Guidance humbly requested :)

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tryfailtry
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Guidance humbly requested :)

Postby tryfailtry » Fri Nov 22, 2013 4:43 pm

Greetings!

I have read Gatecrashers and had many 'aha' moments and yes I know there was no I to have them, but something was certainly experienced- liberation was experienced, but no doubt (which is I know is not 'real'- is being experienced....therefore realize I need a few pushes, shoves, kicks and loves

With sincere gratitude- I seek guidance.


Warm Regards

-Monty

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Re: Guidance humbly requested :)

Postby Faraday » Sat Nov 23, 2013 3:01 pm

Hi Monty, i'm Mike and i'd like to be your guide.

Here are a few ground rules,
1. You agree to post at least once a day, even if only to say, "still here!"
I am not your teacher, all I can do is point, you look, until clear seeing happens.
2. In general, I will ask questions, you look deeply and honestly, and respond.
3. Responses require simple, uncontrived honest looking. There are no wrong or right answers.
4. Responses are best from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers, and stream of consciousness answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress.
5. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
6. Please learn to use the quote function; instructions are located in the link below this line:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660”

If you haven't already seen it, there is intro info here, our disclaimer and a short video too.
http://www.liberationunleashed.com/

If you could confirm you have seen all the above and would like me to be your guide - then we shall begin.

What are your expectations for this process?
How will it change you?
How will this feel?
You can press 'subscribe to this topic in the blue bar at the bottom of this page and receive an email every time I post here. Some report its easier to write their response somewhere else and then copy it to avoid time running out on the forum.

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Re: Guidance humbly requested :)

Postby tryfailtry » Sat Nov 23, 2013 4:47 pm

Thank you- sincerely

I have read the rules and I agree wholeheartedly to abide.
What are your expectations for this process?
I'm not sure- I'm looking to put an end to deep thought and over analyzing in my life- which has since been quieted since I began this 'journey' or rather realization, but I feel myself swaying back and forth between presence and retreat, calm and storm. I realize there is no I for me to own these feelings emotions etc, but the 'I" is still very much identifying with the thoughts - but dropping them has become much easier. My 'ego' is not happy about this awareness.

How will it change you?
Intellectually, I suspect it won't change me, yet rather reveal 'me'- a me without regret,fear,doubt and inner critique. 'I' never was in the first place- but I'd be lying if I said I don't believe it's not there anymore....I know its not in the real sense, but to me- I still identify with it.

How will this feel?
I would 'hope' for the shift to be like a big glorious breathe of fresh air and sparkly silence, but aside from that and what other people- try to explain- I don't believe it is felt, maybe known? sensed?- I know its already there right this very second, but my senses aren't in tune with it.


Disclaimer- I find myself having writers block, but it makes me laugh- because before it would upset me that I'm not explaining myself- but I have this neutral feeling that it doesn't matter- and that's where even this thought ends....



Whatever the word above thank you is - ummmmm- that...for you....really appreciate this

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Re: Guidance humbly requested :)

Postby Faraday » Sat Nov 23, 2013 6:01 pm

Good, your expectations aren't unrealistic. We can work with that :)
I'm not sure- I'm looking to put an end to deep thought and over analyzing in my life- which has since been quieted since I began this 'journey' or rather realization, but I feel myself swaying back and forth between presence and retreat, calm and storm. I realize there is no I for me to own these feelings emotions etc, but the 'I" is still very much identifying with the thoughts - but dropping them has become much easier. My 'ego' is not happy about this awareness.
Ego's only want what they can't have and they don't like what they have right now. They're not good at being happy.
Intellectually, I suspect it won't change me, yet rather reveal 'me'- a me without regret,fear,doubt and inner critique. 'I' never was in the first place- but I'd be lying if I said I don't believe it's not there anymore....I know its not in the real sense, but to me- I still identify with it.
Can you expand on this? What is this revealed 'me' like? Are you saying that it is now covered with fear and doubt? Do the fear and doubt have to disapear first? Can you find anything about this 'me' that is not a thought?

I would 'hope' for the shift to be like a big glorious breathe of fresh air and sparkly silence, but aside from that and what other people- try to explain- I don't believe it is felt, maybe known? sensed?- I know its already there right this very second, but my senses aren't in tune with it.
You're right, it is not about feeling or sensing or thinking, it is about looking and seeing. Feelings and thoughts might and probably will follow, but they are always late to the party. If it is like you say and it's already here this second, go take a look, what is already here right now? You are experiencing all kinds of things at this moment, what are they, and is a me part of it?

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Re: Guidance humbly requested :)

Postby tryfailtry » Sat Nov 23, 2013 7:27 pm

What seems to happen is I see the 'gate'- I intellectually understand there isn't one- but my thoughts,which I know aren't real - circle me-loop me- trap me.

I have lived a pretty interesting life- and got all the toys I have ever wanted- and guess what- I'm not unhappy, but something just feels askew. I enjoy my talents, but the products of having those talents are inert. I'm rambling..back on track......

I don't understand - yes I'm questioning here- but why would my ego lead me here to be 'killed' off- or rather want to expose itself- then I think- well maybe I was headed here whether the "ego" wanted to or not- then I get sad that I never had free will-then I get sad that I didn't choose to help the guy on the side of the road with his car as I find pleasure in helping people- then I realize this is all DOUBT in the first place and its merely just happening, but I somehow embrace it- and it just feels wrong.

I enjoy deep thought when its not 'scary' and it usually cycles as this is cool this is cool this is cool and then oh no oh no oh no..its happening..boom....the whirl begins...

It just happens--it does just HAPPEN..hmmm....

Can you expand on this? What is this revealed 'me' like? Are you saying that it is now covered with fear and doubt? Do the fear and doubt have to disapear first? Can you find anything about this 'me' that is not a thought?
Shit- to be honest- I can't in the immediate sense until I let thought take over. "I" am hearing a bird do its song and dance, hear my furnace burning a hole in my wallet, the tap of the keys, and a slight 'hum' of life- and now my thoughts are thinking about an 'unreal' me being full of fear and doubt and then I experience it and cling to it- and I get frustrated when I hear "Don't let go"- "What if you forget your fiance"- "What if you don't know who you are anymore"- then another thought "How could you forget what never was" and now I'm doing what you don't want..philosophize. - in a picturesque sense....its like "my ego" is round house kicking me back to the beginning of the game as I pull its mask off.

If it is like you say and it's already here this second, go take a look, what is already here right now? You are experiencing all kinds of things at this moment, what are they, and is a me part of it?
Its an oscillation between the 'now' and the illusion or thoughts of what I used to be- even though the concept of that entity was never tangible or real in the first place- its hard to embrace that I am not typing this, but rather typing is just occurring- and it seems depressing that it just happens, but I sense I wouldn't notice depressing ...if....there....was .....no .....'me' ...to experience it- because there was no "me" = there would be no 'me' to ever question it in the first place....dammit. now what haha

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Re: Guidance humbly requested :)

Postby Faraday » Sat Nov 23, 2013 9:44 pm

I don't understand - yes I'm questioning here- but why would my ego lead me here to be 'killed' off- or rather want to expose itself- then I think- well maybe I was headed here whether the "ego" wanted to or not- then I get sad that I never had free will-then I get sad that I didn't choose to help the guy on the side of the road with his car as I find pleasure in helping people- then I realize this is all DOUBT in the first place and its merely just happening, but I somehow embrace it- and it just feels wrong.
Ego is always looking for the next thing that will make it happy and complete. In some twisted way it thinks "If i'm gone, i'll finally be happy." It sees other awakened people and wants a piece of that, and then when it gets too close it gets cold feet and finds all kinds of reasons not to go on. It also loves to be superior to other people and can you think of anything that would top achieving enlightenment?
but I somehow embrace it- and it just feels wrong.
What feels wrong is probably the thought 'something feels wrong' itself. Everything is embraced, except that thought/feeling. You can't exclude anything.
Shit- to be honest- I can't in the immediate sense until I let thought take over. "I" am hearing a bird do its song and dance, hear my furnace burning a hole in my wallet, the tap of the keys, and a slight 'hum' of life- and now my thoughts are thinking about an 'unreal' me being full of fear and doubt and then I experience it and cling to it- and I get frustrated when I hear "Don't let go"- "What if you forget your fiance"- "What if you don't know who you are anymore"- then another thought "How could you forget what never was" and now I'm doing what you don't want..philosophize. - in a picturesque sense....its like "my ego" is round house kicking me back to the beginning of the game as I pull its mask off.
Philosophizing isn't bad as long as you're honest about it, and with honest i mean, see what happens and describe it. You see philosophizing happening? great, don't buy into it and on to the next observation. So when you say the ego is roundhouse kicking you, who is being kicked? Apparently the ego is observed kicking something but is the subject that is being kicked also observed?
Its an oscillation between the 'now' and the illusion or thoughts of what I used to be- even though the concept of that entity was never tangible or real in the first place- its hard to embrace that I am not typing this, but rather typing is just occurring- and it seems depressing that it just happens, but I sense I wouldn't notice depressing ...if....there....was .....no .....'me' ...to experience it- because there was no "me" = there would be no 'me' to ever question it in the first place....dammit. now what haha
Try to answer this: Is a self inside or outside of experience? Is there anything other than experience? Is experience ever not 100%?

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Re: Guidance humbly requested :)

Postby tryfailtry » Sat Nov 23, 2013 10:14 pm

Ok- I certainly see my ego is still involved....because..respectfully I want to shoot holes in all of what you are saying- but then a realization occurs

no matter if shoot holes- or it a tsunami happens- or a person has a heart attack- its just happening

but then I think- there are plenty of people who have heart attacks that have not 'crossed' the gate- that choose to take measures to keep them alive...so what kept them alive..the ego or the truth......and if someone said well its because "I" didn't want to die- then the 'ego' saved the 'truths' life and how is that a bad thing- or was it going to happen anyway?

Its a tough pill to swallow because - that means my parents taught me things that their egos picked up- but they taught me beautiful things- and without their lessons, how would I know to not cross a busy street, or help someone yelling help or even learn to talk- or is that I'm simply questioning everything rather than just 'going with it'----I find a tinge of relief there with that......
What feels wrong is probably the thought 'something feels wrong' itself. Everything is embraced, except that thought/feeling. You can't exclude anything.
wow...ok that hit something in me...I don't know what it was - but this really resonating here.

So when you say the ego is roundhouse kicking you, who is being kicked? Apparently the ego is observed kicking something but is the subject that is being kicked also observed?

I don't know who is being kicked- I guess its a version of me- its formless- its nothing- I feel peace- and then I'm slung back into thinking...ok....wait......wow....I can't answer who is being kicked...Im feeling waves of weird sensations now....I can't see eyes open or closed anything tangible - its just thoughts or thoughts about what I'd think I'm seeing. ..It feels like I can accept everything other than my thoughts not being 'real'- It feel stuck here, but you did something here.....
Try to answer this: Is a self inside or outside of experience? Is there anything other than experience? Is experience ever not 100%?
my ego or what remains is rattled here......there is no self to have the experience.....its just a thought high fiving another thought and tricking my true self- there is no one having the experience...the experience is just happening....but I'm still pondering over that..it feels like there is something blocking the view here.......trouble seeing past this......its making my heart race...Its ok...I like this.......wow----I feel like I want to cry here....I feel afraid to drop this lie I've been living......but this is the circle...there is only crying..no one actually doing it....but I think I only understand that as a 'concept'.......sorry for running in circles here....I really appreciate this.....

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Re: Guidance humbly requested :)

Postby Faraday » Sun Nov 24, 2013 12:04 am

but then I think- there are plenty of people who have heart attacks that have not 'crossed' the gate- that choose to take measures to keep them alive...so what kept them alive..the ego or the truth......and if someone said well its because "I" didn't want to die- then the 'ego' saved the 'truths' life and how is that a bad thing- or was it going to happen anyway?

Its a tough pill to swallow because - that means my parents taught me things that their egos picked up- but they taught me beautiful things- and without their lessons, how would I know to not cross a busy street, or help someone yelling help or even learn to talk- or is that I'm simply questioning everything rather than just 'going with it'----I find a tinge of relief there with that......
The mind isn't an enemy, it does exactly what it's supposed to and it does it very well. It is the most powerful tool that we know of and it's very good at keeping you alive. But it is just that, a tool. The ego is just the part of the mind that thinks it's you.
When someone says "i didn't want to die" after surviving a heart attack, is that really the ego that rescued him, or is the ego just speaking out what was already there; the will to live.
I don't know who is being kicked- I guess its a version of me- its formless- its nothing- I feel peace- and then I'm slung back into thinking...ok....wait......wow....I can't answer who is being kicked...Im feeling waves of weird sensations now....I can't see eyes open or closed anything tangible - its just thoughts or thoughts about what I'd think I'm seeing. ..It feels like I can accept everything other than my thoughts not being 'real'- It feel stuck here, but you did something here.....
You don't have to accept it before you can see it. Refusal to accept is an experience, just like the feeling of being stuck, they can be observed. Can a self be observed?
Explain the nothing, the formless to me, is it sometimes here or always? If it truly is nothing then how can it be kicked or hurt?
I don't know who is being kicked- I guess its a version of me- its formless- its nothing- I feel peace- and then I'm slung back into thinking...ok....wait......wow....I can't answer who is being kicked...Im feeling waves of weird sensations now....I can't see eyes open or closed anything tangible - its just thoughts or thoughts about what I'd think I'm seeing. ..It feels like I can accept everything other than my thoughts not being 'real'- It feel stuck here, but you did something here.....
Thoughts are real, they are just as real as a picture of the Eiffel tower for instance, it is in no way the actual tower but the picture is very real. Try this exercise: Look at an object like a pen or a cup or even your hand and try to just observe it, don't add anything but also don't block thoughts about it, they are also part of the experience. When a thought comes that tries to describe it, notice the thought and try to see the difference between the object and the thought, see how the actual cup in reality has nothing to do with the thought that says "cup". If a distraction comes, let it be added to the experience. You can also try this with a thought instead of an object, see how the thought is just like the cup a real object that is observed, even if the content has nothing to do with reality. Do this a few times, remember to just watch what happens, nothing more.
my ego or what remains is rattled here......there is no self to have the experience.....its just a thought high fiving another thought and tricking my true self- there is no one having the experience...the experience is just happening....but I'm still pondering over that..it feels like there is something blocking the view here.......trouble seeing past this......its making my heart race...Its ok...I like this.......wow----I feel like I want to cry here....I feel afraid to drop this lie I've been living......but this is the circle...there is only crying..no one actually doing it....but I think I only understand that as a 'concept'.......sorry for running in circles here....I really appreciate this.....
Where is this true self? What is so 'true' about it? If it really is a true self, then how can it be tricked? If looking deep causes problems, look at the surface. What is here, right now, in this moment and is a self part of it?

Now take your time, don't strain anything. The mind probably wants to type away at an answer right away because that keeps it in puzzle solving mode. Just sit down and look.

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Re: Guidance humbly requested :)

Postby tryfailtry » Sun Nov 24, 2013 12:45 am

I am going to read this over and sit with this. I will respond later tonight or tomorrow. But I think sitting with this is the best step forward. Many thanks.

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Re: Guidance humbly requested :)

Postby tryfailtry » Sun Nov 24, 2013 1:55 am

I'm about to go out to see some friends but while I was waiting for the girl to get ready I did what you asked. I sat there and just observed. And after a minute I had this whirling feeling as if being thrusted forward and then everything got really vibrant and then resistance kicked in. I know a big firework moment is not the point of this but there is experiencing a shift taking place. That's all I got at the moment. Thanks again. Thoughts that were affecting my mood previously literally have no value or merit anymore. I can pull them up and drop them with ease.

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Re: Guidance humbly requested :)

Postby Faraday » Sun Nov 24, 2013 11:31 am

Thoughts can only affect mood if they're believed. Thoughts are fuel for moods and vice versa.

When you're ready try to answer the questions i posted as clearly as you can.

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Re: Guidance humbly requested :)

Postby tryfailtry » Sun Nov 24, 2013 7:08 pm

You don't have to accept it before you can see it. Refusal to accept is an experience, just like the feeling of being stuck, they can be observed. Can a self be observed?
Explain the nothing, the formless to me, is it sometimes here or always? If it truly is nothing then how can it be kicked or hurt?
I begin to roll with thought, but once I get to your question - its stale mate....and I smile......I can't explain it- there is nothing there to refer to...sure I know what I see...as in I can interpret what I see in the mirror- and even interpret why I see it- on a scientific level- but when I close my eyes and force my senses to 'search' I can't even see the 'real' version of 'me' that is even typing this because there is NOTHING there. The experience just makes me laugh to be honest. As hard as I even try to look- or even generate an idea about what I'm seeing. It feels 'answerless' - I just catch myself forcing to keep looking and its finding literally nothing.

To be honest - I still find myself bouncing between thought and present.....I go from clarity to having old memories or past experiences arise that 'seem' like they are real- as If I could toggle between NOW and then- as if I could change them..but there is nothing to change...because it was nothing more than a previous version of the immediate now and thats all ever or has ever existed....this is heavy..good heavy..but even I 'see' that I'm still trying to conceptualize this...I see the circle I'm running in here- but wow its so hard to see that a circle never even existed....dammit.


Where is this true self? What is so 'true' about it? If it really is a true self, then how can it be tricked? If looking deep causes problems, look at the surface. What is here, right now, in this moment and is a self part of it?

Now take your time, don't strain anything. The mind probably wants to type away at an answer right away because that keeps it in puzzle solving mode. Just sit down and look.

I...don't see anything.....I would be lying if I said there isn't a compulsion to strain it- but I still catch my self doing it....This is so heavy- yet so easy- there is literally no true self..just an underlying 'essence'- and intangible energy? wavelength? hum? that is just literally alive- doing its thing. Even my 'ego' or whatever is marveling at it- as if it is telling me- dude yes- I get it..I would want that to....but then these are thoughts or images my mind is 'seeing'- they are beautiful thoughts and they 'feel' good- but as above..the circle exists..as If now...there is a hand in the truth reaching out and I just keep whizzing by it never fully taking it- but each time I answer your questions- I feel a fog lifting..I feel a progression- but I don't have a single clue who or what is doing the feeling.....its not scary anymore- it just is. I'm laughing. Now I'm choked up because I was making this about me- and although its a thought- it feels insanely beautiful that you are here helping me- its making me emotional. not sad. just gracious beyond words man....tears are streaming down my face....I need a second...haha..sigh...wow....its been 10 minutes..and I just feel empty- but alive at the same time. its being processed in strange way...

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Re: Guidance humbly requested :)

Postby Faraday » Sun Nov 24, 2013 9:05 pm

To be honest - I still find myself bouncing between thought and present.....I go from clarity to having old memories or past experiences arise that 'seem' like they are real- as If I could toggle between NOW and then- as if I could change them..but there is nothing to change...because it was nothing more than a previous version of the immediate now and thats all ever or has ever existed....this is heavy..good heavy..but even I 'see' that I'm still trying to conceptualize this...I see the circle I'm running in here- but wow its so hard to see that a circle never even existed....dammit.
Thoughts can only appear in the present, even thoughts about past and future.

Are your old memories and past experiences always here, or only when they are thought of? Right in this moment, are you really carrying your past or is there just what you can see right now? The sense that you are the sum of those memories, is it really all those experiences combined, or is there only the sense?
I...don't see anything.....I would be lying if I said there isn't a compulsion to strain it- but I still catch my self doing it....This is so heavy- yet so easy- there is literally no true self..just an underlying 'essence'- and intangible energy? wavelength? hum? that is just literally alive- doing its thing. Even my 'ego' or whatever is marveling at it- as if it is telling me- dude yes- I get it..I would want that to....but then these are thoughts or images my mind is 'seeing'- they are beautiful thoughts and they 'feel' good- but as above..the circle exists..as If now...there is a hand in the truth reaching out and I just keep whizzing by it never fully taking it- but each time I answer your questions- I feel a fog lifting..I feel a progression- but I don't have a single clue who or what is doing the feeling.....its not scary anymore- it just is. I'm laughing. Now I'm choked up because I was making this about me- and although its a thought- it feels insanely beautiful that you are here helping me- its making me emotional. not sad. just gracious beyond words man....tears are streaming down my face....I need a second...haha..sigh...wow....its been 10 minutes..and I just feel empty- but alive at the same time. its being processed in strange way...
That essence, is it a feeling? if so, how is it different from any other feeling? What is behind it? Is there a distance between that essence and the observing? Is there a distance between observing and anything that is observed, or is there only experience being observed?

Watch out for the emotional rollercoaster that can happen in this process, it is all distraction. The mind wants it to be a big kaboom followed by bliss and if it is bored with looking it might create kabooms of its own to trick itself into thinking it's almost there.

Tell me exactly where you are getting stuck. If there is still belief in a self, describe what you think it is; the observer? the decider? the thinker? all of those, or something else?

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Re: Guidance humbly requested :)

Postby tryfailtry » Sun Nov 24, 2013 10:37 pm

My heart still beats. My breathing continues. I don't have to think about blinking. Itches arise themselves. But then I can hold my breathe. I can keep from blinking. I can choose not to itch. I sense like I'm two people. Then that idea collapses. Ha it seems that every what if scenario is simple just an idea that I only believe will have an outcome because it's a belief. But beliefs aren't tangible. And there have been countless times where what I worried about never happened. Now it feels that what you are pointing me toward is just another Idea and I shouldn't believe that. Ha and again another fake not real assumption. What the hell would you get from tricking me. A process still occurs where I know I typed this but I can't find who. To anyone reading this don't let it scare you. It's not scary anymore. And actually never really was. But I only observe that I'm looking for something that isn't there. Even though it is impossible to find I feel drawn to keep looking. As if I'm ever going to find it. I keep being able to collapse weird thoughts or holes to shoot in this. But there aren't any. Because it's only thoughts making thoughts about thoughts. Now I find myself looking at things as if it's the first time I ever saw them. I looked at my fiancé and the familiarity was still there but it felt fresher. What do you observe happening here? I hope losing ways to dance around the truth is the process. Because that is what I observe happening.

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Re: Guidance humbly requested :)

Postby tryfailtry » Sun Nov 24, 2013 10:41 pm

And sorry for the large body. I had to use the phone. I'm not near a computer and I wanted to respond. I ll keep the large bodies of text to a minimum.


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