Thread for Quetzal

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smudge
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Thread for Quetzal

Postby smudge » Mon Feb 10, 2014 9:07 pm

Hello Quetzal,
Tell me about your journey so far.
Warm wishes
Smudge
"The bad news is you're falling, the good news is theres no ground" Trungpa

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Quetzal
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Re: Thread for Quetzal

Postby Quetzal » Tue Feb 11, 2014 12:23 am

Hello Smudge,
I´m practising Buddhism since at least six years ago in the context of Triratna Buddhist Community.
A close encounter with death made me feel a sense of urgency for to go deeper and try to break the first fetters (in Buddhist terminology). The final search is to be free from suffering, enter to the stream, get enlightened…
Thanks for offer me your help and guide.
Love.
No snowflake
ever falls
in the wrong place.

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Re: Thread for Quetzal

Postby smudge » Tue Feb 11, 2014 10:38 am

would be delighted to guide you. I also have a history in Buddhism.

Hello,
What name shall I call you? Quetzal?
I am delighted to be guiding you, you sound ripe!

Make sure you take a read/look at the disclaimer and video on this page: http://www.liberationunleashed.com/

Before we begin can we agree:
We both agree to post at least once a day, unless we let each other know otherwise.
I will ask you questions and you will respond with upmost honesty. Responses are best from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress.
Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
Lastly, Please learn to use the quote function; instructions are located in the link below this line: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660”

Then, write me any expectations you have about what breaking the first 3 fetters will be like, lets hear it all.

Warm wishes
Smudge
"The bad news is you're falling, the good news is theres no ground" Trungpa

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Re: Thread for Quetzal

Postby Quetzal » Tue Feb 11, 2014 7:08 pm

Hello,
What name shall I call you? Quetzal?
I am delighted to be guiding you, you sound ripe!
Thank you. If there´s no interference with the process, it´s ok to carry on with Quetzal.
Make sure you take a read/look at the disclaimer and video on this page: http://www.liberationunleashed.com/

Before we begin can we agree:
We both agree to post at least once a day, unless we let each other know otherwise.
I will ask you questions and you will respond with upmost honesty. Responses are best from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress.
Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
Lastly, Please learn to use the quote function; instructions are located in the link below this line: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660”
I already saw the disclaimer text and the video, and I agree with the points stated above.
Then, write me any expectations you have about what breaking the first 3 fetters will be like, lets hear it all.
Basically freedom and relief from a less or absent sense of a fixed self. Less fear, pain and anxiety that comes from a not self to be defended, and not being clinging to emotions and thoughts as mine. See the reality beyond pleasure and pain preferences. I think that would be the point in which I can really start to work in the "spiritual path" and with the rest of the fetters.
No snowflake
ever falls
in the wrong place.

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Re: Thread for Quetzal

Postby smudge » Tue Feb 11, 2014 10:18 pm

I think that would be the point in which I can really start to work in the "spiritual path" and with the rest of the fetters.
Sounds like a new imagined you in the future is expected, one that will really get down to some serious spiritual work! :-)
I would urge you to drop your expectations, they will get in the way of finding out for real, but its good they have been exposed! So lets find out the truth here...

What comes up when you read: There is no self, no controller in there, there never has been and there never will be. No self as in zero!

Looking forward to hearing..
"The bad news is you're falling, the good news is theres no ground" Trungpa

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Re: Thread for Quetzal

Postby Quetzal » Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:38 am

What comes up when you read: There is no self, no controller in there, there never has been and there never will be. No self as in zero!
A hole in the stomach and a knot in the throat. A mix between excitement and fear. It's like about to jump of a cliff.
I felt fear of live like a robot or an unconscious animal. I felt fear and sadness of not to be what my mother was expecting or what she wants of me. I felt sad of not be more with my friends. Like if I will lose something.
My mind say "maybe is not a good idea", "this person is talking to someone else, not you", or "I don't believe in this".
No snowflake
ever falls
in the wrong place.

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Re: Thread for Quetzal

Postby smudge » Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:44 am

Thank you for your honest answer Quetzal.

Lets unpack this and see if there is any evidence for a self.
A hole in the stomach and a knot in the throat.
= Physical sensations
A mix between excitement and fear...sadness
= Feelings
Like if I will lose something
maybe is not a good idea
this person is talking to someone else, not you", or "I don't believe in this
= Thoughts

So we have found a dance of physical sensations, feelings and thoughts...any evidence of a 'I' doing all this?

Please turn towards the fear and look directly at what the fear is protecting? Report back.

Good start, Look forward to hearing your answers to my questions in bold.
"The bad news is you're falling, the good news is theres no ground" Trungpa

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Re: Thread for Quetzal

Postby Quetzal » Wed Feb 12, 2014 11:58 pm

Hello Smudge,

It´s getting slippery here,
So we have found a dance of physical sensations, feelings and thoughts...any evidence of a 'I' doing all this?
Well, there's a constant voice in my head who apparently is the owner of these feelings, sensations and thoughts. It's like a sort of glue that agglutinates and gives continuity to all the experience and can be defined as “my self”, "I", or this personality. It's Quetzal. There's no something tangible, but it feels like real but at the same time difficult to grasp completely.
Please turn towards the fear and look directly at what the fear is protecting? Report back.
The fear arises in order to protect this sense of concreteness and the security that gives, and to avoid lose the apparent safety of being something delimited and known. It's scary to feel that I'll disappear in the nothingness without this “ground”.
At the same time, when I try to look this “I”, it moves from the head to the rest of the body, even to the stomach, and escape from one point to another, hiding in the corners. For moments is angry and anxious when feels hunted. It´s this "normal"?

Looking forward to more questions, thanks a lot.
Love.
No snowflake
ever falls
in the wrong place.

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Re: Thread for Quetzal

Postby smudge » Thu Feb 13, 2014 8:59 am

It's scary to feel that I'll disappear in the nothingness without this “ground”.
So bring kindness to the fear. We will discover it is not protecting anything but for now lots of kindness.

Your answer is exposing lots of thoughts/storys about experience, which is different to Direct experience (DE). Storys are fine as long as they are seen as storys. Lets do a simple excerise to really highlight the difference between thoughts about and the actual experience.
Please actually DO this exercise, simple as it may seem, take time: Take a sultana (or small piece of food) and look at it, now close your eyes and think about it, how 'did' it look? what do you 'think' it will taste like? How do you feel about the prospect of eating it or even about doing this exercise? Now put it in your mouth and directly experience it. Whats that like? What is the difference between thinking about, feeling and actually experiencing from this exercise?
"The bad news is you're falling, the good news is theres no ground" Trungpa

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Re: Thread for Quetzal

Postby Quetzal » Fri Feb 14, 2014 12:33 am

Your answer is exposing lots of thoughts/storys about experience, which is different to Direct experience (DE). Storys are fine as long as they are seen as storys. Lets do a simple excerise to really highlight the difference between thoughts about and the actual experience.
Please actually DO this exercise, simple as it may seem, take time: Take a sultana (or small piece of food) and look at it, now close your eyes and think about it, how 'did' it look? what do you 'think' it will taste like? How do you feel about the prospect of eating it or even about doing this exercise? Now put it in your mouth and directly experience it. Whats that like? What is the difference between thinking about, feeling and actually experiencing from this exercise?
Smudge,
Great. Great exercise to put aside the glass of interpretation and just experience.
I started thinking how it will taste like, feeling the reaction of the body, and excited about the great truth that I would find. After put the food on my mouth, nothing, just experience, in fact less great that I thought before, but the difference was that I felt like if I woke up to the immediate experience, even I saw more clearly but just that, nothing special happened, I connected with what was happening on that moment. So I decide to do it again, and later one, try with other things. I tried to see the expectations, thoughts and stories behind of “What will happen if I see this person?” “And if I go to cycle?” “What will happen when I start to walk?” Any time the experience was different than the story, sometimes better, sometimes worst, or more or less the same.
I saw how many expectations and stories I create not just with the exercise itself but in life in general, and how many expectations I have of this research and all the stories that I´m waiting for happen. The mind starts to create stories again and I begin to see through the glass of interpretation again.
So bring kindness to the fear. We will discover it is not protecting anything but for now lots of kindness
Bringing kindness to the fear, everything goes well with that so far.
No snowflake
ever falls
in the wrong place.

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Re: Thread for Quetzal

Postby smudge » Fri Feb 14, 2014 9:43 am

Lovely Quetzal,
I can feel your enthusiasm in this exploration.
Any time the experience was different than the story, sometimes better, sometimes worst, or more or less the same.
This is really significant seeing already, this difference between story (including expectations) and DE!

So les fine tune: When you use the word 'I" in all you have just said, what is that pointing to, what does it refer to in DE, does it have a size/shape/colour/quality?

Warm wishes
"The bad news is you're falling, the good news is theres no ground" Trungpa

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Re: Thread for Quetzal

Postby Quetzal » Fri Feb 14, 2014 10:09 pm

Storys are fine as long as they are seen as storys
If the “I” is just a story, how can be so strong, and we believe in it all the time? It´s amazing.
When you use the word 'I" in all you have just said, what is that pointing to, what does it refer to in DE, does it have a size/shape/colour/quality?
Smudge,
After all day trying it´s difficult to see this “I”. Not because is hiding, escaping or is afraid, but because apparently is not here. Trying to see it, dissolves in the experience, in a sort of loop. It´s just like a point of reference. Some phrases like “the gateless gate”, “there´s nothing to see because there´s nothing to be seen” makes much more sense now. At the same time, some practices looks less important, like if there´s nothing to achieve because there´s no need, is already there but at the same time is nothing, nothing special, nothing different to be achieved or understood.
However something smell suspicious and the “I” still around. It´s trying to appropriate of the experience and say: “There´s no “I”, well done, I did it”. It´s just in the course of the dialog that the “I” is getting softer?

A lot of love.
No snowflake
ever falls
in the wrong place.

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Re: Thread for Quetzal

Postby smudge » Fri Feb 14, 2014 10:44 pm

After all day trying it´s difficult to see this
:-)
However something smell suspicious and the “I” still around. It´s trying to appropriate of the experience and say: “There´s no “I”, well done, I did it”. It´s just in the course of the dialog that the “I” is getting softer?
= Stories

So what is there to "see this"?
In DE can you find an I that experiences?

carry out the following experiment.

When you point anywhere in the world you point at appearances. You are distant from what you are looking at and you see things, you see objects. Observe this – direct your attention at things by pointing at them.

For example, I can see the shapes and colours of this room…

of my foot...

...of my knee

of my chest...

In all these instances attention is directed outwards, at objects.

Now point where others see your face.

What do you see? You are now looking inwards – turning the direction of your attention round 180˚ from the objects out there to you the Subject, to the place you (think?) are looking out of. Do you see your face? Do you see anything at all there - any colour or shape, any movement?

Looking in to the place where others see your face, do you find colour or shape here.

What do you find?

Take it further: Point with one index finger outwards at the world, and with your other index finger point inwards towards where you used to think your face was. Describe as fully as you can what the experience is like.

Love back
"The bad news is you're falling, the good news is theres no ground" Trungpa

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Re: Thread for Quetzal

Postby Quetzal » Sat Feb 15, 2014 10:18 pm

What do you see? You are now looking inwards – turning the direction of your attention round 180˚ from the objects out there to you the Subject, to the place you (think?) are looking out of. Do you see your face? Do you see anything at all there - any colour or shape, any movement?
Looking in to the place where others see your face, do you find colour or shape here.
What do you find?
Smudge, there´s nothing here. Is not possible to see the “I”, the “me” because there´s nothing to see, just sounds, smells, the colour of the wall, from the objects outside. Moving the attention 180° inwards there´s an empty space in which the experience of the world takes place.
It´s curious that you used your foot, knee and chest, as an example of objects outside, because doing the exersice I realize that the body is a physical place in which “me” used to be, but is not there neither. The body is just body, is not “me”.

Take it further: Point with one index finger outwards at the world, and with your other index finger point inwards towards where you used to think your face was. Describe as fully as you can what the experience is like.
In this second exercise the attention moved firstly 180° towards “my-self” but immediately moved again 180° towards the world, in a 360° inward-outward movement. Doing the exercise repeatedly this happened again and again. I just found the same colours, shapes, movements of those objects that I was pointing before. Apparently there´s no difference between the object and the subject, both are the same. And in the subject point of view there is nothing, just experience. It´s like if everything is happening all the time, flowing, and words like “Me” and “I” are merely points of reference, a useful words for communicate and operate in the world. It´s like open the eyes and the ears, and see and hear clearly the life passing but at the same time nothing changes, everything was already there and nothing special happens but it´s a huge difference.

Is this just a state of mind? Who is writing this?

A lot of love, Smudge. Many many thanks for this.
No snowflake
ever falls
in the wrong place.

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Re: Thread for Quetzal

Postby smudge » Sun Feb 16, 2014 7:29 am

Hi Quetzal,
And in the subject point of view there is nothing, just experience
Yes there is emptiness, this is it, a vast open lucid dynamic emptiness. The play of form and emptiness is right here Quetzal, not lifetimes of practice way!
life passing but at the same time nothing changes, everything was already there and nothing special happens but it´s a huge difference.
Lovely to hear, YES! so simple and yet so profound eh!

Is this just a state of mind? Who is writing this?
Good question, lets go a little further with this to make sure you are well and truly cooked!

So today the question is there any separation from the experience, the the experiencer and the experienced?

Go through all the other senses and see from DE. So is sound inside, outside, neither, both...what is found....hearing a sound a then closing your eyes and hearing it may help. Notice what is story and what is DE.
Same with taste, smell, touch. Are there the boundaries that storys say are there in DE?

I am really enjoying guiding you, look forward to hearing back,
Much Love.
"The bad news is you're falling, the good news is theres no ground" Trungpa


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