Still believing I'm outside

This is a read-only part of the forum. All threads where seeing happens are stored here and come from this forum, the Facebook guiding area and various LU blogs. The complete list, sorted by guide, contains all links. The archives include threads of those that came to LU already seeing as well.
User avatar
Soulbug
Posts: 35
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2014 8:06 pm

Still believing I'm outside

Postby Soulbug » Fri Jan 31, 2014 6:18 pm

I get tastes of liberation, yet I fall back into belief in this me entity. I feel an urgency to debunk this
"me" creature, yet I can relax knowing that it's all here already. I wonder what I am waiting for, yet I doubt my success. Can you hear my ambivalence? It is time to get some real traction on this. I see the ghost-like quality of this one who thinks she's me, yet energetically she seems in charge. Thank you for offering me the push I appear to need to realize I am already that!

User avatar
moondog
Posts: 948
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2013 3:14 pm
Location: Somerset, England

Re: Still believing I'm outside

Postby moondog » Sat Feb 01, 2014 1:44 pm

Hi there Soulbug and welcome,

My name's Pete and my role is to guide you through your own unique process. Do you want me to call you Soulbug?

There are a few things that we need to go over before the journey begins.

Tell me a bit more about yourself, how you came to LU and what it is that you're looking for. Also, what time zone are you're in? I'm in Somerset in the UK.

There are also a few standard ground rules before we start:

You agree to post at least once a day, even if only to say that you're still around, and I'll do the same. Sometimes it might just not be possible for one of us to post substantively and of course we'd find a way to work round that.

I am not your teacher, all I can do is point and you look, until clear seeing happens.

In general, I will ask questions and you look deeply and respond with 100% honesty.

Responses require simple, uncontrived, honest looking. There are no wrong or right answers.

Responses are best from direct experience (the physical evidence of seeing, hearing, touching, tasting, smelling, prior to the story or explanation about them). Long-winded, analytical and philosophical or stream of consciousness answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. Just listen very closely to the answers that arise in you, and answer to the very best of your ability at that time. (Read the article at http://www.liberationunleashed.com/Arti ... ience.html for more help on distinguishing what is direct experience.)

Put aside all other teachings, philosophies etc. for the duration of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention into seeing this reality, as it is. (If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it's ok to continue with that. And it's fine to read threads in this forum and the Gateless Gatecrashers book.)

Please learn to use the quote function, see http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660 for instructions.

If you haven't already seen it, there is intro info at http://www.liberationunleashed.com/, together with our disclaimer and a short video.

Please confirm that you have seen these, that you agree to the disclaimer, and that you'd like me to be your guide and then we'll begin.

Let's start with a summary of what you're looking for and what you expect to find. I know you've already answered some of these, but please forgive any overlap and just fill in the gaps where you haven't, and we'll get started.

What are your expectations for this process?

What is it that you are searching for?

How will you know that you found it?

How will this feel?

How will this change you?


Finally, here's a couple of helpful points:

1) You can press 'subscribe to this topic' in the blue bar at the bottom of this page and receive a notification email every time I post here.

2) The site has a nasty habit of logging you out while you write a reply, which can mean you lose what you have written. One way to avoid this is to write elsewhere, then just paste the message into the 'reply' window when you're ready to send.

Don't worry, I don't intend to send any more posts this long, if I can help it! This is just to set things up for you nicely.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Lots of love,

Pete
'Just consciousness taking the shape of experience from moment to moment.
Just this'

User avatar
Soulbug
Posts: 35
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2014 8:06 pm

Re: Still believing I'm outside

Postby Soulbug » Sun Feb 02, 2014 5:50 pm

Hi Pete,
Thank you for your response. I am delighted to know you and so grateful for your help. Yes, Soulbug’s just fine. I am in California, Pacific standard. You’re 8 hours ahead of me. I agree to post once a day and I have seen the items you mention.
My expectation of this process is to finally see. At times, it feels like it is on the tip of my tongue, and then it slips out, like a forgotten dream. I have a backround as a student of A Course in Miracles for a decade or so, and lots of time with eastern practices, and lest I forget, a solid Catholic beginning.
What I am “searching” is the truth of who I am, I believe this is the only reason I came here. I should imagine it will feel peaceful and profoundly freeing, the great weight of “me-ness” lifted.
I trust this is completely possible, and my desire for it is high. I think I need help with the looking part. I suspect I am not going deeply enough in the line of inquiry.
Again Pete, Thanks and love to you too.

User avatar
moondog
Posts: 948
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2013 3:14 pm
Location: Somerset, England

Re: Still believing I'm outside

Postby moondog » Mon Feb 03, 2014 12:11 am

Hi Soulbug,

Thanks for accepting me as your guide, for letting me know a bit about yourself and for accepting all the various conditions etc. We've obviously got a good bit of time difference between us but I've successfully guided quite a quite a few people living in the Western US before so I reckon we can easily work with that and it should be no problem.

Thanks for sharing so clearly your expectations and understanding of what seeing that you have no separate self might be like. It's natural, of course, to wonder and speculate about what this liberation/awakening will be like but, by its very nature, I can assure you that it's just not like anyone expects, although it does differ for each one of us. I'd just stress that the work we do is definitely not intellectual or thought-based. That being so, it's best to put aside any expectations, as they reside in thoughts about the future and so are not within direct experience.

Rest assured, that when you see that there isn't and never has been a "you", a self-entity, with my guiding to help you see that fact for yourself, you'll just know. In exactly the same way that you know that unicorns aren't real, Batman doesn't exist, and there's no Santa Claus. It isn't fundamentally at all difficult, amazingly simple in fact, but only if you don't rely on trying to figure it out by thinking it through but, instead, just LOOK, LOOK, LOOK in direct experience.

So, great, as I've already said, actually seeing for sure that there is no separate self, and never has been, is different for everyone. It can come with a definite pop of realisation, or it might creep up gradually until it is seen. Also the effects on life lived after liberation can vary widely.

It’s worth mentioning at this early stage that what can hold a lot of people back, and something that we can perhaps knock on the head now, are assumptions around what one would 'be like' or what life ought to 'look like' once it’s seen that there’s no self-entity. There is a view that 'getting it' is tantamount to kind of somehow seeing it all the time, or being in some kind of state in which negative emotions or problems don’t arise.

It's really helpful to be clear that it's not any kind of state - it's simply direct knowing, insight. The Santa example puts it very well - 'seeing through' Santa, i.e. knowing for sure that there is no Santa, doesn't mean that little kids then spend the rest of their lives constantly thinking, 'there's no Santa'! Nor does it mean that Santa isn't apparently spotted in shopping malls in December. It's just that the story has been seen through. The direct knowing of no-self may be recollected at any time, but states still continue to come and go - pleasant, unpleasant, 'positive', 'negative'. However, that said, changes will be noticed, some possibly quite dramatic, including in relation to suffering arising from a pre-occupation with a separate self that simply doesn't exist!

I'll post once a day, perhaps occasionally more, and will tell you in advance if I know I won't be able to post. It would be good if you could do the same.

I hope that's helped to clarify the background stuff a bit. Don't hesitate to ask me about any of this.

Moving on towards the core of this work - just look at the following statement, and ponder it every which way you can:

Nothing exists outside the present moment.

Can you find anything, anything at all, that does?


And next:

How do you conceive the 'self' or 'I'/ me' that you hold 'yourself' to be?

Now look directly at the flow of experiencing. Where in that flow does the 'self' that you conceive reside? Can it be found, at all?


Pete x
'Just consciousness taking the shape of experience from moment to moment.
Just this'

User avatar
Soulbug
Posts: 35
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2014 8:06 pm

Re: Still believing I'm outside

Postby Soulbug » Mon Feb 03, 2014 5:44 pm

What?? Unicorns are not real??? That's positively devastating ;)
The only thing I can find "existent" outside of NOW is my memory of what should be there. The clock ticks now, then it ticks the same way in the next moment. Right now, I can pretty safely say I will hear it tick again when I finish typing this. I get that it's a thought, but it feels like I am more "real" than the thought- Like I am more tangible than that thought or that tick of time.
Carrying on now with your line of inquiry; In the flow of experiencing the clock tick, no, I cannot find the listener in a physical sense- but it still feels like I hear it, at least something is hearing, and it appears to belong to me. I feel responsible for it - I am the interpreter. When I get down to it, I cannot hold the listener, the tick-tock or the interpretation. It’s all ephemeral.
Yet the clock continues, I breathe, my heart beats and interpretation and hearing continue.
I will continue to review this throughout the day.
Thanks Pete!

User avatar
moondog
Posts: 948
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2013 3:14 pm
Location: Somerset, England

Re: Still believing I'm outside

Postby moondog » Tue Feb 04, 2014 3:58 pm

Hi Soulbug,
What?? Unicorns are not real??? That's positively devastating ;)
Shocking eh! And Santa too! And you, and me, and everyone else. As you'll see for a fact as we move on.
The only thing I can find "existent" outside of NOW is my memory of what should be there.
But isn't a memory of something past just a thought? And when does that thought happen, if not now?
The clock ticks now, then it ticks the same way in the next moment. Right now, I can pretty safely say I will hear it tick again when I finish typing this.
As you say - Right now, I can pretty safely say I will hear it tick again when I finish typing this. - you' can't think or say that at any other time but right now! Everything is always in the present moment.
I get that it's a thought, but it feels like I am more "real" than the thought- Like I am more tangible than that thought or that tick of time.[/i]
Can you say a bit about what you mean by you being more real and tangible than thought or the tick of time. What is there in your immediate experience that tells you that?
In the flow of experiencing the clock tick, no, I cannot find the listener in a physical sense- but it still feels like I hear it, at least something is hearing, and it appears to belong to me. I feel responsible for it - I am the interpreter. When I get down to it, I cannot hold the listener, the tick-tock or the interpretation. It’s all ephemeral.Yet the clock continues, I breathe, my heart beats and interpretation and hearing continue.
Good observations. I like your comments. We'll start with looking at seeing, hearing etc. at the end of this post.

As you'll have seen, all of the initial questions point you towards looking into 'your' direct experience which is where I will be frequently pointing you to look, and where this investigation will take place. That's as opposed to thought content. Direct experience is the very core of what we're doing here with this. Essentially, and utterly fundamentally, all there is, and can ever be, is here right now in this moment. So looking to see whether a separate and separating self is to be found can only take place within direct experience of this. Now. There's nothing else. It follows therefore that all of our work to realise and actually know that there is no self is done by investigating In direct experience. To this end, we can divide direct experience into thought, sensations (seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, feeling [tactile and kinaesthetic] and an unmistakable sense of Aliveness (presence/being). I referred to the useful article on direct experience in the introductory post and you might want to look at that again.

As I've just said, the whole of this investigation centres around looking in direct experience to see if a self-entity can be found anywhere there. This is accompanied by seeing that it is in thoughts and only in thoughts that 'I' ever 'occurs' and that 'I' doesn't actually occur there either because thoughts, or at least their contents, are neither reliable nor real in any sense.

My approach in guiding you to see that there is no self, no 'you', will be to take you in a loosely structured, relaxed and informal way in turn through each of the areas where a self entity might be lurking, so that you can see for yourself, in 'your' direct experience, that there simply isn't one there, or anywhere. So, let's start investigating in direct experience where self might be by looking at sense arisings and the self as experiencer (or not).

When you look at something, a book, a tree outside or whatever, can you find an 'I' that is looking or seeing, or is there just seeing?

If there is an 'I', where are the boundaries between what is being seen, the seeing process itself and the seer?

Please do the same with hearing: birdsong, music, a pneumatic drill or whatever; and similarly with each of: tasting, tactile feelings and smelling.


Pete x
'Just consciousness taking the shape of experience from moment to moment.
Just this'

User avatar
Soulbug
Posts: 35
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2014 8:06 pm

Re: Still believing I'm outside

Postby Soulbug » Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:19 pm

Nothing in my immediate experience tells me that I am more real or tangible. When tuning into a sound, the me seems to disappear. I guess it’s preconceived belief that would tell me that I am more solid, consistent and present than the sound of a clock. This “me” is multidimensional, intertwines with the world, has history and feels more substantive….yet what occurs to me is the utter simplicity of the sound, asking nothing …only being.
It’s THAT thought that makes my heart sing. All the while, as I hear truth, my experience of everything opens up. Just a lightness of being.
It’s a brand new way of thinking to know that thoughts are real, but the thinker is not. It’s weird, because I feel it’s absolutely true, but the rest of me hasn’t “caught up” yet. What is the “rest”? Beats me. Old sludge I suppose.
When experimenting with dE, I get that there’s just seeing happening for a split second, and then my brain short-circuits and I’m mixed up again. A little more space opens up when I recognize I cannot find the boundaries! I will continue, however, with your line of dE for the rest of the day.
It feels like we’re onto something!
Finally, I would like to thank you for this wonderful opportunity Pete. This is of inestimable worth to me!

User avatar
Soulbug
Posts: 35
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2014 8:06 pm

Re: Still believing I'm outside

Postby Soulbug » Tue Feb 04, 2014 11:00 pm

Oh and I needed a question answered. When considering this "me"idea, I came up with "I, this me, is just a thought". So if that's at all true, then how am I unreal, but my thoughts are real? This question arises and I haven't an answer. thanks!

User avatar
moondog
Posts: 948
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2013 3:14 pm
Location: Somerset, England

Re: Still believing I'm outside

Postby moondog » Wed Feb 05, 2014 12:11 pm

Hi Soulbug,
Can you say a bit about what you mean by you being more real and tangible than thought or the tick of time. What is there in your immediate experience that tells you that?
Nothing in my immediate experience tells me that I am more real or tangible. When tuning into a sound, the me seems to disappear. I guess it’s preconceived belief that would tell me that I am more solid, consistent and present than the sound of a clock.
Correct, good observations. All that tells you that 'you' exist is thought, or more accurately the content of thought. In direct experience, as you'll have seen, there's seeing, hearing, feeling, smelling, tasting and thoughts arising. They all comprise present experience, which is all there is or ever can be. Thought contents are conceptual, like data packages, with judgements, opinions, I-thoughts telling us how we should act to protect and benefit ourselves etc. Thoughts can be very useful for analysis, planning etc but can change what they say in an instant. They're part of life, are not going to go away and just need to be seen for what they are: not telling us anything real and therefore not to be relied upon.

So, I still need you to answer my questions to you about sense arisings. Please respond specifically and from direct experience, not from thoughts or emotions.

When you look at something, a book, a tree outside or whatever, can you find an 'I' that is looking or seeing, or is there just seeing?

If there is an 'I', where are the boundaries between what is being seen, the seeing process itself and the seer?

Please do the same with hearing: birdsong, music, a pneumatic drill or whatever; and similarly with each of: tasting, tactile feelings and smelling.


Your replies are good and it's great that you're looking at 'your' direct experience but I need you to stick to that looking rather than any thoughts or feelings that come up. Also, to make your replies as clear as possible and to help me guide you, please use the quote function. To do that, simply highlight the relevant sentence(s)/paragraph(s) that you're replying to in my previous post and press 'copy', then press the 'Quote ' button in the bar above the section you're typing in, then place the cursor in the centre of the two bracketed quote words and then press "paste". That should do it.
I would like to thank you for this wonderful opportunity Pete. This is of inestimable worth to me!
It's my pleasure to help you see through the illusion of a separate self.

Pete x
'Just consciousness taking the shape of experience from moment to moment.
Just this'

User avatar
Soulbug
Posts: 35
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2014 8:06 pm

Re: Still believing I'm outside

Postby Soulbug » Wed Feb 05, 2014 7:11 pm

Having difficulty with the quote function. Hope this works for the time being.
"When you look at something, a book, a tree outside or whatever, can you find an 'I' that is looking or seeing, or is there just seeing?"
I cannot find the “I“ per se. As I look I sense memories, labels etc. It does feel as though there is an energetic “body” within which sees. You encouraged me to avoid mentioning my thoughts and feelings and stick to looking, but as this all seems so feeling oriented, I must find a way to communicate my experience to you. Am I mistaken here? It’s important I articulate my experiences to you effectively.
"If there is an 'I', where are the boundaries between what is being seen, the seeing process itself and the seer?"
It’s funny because I feel like there is no division between what is seen and me, the seer, yet I cannot seem to make the same “connection” with seeing itself. Like I am hung up in the familiar. Being seeing seems foreign. The boundaries around them all are nevertheless very fuzzy and indistinguishable when I am in the “moment”.
Is this what I am moving towards, being the experience itself? Smelling, tasting, hearing etc. Being what is heard, smelled and hearing, smelling itself? All that is is completely what is, but the “one” experiencing it isn’t there? I am all noun and verb with no pronoun?
"Please do the same with hearing: birdsong, music, a pneumatic drill or whatever; and similarly with each of: tasting, tactile feelings and smelling."
Just took some time to have a cup of tea, taste and look and listen to ambient sounds and explore your instruction further. Oscillating between being swept away in experience and as I mentioned before, my brain short-circuiting. Literally, it’s like a jarring feeling that throws me off-like it all doesn’t compute!? Having difficulty riding it out.
Thanks Pete.

User avatar
Soulbug
Posts: 35
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2014 8:06 pm

Re: Still believing I'm outside

Postby Soulbug » Wed Feb 05, 2014 7:11 pm

Guess I figured out the quote function.;)

User avatar
moondog
Posts: 948
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2013 3:14 pm
Location: Somerset, England

Re: Still believing I'm outside

Postby moondog » Thu Feb 06, 2014 5:11 pm

Hi Soulbug,
I cannot find the “I“ per se. As I look I sense memories, labels etc.
Great. The important thing here is that when you look at something you can't find any 'I' in direct experience doing the seeing. Really, there's no need to qualify that with 'per se'. It's just a simple matter of whether the self can either be seen or it can't.
It does feel as though there is an energetic “body” within which sees.
You say that it feels as if there's an energetic body doing the seeing, but can you actually see (or hear or whatever) this energetic body there actually doing that in direct experience? If so, please describe its appearance and how it functions. If not, isn't it just thoughts?
You encouraged me to avoid mentioning my thoughts and feelings and stick to looking, but as this all seems so feeling oriented, I must find a way to communicate my experience to you. Am I mistaken here? It’s important I articulate my experiences to you effectively.
I didn't say that, I said, I need you to stick to that looking rather than any thoughts or feelings that come up. What I mean is that, as I mentioned before, thoughts are really just data packages, opinions, judgements etc. and, as such, just conceptual, and therefore neither real nor reliable. I was simply alerting you to that so that when you look in direct experience you are aware of what that is, as opposed to thoughts with their power to distract and seduce you away from the truth.
It’s funny because I feel like there is no division between what is seen and me, the seer, yet I cannot seem to make the same “connection” with seeing itself.
If, as you say, you can't see any separation between 'you' as seer and that which is seen, there is obviously seeing happening in your experience. So what is the 'connection' you refer to? Does there need to be one? Is there not just seeing? Or is the connection you refer to derived from thought?

Looking in direct experience, is just being in this moment, experiencing whatever's happening right now. It needs no strain or effort, so relax. All just happens effortlessly, always. 'You' don't have to do anything, you can't, there's no you, only thoughts that persistently say there is.
Is this what I am moving towards, being the experience itself? Smelling, tasting, hearing etc. Being what is heard, smelled and hearing, smelling itself? All that is is completely what is, but the “one” experiencing it isn’t there? I am all noun and verb with no pronoun?
Yes, but if there's no separate self to be found in direct experience, no 'you' doing the seeing, hearing etc. who is there to move towards being the experience itself? Isn't there just experiencing, life living itself? Not two, subject ('you') and object, but just one: just being, just experiencing. Takes a lot of weight off.

Just remember, there's nothing to fear. There never was a you, so you're not losing anything. You're just seeing clearly how things really are. Just relax and look at your experience. There's no pressure and nothing to attain.

So, let's get this clear, in direct experience, can you find any self-entity that sees, hears, tastes, smells or feels, or is there just seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling and feeling?

Don't worry Soulbug, you're doing absolutely fine. Your feelings that this is jarring and that your brain is short- circuiting are a sure sign that this process is working!

Pete x
'Just consciousness taking the shape of experience from moment to moment.
Just this'

User avatar
Soulbug
Posts: 35
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2014 8:06 pm

Re: Still believing I'm outside

Postby Soulbug » Fri Feb 07, 2014 2:48 am

Hi Pete,
You say that it feels as if there's an energetic body doing the seeing, but can you actually see (or hear or whatever) this energetic body there actually doing that in direct experience? If so, please describe its appearance and how it functions. If not, isn't it just thoughts?
I hear the thought process and think it’s mine. I get body sensations and emotional reactions as well, and think they are mine. Then, when I meditate, or even just stare at something, the lines become very blurred between emotion, mind activity, just seeing/being. I can just be still and let the mind relax away from its habitual processes.
And yes, all this is idea and thought that I have taken to be “me”. The ghost of all that feels present.
If, as you say, you can't see any separation between 'you' as seer and that which is seen, there is obviously seeing happening in your experience. So what is the 'connection' you refer to? Does there need to be one? Is there not just seeing? Or is the connection you refer to derived from thought?
Yes. I get that there must be seeing happening if there is a seer and the seen. That’s precisely where the “brain” short circuits, and it feels like my mind rejects it before I have a chance to let it sink in. Yes, ideas of rejecting, connections and “outside” have origins in thought.

Yes, but if there's no separate self to be found in direct experience, no 'you' doing the seeing, hearing etc. who is there to move towards being the experience itself? Isn't there just experiencing, life living itself? Not two, subject ('you') and object, but just one: just being, just experiencing. Takes a lot of weight off.
I receive the simplicity of this Truth, and I trust it to be true. Yet it’s impact hasn’t fully dawned on this being’s mind. At least not overtly. Life just living itself…… I can feel that it takes the weight off. Sounds great!!
Just remember, there's nothing to fear. There never was a you, so you're not losing anything. You're just seeing clearly how things really are. Just relax and look at your experience. There's no pressure and nothing to attain.
I am reassured by the fact that there was never a “me”, that there is no sacrifice involved. Just another thought, but it seems I must be afraid because of my resistance, yet I am not conscious of it. Would it behoove me to take a look at my fear?
So, let's get this clear, in direct experience, can you find any self-entity that sees, hears, tastes, smells or feels, or is there just seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling and feeling?
Truly, no I cannot find the ghost. Nothing there to pin down, to identify or to see.

Thanks Pete.

User avatar
moondog
Posts: 948
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2013 3:14 pm
Location: Somerset, England

Re: Still believing I'm outside

Postby moondog » Fri Feb 07, 2014 1:04 pm

Hi Soulbug,
yes, all this is idea and thought that I have taken to be “me”. The ghost of all that feels present.
Great, you can see that 'you' are just made up of thoughts, which come and go, unbidden. I like your use of the word 'ghost'.
Yes. I get that there must be seeing happening if there is a seer and the seen. That’s precisely where the “brain” short circuits, and it feels like my mind rejects it before I have a chance to let it sink in. Yes, ideas of rejecting, connections and “outside” have origins in thought.
Again, as you can see, it's just thought acting as a veil over what's simply here.
I receive the simplicity of this Truth, and I trust it to be true. Yet it’s impact hasn’t fully dawned on this being’s mind. At least not overtly. Life just living itself…… I can feel that it takes the weight off. Sounds great!!
And I do want you to trust, but not merely in what I say to be the case. That would just be more belief and we've all got enough of those already! All you can really trust is your own experience and what is seen there. So, all you need to do is just keep looking as you are experiencing life whether there's any 'you' evident at all, ever. You'll just naturally absorb the truth of what is found, and not found.
I am reassured by the fact that there was never a “me”, that there is no sacrifice involved. Just another thought, but it seems I must be afraid because of my resistance, yet I am not conscious of it. Would it behoove me to take a look at my fear?
I wouldn't seek fear out, if you don't feel it. There may just be feelings of unease and perhaps confusion. It's quite common to have these feelings when the truth of non-self starts to really kick in. So, although it's clearly unpleasant and can be disturbing, don't worry, it's a good sign. And don't push away from any of these feelings, or anger, or fear, if they do arise. Don’t fight them, allow them. Go with them. Let them rip. Face them. Ask the question, ' Is it true that there is no separate self whatsoever in reality?' Let any doubt in, let any anger in, let any fear in. Ask for the truth to be revealed. Look to see whether there's really anything at all behind any of these feelings that you are experiencing.
So, let's get this clear, in direct experience, can you find any self-entity that sees, hears, tastes, smells or feels, or is there just seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling and feeling?
Truly, no I cannot find the ghost. Nothing there to pin down, to identify or to see.
Excellent. So now let's move on to see whether you can find any self in thinking and thoughts:

Not from what you think, but from direct experience, please say:

Where do thoughts come from?

Are you in control of them?

Can you stop a thought from coming?

Can you stop it in the middle?

Do you know what the next thought will be?

Is 'I' a different thought from the thought of say, a table?

Can a thought think?


Pete x
'Just consciousness taking the shape of experience from moment to moment.
Just this'

User avatar
Soulbug
Posts: 35
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2014 8:06 pm

Re: Still believing I'm outside

Postby Soulbug » Fri Feb 07, 2014 11:07 pm

Hi Moondog,
Not from what you think, but from direct experience, please say:

Where do thoughts come from?
Thoughts seem to come from mind, from something larger than me.
Are you in control of them?
They appear and I have no apparent control.
Can you stop a thought from coming?
I cannot stop them from coming and parading in front of me.
Can you stop it in the middle?
It seems like I can stop it in the middle, and replace it with another. Correction- no. When I think “apple”, it’s the whole apple-there’s no stopping “apple” in the middle.
It’s too instantaneous.
Do you know what the next thought will be?
No, I am not sure.
Can a thought think?
No, it seems neutral. It’s just floating by as what it is, it has no individual mind.
Is 'I' a different thought from the thought of say, a table?
It’s only different in my judgement. But experientially, it all feels like it’s pooled together in this big swirl of internal referencing.
This brings me to a question. If the body is real, the table and the tree it’s made of are real, but “me” isn’t real? Is this because the table is concrete, but “me” is just a possessive notion? Then what of thoughts being real vs. the “me” concept? Isn’t me just another thought? Just want to dismantle this thing asap.


Thanks so very much Pete.


Return to “ARCHIVES”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest