sound well along the way, first just read below, thanks.

Hello Doff (shall I call you Doff?)

Before we begin can we agree:
We both agree to post at least once a day, unless we let each other know otherwise.
I will ask you questions and you will respond with upmost honesty. Responses are best from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress.
Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
Lastly, Please learn to use the quote function; instructions are located in the link below this line: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660”

Then, write me any expectations you have about what seeing through the illusion of self fully will be like, or if you have seen what it is like,

Warm wishes
Smudge

[kay tremayne]

spacious and free
warm wishes Doff

[smudge]

Hi Doff,
Glad you managed to find your way here :-)

So you expect seeing through the illusion of self to be

spacious and free

If there are any more expectations its best to out them now as they may get in the way later. Dropping all expectations is helpful.

So lets start by knowing what is meant by Direct experience (DE) as apposed to thoughts about Direct experience, so we are singing from the same hymn sheet as it were.
DO THIS and report back fully please: Take a sultana (or small piece of food) and look at it, now close your eyes and think about it, how 'did' it look? what do you 'think' it will taste like? How do you feel about the prospect of eating it or even about doing this exercise? Now put it in your mouth and directly experience it. Whats that like? What is the difference between thinking about, feeling and actually experiencing from this exercise?

Looking forward to hearing,
Love S x

[kay tremayne]

The raisin is an oval shape, it looks shiny with little dark indentations all over it.
I think it will taste sweet.
I feel happy at the prospect of eating it.
The experience of the raisin in my mouth is satisfying, especially the gentle explosion of sweet taste filling my mouth and the softness of the centre. Experiencing nibbling into it with my front teeth till it is all swallowed feels fun.
The difference between thinking about it, feeling and actually experiencing it is that thinking and feeling before putting it in my mouth were 'ideas' 'assumptions'. With the raisin in my mouth I truly experienced what it tasted like and what it's texture felt like.

[smudge]

Fabulous Doff!

You clearly can tell the difference between Direct experience and thoughts about it. So through this dialogue I will mostly be asking for Direct experience (DE).

So..what comes up when you read that there is no you, no self, no controller in there, none as in Zero! there never has been and there never will be.

Love Smudge x

[kay tremayne]

What comes up is a sense of relief, that events can come and go, arise and fall. A sense of flux and fluidity, freedom of energy. xx Doff

[smudge]

So when you use the word "I" or "me" in everyday life what do these words point to in Direct experience?


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[kay tremayne]

Well, they don't point to anything in Direct experience
Doff x

[smudge]

Great, sounds like you see already? Please give me some examples of how choosing happens. X


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[kay tremayne]

choosing happens in various ways, for example, choosing what mode of transport will be decided upon cost and time restraint. Choosing which music to listen to in the car will be determined by its rhythm, the voice of the singer and the mental state present at the time. Sometimes with choice a process of intuitive elimination happens , a 'knowing' of something being the 'right' decision. The 'knowing' is a feeling experienced within the body, a knowing through head and heart, it is a trusted experience.
Often choosing happens by disregarding the idea through lack of finance. x

[smudge]

Is there a chooser? Does a choice guarantee an outcome? Is there actually control? Or is control just a story?
Look forward to answers from direct experience
Love

[smudge]

Hi Doff,

Just to remind you we both agreed to write every day unless we let each other know otherwise, this is important in terms of keeping a momentum of deep looking,

Thanks
Smudge

[kay tremayne]

Hi Smudge,
Sorry I didnt let you know, been taken up with running/planning courses this week, they are on Monday and Wednesday, Last week next week, so I wont be so busy again.

Is there a chooser? No, there is no chooser. A desire arises, mental states considers the desire, accompanied by various feelings and ethical considerations. The process of these upon the desire bring about something being grasped. Or perhaps an aversion arises and mental states arise accompanied by feelings connected to this aversion and this process brings about something not chosen.

Sometimes the choice, through the above process has the desired outcome bringing about satisfaction, sometimes not bringing about disappointment.

There is no control, having a sense of control would be a delusion.
Doff x

[smudge]

mental states considers the desire

Really? Can thoughts DO anything? Look again
Can you choose what thoughts to think, like only pleasant ones? DE only!

I need you to answer from direct experience (sultana exercise) drop all theory and actually look at whats going on in actual life event where choosing appears to happen. Like getting out of bed or taking a blue pen instead of a black one.

Looking forward to hearing your answers from Direct experience.
x

[kay tremayne]

I saw that the grass at the allotment had grown long.
A thought arose 'the grass needs cutting, next time I come to the allotment I will bring the strimmer'
Lifted the strimmer and petrol in the car and drove to the allotment.
Smelt the petrol as I filled the strimmer.
Pulled the string to start the strimmer engine.
Began to cut the grass, the strimmer feeling heavier and heavier in my arms as cutting progressed.

Bird song arrives into my hearing, wakes me up from sleep, I listen to the sound of the different birds.
My body warm and snug in bed.
I feel the urge to go to the toilet.
Lift my body from the warm bed, bare feet touch the carpet, walking to the bathroom.
Feel relief . x

I don't think I can choose what thoughts to think, like only pleasant ones, but I can choose a subject to think about, focus on, reflect upon. Experience what arises.