Would love a Guide to help me see the Truth

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Julia
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Would love a Guide to help me see the Truth

Postby Julia » Sun Nov 03, 2013 4:17 pm

My name is Julia, and a dear friend has pointed to this website as a wonderful way forward. Like many others, have been a seeker of the Truth. Interested in how the World of humanity is controlled, etc.
Would love to find peace and perhaps Liberation Unleashed is the honest way to do that. Where does one start???

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sqnhoj
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Re: Would love a Guide to help me see the Truth

Postby sqnhoj » Sun Nov 03, 2013 11:15 pm

Julia,

My name is John, and I would be happy to accompany you on this journey and encourage you to see. If you are agreeable, here are some preliminary, administrative concerns.


Would you mind confirming that you have read and agree to the following?

1. You agree to post at least once a day.

(Caveat here--see below)*

2. In general, I will ask the questions for you to respond to.
3. Responses require your utmost honesty
4. Responses are best from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress.
5. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that. By all means you are encouraged to read Gateless Gatecrashers (available as a downloadable PDF) and any of the threads or resources on the LU website.
6. Please learn to use the quote function; instructions are located in the link below this line:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660”

The forum can sometimes "time out" and log you out, especially if you take a while with a response. It might be a good idea to prepare your responses on a Word document to copy and paste onto your forum post.

*If you are unable to post once per day at least, just try to let me know, and if I'm going to be away with the chance of not being able to post, I'll try to let you know. If you are working through a response and need more time, a simple "checking in" would help.

If you agree to this, then kindly answer the following question:

What are your expectations with regard to liberation? How do you think it will feel, and how do you think it will change you?

I am in the Eastern U.S. time zone.

I'm looking forward to this journey.

John

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Julia
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Re: Would love a Guide to help me see the Truth

Postby Julia » Mon Nov 04, 2013 11:15 am

Dear John, Am also looking forward to this journey, which I feel will bring positive changes in my outlook on this World of humanity. Am unsure as to my exact expectations of this process. All I know, is that this is very important to do. Have been searching for peace and love all my life.

Am very happy to post once a day, and to give honest, direct answers where possible. I am in the South East UK.

Awaiting your questions. Julia

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sqnhoj
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Re: Would love a Guide to help me see the Truth

Postby sqnhoj » Mon Nov 04, 2013 2:14 pm

Hello, Julia, and thank you for your response.
Am also looking forward to this journey, which I feel will bring positive changes in my outlook on this World of humanity. Am unsure as to my exact expectations of this process.
It sounds as if you have articulated some general expectations: "positive changes in my outlook...." Since you mention that you have been searching for peace and love, that sounds like other expectations.

An open mind is a helpful attitude. Changes in outlook may very well occur, although what is probably in store is a shift in perspective. Anyway, would encourage you to stay open to whatever appears.

As you respond to questions, please try to stay close to your own direct experience. There's nothing mysterious about direct experience. It's what comes up in your five senses. It also includes thoughts and emotions, but looking at thoughts in direct experience can be tricky. Don't get lost in the content of thinking...the mental dialog. Thinking is a process, much like seeing and hearing. Behind the inner words (or images if that's how you tend to think), there's simply the appearance and disappearance of thoughts. That's the process to observe. Please avoid any more conceptual thinking in a response than is absolutely necessary to communicate. If I sense that you are answering from conceptual thinking, I won't hesitate to call you on it.

So based on your direct, sensory experience, what comes up when it is read that there absolutely no you” in any way, shape or form; there never has been a "you," not before, not now, not in the future? Are there any emotions or sensations experienced that can be describe?

Look forward to hearing from you.

John

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Julia
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Re: Would love a Guide to help me see the Truth

Postby Julia » Tue Nov 05, 2013 1:24 pm

Hello John, thank you for your guidance.

It is too easy to be in the mind much of the time. Breaking away and feeling instead is bringing moments of some understanding that [you and I] are just words. This body is not who is truly (me)? This body is like a way of experiencing a kind of journey. There was a feeling of separateness from this body. I feel emotional, tears in my eyes. What am I? The body and mind, is that the (you)?

What is the mind and the silly chatter that is observed? The body and mind is separate from us?

Still got tears in the eyes. There's a feeling of sadness when reading there has never been a you in the past, present or future. What is going on?

Julia

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sqnhoj
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Re: Would love a Guide to help me see the Truth

Postby sqnhoj » Wed Nov 06, 2013 1:41 am

Julia,

Hello. You're truly welcome, but please know that this process is valuable here, as well. Pointing someone to look at direct experience is a lovely way for me to look again and be always reminded.'
It is too easy to be in the mind much of the time. Breaking away and feeling instead is bringing moments of some understanding that [you and I] are just words. This body is not who is truly (me)? This body is like a way of experiencing a kind of journey. There was a feeling of separateness from this body. I feel emotional, tears in my eyes. What am I? The body and mind, is that the (you)?
Julia...all too true. Can you see how you were in the mind in this quoted paragraph? That's why I'm the one who asks the questions: not because I'm an authority figure (you are the authority here), but because I want you to look and report to me what comes up when you look. Try to get out of thought and into the senses.
What is the mind and the silly chatter that is observed? The body and mind is separate from us?
Agree with your first sentence. Lots of thoughts appear and disappear. But who or what is this "us" that is separate from the body and mind? I'm not concerned about me, because I've seen through that. Who is the "me" you are referring to? If it's separate from the body/mind, where is it? Does "me" have a shape or a color?
Still got tears in the eyes. There's a feeling of sadness when reading there has never been a you in the past, present or future. What is going on?
Can you look at that feeling of sadness, using your senses, and describe it? Does it come and go? Where is it? What happens if you look at it and don't worry about whether it's there or not or whether it goes away?

Keep looking, Julia, and stay with your senses. Thoughts happen, of course, but they come and go, and if there's no identification with their content they are more like a mental static or a barely heard mental monologue.

Hang in there during the sadness and also when it disappears.

John

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Julia
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Re: Would love a Guide to help me see the Truth

Postby Julia » Wed Nov 06, 2013 1:07 pm

Hello John,

Just checking in today, time is short. Have read your reply. Will devote time tomorrow. Thank you.

Julia

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sqnhoj
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Re: Would love a Guide to help me see the Truth

Postby sqnhoj » Thu Nov 07, 2013 12:00 am

Julia,

Thanks. That happens to me sometimes. Keep looking.

Regards,

John

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Julia
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Re: Would love a Guide to help me see the Truth

Postby Julia » Thu Nov 07, 2013 11:42 am

Hello John,
I feel confused. A little scared of these feelings. Will try not to ask the questions. Who is the "me" and "us" that i referred to. Well, it was as if another being was there, within the body. It's not easy to explain at this point of understanding. It's as if i'm trying to run away from facing this truth, if that's what it is. i'm not sure what to do.
The feeling of sadness on Monday is faintly there. It does come and go. I feel right now, held back, unable to relax,
mental static.

Julia

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sqnhoj
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Re: Would love a Guide to help me see the Truth

Postby sqnhoj » Fri Nov 08, 2013 1:25 am

Hi Julia,
It's as if i'm trying to run away from facing this truth, if that's what it is. i'm not sure what to do.
This suggests that there may be fear besides the feeling of sadness, especially since you say you are afraid of these feelings.
Who is the "me" and "us" that i referred to. Well, it was as if another being was there, within the body. It's not easy to explain at this point of understanding.
It's a common belief that "we" are somehow inside the body. This is a belief to be questioned and explored. First things first, you talk about how it's not easy to explain at this point of understanding. This (explaining and understanding) is not the place to start from. It's not about explaining, which is bound up in conceptual thinking, and of course the same thing is true of "understanding." Exploring emotions can be tricky because it usually leads to thinking, attempting to explain, and attempting to understand. Let's get basic: the five senses, as much as possible stripped of thought. Is there a self or a "being" located inside the body? If so, where? Can you feel it in any tactile sense whatsoever? Can you see it or hear it?

Here's a little experiment. Take your hands and touch your face and head. Gently touch it all over, front, sides, back. Where are these sensations occurring? Are they inside your body...particularly your head? Use sight, sound, and touch to assist in locating these sensations. Don't go by what you've read about human anatomy, spirituality, or anything else. Only go by your immediate sensations and where they are occurring in your direct experience. And if, by chance, you are tempted to say that they are inside the body, then I would ask you how you can touch and feel the outside of your head, face, and body. If they are inside the body, wouldn't they be locked up inside there, unable to feel the outside?

Please report on doing this experience and any other looking you can do to find a "self" inside your body? And stay with your senses. Pay no attention to the content of the stories that thinking spins. Also, just curious, when the attention is immersed in sensory experience, is there any change in the feelings of sadness and fear?

Julia, this is only the beginning, but I'm going to continue asking you to stay with your senses, so I hope you get used to that. I happen to think it's a great adventure.

Best,

John

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Julia
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Re: Would love a Guide to help me see the Truth

Postby Julia » Fri Nov 08, 2013 4:26 pm

Hi John, Can't quite get the hang of quoting, there's no copy or paste anywhere? Please advise what to do.

It's a common belief that "we" are somehow inside the body. This is a belief to be questioned and explored. Here's a little experiment. Take your hands and touch your face and head. Only go by your immediate sensations and where they are occurring in your direct experience. And if, by chance, you are tempted to say that they are inside the body, then I would ask you how you can touch and feel the outside of your head, face, and body. If they are inside the body, wouldn't they be locked up inside there, unable to feel the outside?

Please report on doing this experience and any other looking you can do to find a "self" inside your body? And stay with your senses. Pay no attention to the content of the stories that thinking spins. Also, just curious, when the attention is immersed in sensory experience, is there any change in the feelings of sadness and fear?

Can feel the soft skin and contours of my face, also hair, the way it lays. It's nothing to do with anything inside! My hands are touching and feeling while i marvel at these things. i feel happy while doing this, no sense of sadness or fear anywhere. Trying not to listen to the thoughts, as advised. Stay with the senses. It takes some getting used to.

Thanks John.

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sqnhoj
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Re: Would love a Guide to help me see the Truth

Postby sqnhoj » Sat Nov 09, 2013 12:03 am

Hi Julia,

Here's the link for the instructions for quoting:

http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660

It's one of the top posts in the guiding section.
Hi John, Can't quite get the hang of quoting, there's no copy or paste anywhere? Please advise what to do.
Highlight the text you want to quote and then hit the multicolored "Quote" button. It can be tricky, so don't get frustrated. There are no "points" deducted if you don't get the hang of it. If you decide to compose your answer in Word (so as not to get bounced off and lose your post), it's not that relevant. Often I have to go in and insert line breaks after I quote.
Can feel the soft skin and contours of my face, also hair, the way it lays. It's nothing to do with anything inside! My hands are touching and feeling while i marvel at these things. i feel happy while doing this, no sense of sadness or fear anywhere. Trying not to listen to the thoughts, as advised. Stay with the senses. It takes some getting used to.
You have the mechanics down, it looks like. You also get a demonstration of how sensory awareness can change your emotional state. Keep in mind, this is a by-product. It's not what you're seeking, and it might not always happen. Life/experience can be unpredictable. The real question is this: while you are sensing...where are you? You've indicated that there is no self inside. What about outside? Are "you" to be found anywhere at all? There is the experience of touching, seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting at various times, but who or what is experiencing that? Can you find something? Consider this a search mission. Try to find yourself. If you think you find it, tell me where, and then we'll investigate that further. So what is experiencing all these experiences?

Thanks, Julia, for staying with this. The process itself can be good fun! (Of course, maybe I'm just easily entertained!)

Warm wishes,

John

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Julia
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Re: Would love a Guide to help me see the Truth

Postby Julia » Sat Nov 09, 2013 5:45 pm

Hi John,

Highlighted the words needed, then pressed quote, and got the whole page. Anyway, at least it can all be deleted.

"The real question is this: while you are sensing...where are you? You've indicated that there is no self inside. What about outside? Are "you" to be found anywhere at all? There is the experience of touching, seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting at various times, but who or what is experiencing that? Can you find something? Consider this a search mission. Try to find yourself. If you think you find it, tell me where, and then we'll investigate that further. So what is experiencing all these experiences"?

i'm doing that face/hair exercise again with the above para. for guidance. It's like a hovering awareness. It's not inside or outside, just there anyway. "Who or what is experiencing that"? i'm sensing touch e.g. warmth and coolness, seeing my body, using all the other senses regarding the physical body. My thoughts are following your questions, seeking answers. i'm trying to find my SELF. Mental static, sense of panic. Oh dear.

Thanks John.

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sqnhoj
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Re: Would love a Guide to help me see the Truth

Postby sqnhoj » Sat Nov 09, 2013 6:49 pm

Julia,

Mental static is just indistinct thinking. Not to worry.
It's like a hovering awareness.
Your word "hovering" caught my attention. It suggests a location where it is and is not. Can you be more precise? Where is it...(if it's there at all)?
i'm sensing touch e.g. warmth and coolness, seeing my body, using all the other senses regarding the physical body. My thoughts are following your questions, seeking answers. i'm trying to find my SELF. Mental static, sense of panic. Oh dear.
Okay, it's time to start picking that language apart until we get to the bare truth. You say "seeing my body." Who owns that body? Why is it yours, and where is the owner (if there is one)?

Same for "my thoughts." Thinking happens. Thoughts come and go, appear and disappear, correct? Why do you say they are yours? Where is the owner of these thoughts? If they are "your" thoughts, can you control them? Can you not think about a pink elephant? Can you stop thoughts for 30 minutes? For 15 minutes? Who or what owns and controls those thoughts? Is it possible that thinking simply happens, with no owner, no controller. I'm not trying to lead you, but you need to investigate.

Thank you,

John

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Julia
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Re: Would love a Guide to help me see the Truth

Postby Julia » Sun Nov 10, 2013 5:13 pm

"Mental static is just indistinct thinking. Not to worry.
Your word "hovering" caught my attention. It suggests a location where it is and is not. Can you be more precise? Where is it...(if it's there at all)?"

It's like an all-pervading awareness around the body. Does that make sense.

"i'm sensing touch e.g. warmth and coolness, seeing my body, using all the other senses regarding the physical body. My thoughts are following your questions, seeking answers. i'm trying to find my SELF. Mental static, sense of panic. Oh dear. Okay, it's time to start picking that language apart until we get to the bare truth. You say "seeing my body." Who owns that body? Why is it yours, and where is the owner (if there is one)?"

Whose body is it. It's part of everything. Do i own it, how can i, it isn't what i am. Who is the owner, the Creator of all things.

Same for "my thoughts." Thinking happens. Thoughts come and go, appear and disappear, correct? Why do you say they are yours? Where is the owner of these thoughts? If they are "your" thoughts, can you control them? Can you not think about a pink elephant? Can you stop thoughts for 30 minutes? For 15 minutes? Who or what owns and controls those thoughts? Is it possible that thinking simply happens, with no owner, no controller. I'm not trying to lead you, but you need to investigate.

"Who is the owner of these thoughts". It can't be me, i'm the looker or observer. The body does it's own thing.
It operates without me on automatic pilot, the thoughts come from the brain, as part of the body. i'm the looker. Even when i meditate thoughts are still happening, even though they are wonderfully uplifting and many times awe-inspiring. Who is the controller of everyday thoughts. Comes from the body and mind, including the monkey chatter.
Hope this makes sense.

Thanks John.

Julia.


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