Requesting a guide

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jasonport
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Requesting a guide

Postby jasonport » Thu Aug 29, 2013 6:13 pm

Hi,

I have read the Gateless Gatecrashers book and have tried to follow along with each story to do my own inquiry and answer the posed questions for myself. I had some success but not enough to see past the gate. I like to see if a guide can help me get past the finish line. Thanks so much.


-Jason

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moondog
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Re: Requesting a guide

Postby moondog » Thu Aug 29, 2013 6:23 pm

Hi there and welcome Jason,

My name's Pete and my role is to guide you through your own unique process.

There are a few things that we need to make clear before the journey begins.

Tell me a bit about yourself, how you came to LU and what it is that you're looking for. Also, what time zone are you're in - I'm in Somerset in the UK.

There are also a few standard ground rules before we start:

You agree to post at least once a day, even if only to say that you're still around, and I'll do the same. Sometimes it might just not be possible for one of us to post substantively and of course we'd find a way to work round that.

I am not your teacher, all I can do is point and you look, until clear seeing happens.

In general, I will ask questions and you look deeply and respond with 100% honesty.

Responses require simple, uncontrived, honest looking. There are no wrong or right answers.

Responses are best from direct experience (the physical evidence of seeing, hearing, touching, tasting, smelling, prior to the story or explanation about them). Long-winded, analytical and philosophical or stream of consciousness answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. Just listen very closely to the answers that arise in you, and answer to the very best of your ability at that time. (Read this article: http://www.liberationunleashed.com/Arti ... ience.html for more help on distinguishing what is direct experience.)

Put aside all other teachings, philosophies etc. for the duration of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention into seeing this reality, as it is. (If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it's ok to continue with that. And it's fine to read threads in this forum and the Gateless Gatecrashers book.)

Please learn to use the quote function, see http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660 for instructions.

If you haven't already seen it, there is intro info at http://www.liberationunleashed.com/, together with our disclaimer and a short video.

Please confirm that you have seen these, that you agree to the disclaimer, and that you'd like me to be your guide and then we'll begin.

Let's start with a summary of what you're looking for and what you expect to find.

What are your expectations for this process?

What is it that you are searching for?

How will you know that you found it?

How will this feel?

How will this change you?


Finally, here's a couple of helpful points:

1) You can press 'subscribe to this topic' in the blue bar at the bottom of this page and receive a notification email every time I post here.

2) The site has a nasty habit of logging you out while you write a reply, which can mean you lose what you have written. One way to avoid this is to write elsewhere, then just paste the message into the 'reply' window when you're ready to send.

Don't worry, I don't intend to send any more posts this long, if I can help it! This is just to set things up for you nicely.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Lots of love,

Pete
'Just consciousness taking the shape of experience from moment to moment.
Just this'

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jasonport
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Re: Requesting a guide

Postby jasonport » Thu Aug 29, 2013 7:03 pm


Tell me a bit about yourself, how you came to LU and what it is that you're looking for.
Hi Pete. Thank you for being my guide. I stumbled upon the Gatecrashers book while searching for material online. I've been searching for something for about 8 years now, ever since someone suggested Eckert Tolle as a way to help with my anxiety. Since then I've been a reader of many "spiritual" texts, with my main influences being Adyashanti and Jed McKenna.

As for what I am looking for- if I am honest it is relief. I have a very active mind, a lot of self talk, and am very wrapped up in "me". I've noticed that any time I can get out if my head and just be, even if for only a moment, I just feel right. Being so wrapped up in me does not feel right.
Also, what time zone are you're in - I'm in Somerset in the UK.
I am in the eastern US time zone, same as New York.
There are also a few standard ground rules before we start:

You agree to post at least once a day, even if only to say that you're still around, and I'll do the same. Sometimes it might just not be possible for one of us to post substantively and of course we'd find a way to work round that.

I am not your teacher, all I can do is point and you look, until clear seeing happens.

In general, I will ask questions and you look deeply and respond with 100% honesty.

Responses require simple, uncontrived, honest looking. There are no wrong or right answers.

Responses are best from direct experience (the physical evidence of seeing, hearing, touching, tasting, smelling, prior to the story or explanation about them). Long-winded, analytical and philosophical or stream of consciousness answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. Just listen very closely to the answers that arise in you, and answer to the very best of your ability at that time. (Read this article: http://www.liberationunleashed.com/Arti ... ience.html for more help on distinguishing what is direct experience.)

Put aside all other teachings, philosophies etc. for the duration of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention into seeing this reality, as it is. (If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it's ok to continue with that. And it's fine to read threads in this forum and the Gateless Gatecrashers book.)

Please learn to use the quote function, see http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660 for instructions.

If you haven't already seen it, there is intro info at http://www.liberationunleashed.com/, together with our disclaimer and a short video.

Please confirm that you have seen these, that you agree to the disclaimer, and that you'd like me to be your guide and then we'll begin.
I will have no issues with posting everyday. I have seen the article and video and I agree to the disclaimer.
Let's start with a summary of what you're looking for and what you expect to find.

What are your expectations for this process?

What is it that you are searching for?

How will you know that you found it?

How will this feel?

How will this change you?
My expectation is that through this process "I" will realize there really is no self.

I am searching for that relief that I mentioned earlier. My mind is so concerned with my self, what others think of me, etc. that it just seems so silly to me if I think of it logically. If there is no self then being so mentally wrapped up in an illusion is absurd and a waste of energy.

It is unclear to me how I will know when I have found this. I imagine it will be like a switch goes off and I just know.

As to how it will feel, I imagine relief, a clearer mind. I hope it changes me in that I will not be bogged down by mind and propping up the false me.

Thanks again for being my guide, Pete. I greatly appreciate and look forward to this process

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moondog
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Re: Requesting a guide

Postby moondog » Thu Aug 29, 2013 10:41 pm

Hi Jason,

Thanks for accepting me as your guide and for letting me know a bit about yourself.
My expectation is that through this process "I" will realize there really is no self.
I am searching for that relief that I mentioned earlier. My mind is so concerned with my self, what others think of me, etc. that it just seems so silly to me if I think of it logically. If there is no self then being so mentally wrapped up in an illusion is absurd and a waste of energy.
It is unclear to me how I will know when I have found this. I imagine it will be like a switch goes off and I just know.
As to how it will feel, I imagine relief, a clearer mind. I hope it changes me in that I will not be bogged down by mind and propping up the false me.
Thanks, that’s good and quite realistic in terms of expectations. Of course, ‘I’ will not be liberated – liberation is from believing in a ‘self’ entity, believing in any separation of ‘I’ and ‘other’, etc. Rest assured, that when you see that there is and never has been a "you", a self-entity, with my guiding to help you see that fact for yourself, you'll just know. In exactly the same way that you know that unicorns aren't real, Batman doesn't exist. There's no Santa Claus.

It's natural, of course, to wonder and speculate about what this liberation/awakening will be like but, by its very nature, I can assure you that it's just not like anyone expects, although it does differ for each one of us. I'd just stress that the work we do is definitely not intellectual or thought-based. That being so, it's best to put aside all expectations, as they reside in thoughts about the future and are so not within direct experience.

So, excellent. As I've already said, actually seeing for sure that there is no separate self, and never has been, is different for everyone. It can come with a definite pop of realisation, or it might creep up gradually until it is seen. Also the effects on life lived after liberation can vary widely.

It’s worth mentioning at this early stage that what can hold a lot of people back, and something that we can perhaps knock on the head now, are assumptions around what one would “be like” or what life ought to “look like” once it’s seen that there’s no self-entity. There is a view that “getting it” is tantamount to kind of somehow seeing it all the time, or being in some kind of state in which negative emotions or problems don’t arise.

It's really helpful to be clear that it's not any kind of state - it's simply direct knowing, insight. The Santa example puts it very well - "seeing through" Santa, i.e. knowing for sure that there is no Santa, doesn't mean that little kids then spend the rest of their lives constantly thinking, "there's no Santa"! Nor does it mean that Santa isn't apparently spotted in shopping malls in December. It's just that the story has been seen through. The direct knowing of no-self may be recollected at any time, but states still continue to come and go - pleasant, unpleasant, "positive", "negative". However, that said, changes will be noticed, some possibly quite dramatic, including in relation to suffering arising from a pre-occupation with a separate self that simply doesn't exist!

I hope that's helped to clarify the background stuff a bit. Don't hesitate to ask me about any of this. Moving on towards the core of this work:

Observe closely and let me know what comes up when you read the following:

There is absolutely no "you" in any way, shape, or form. No "you" thinking your thoughts. No "you" living your life. There never has been a "you" nor will there ever be.

Take those statements deep inside. Really let them sink in.

What physical sensations do you notice?

What thoughts do you notice?

What feelings do you notice?


P x

moondog
'Just consciousness taking the shape of experience from moment to moment.
Just this'

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jasonport
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Re: Requesting a guide

Postby jasonport » Fri Aug 30, 2013 2:34 pm




Observe closely and let me know what comes up when you read the following:

There is absolutely no "you" in any way, shape, or form. No "you" thinking your thoughts. No "you" living your life. There never has been a "you" nor will there ever be.

Take those statements deep inside. Really let them sink in.

What physical sensations do you notice?

What thoughts do you notice?

What feelings do you notice?
Pete, I appreciate your first part about expectations. To be honest, I definitely came in with expectations, hope really, that this would solve many of my problems. I hoped perhaps that I could end up in a different state of mind. I have remove those expectations with the belief that I can't know what it will be like because that is all just thought and speculation.

On to your questions: when I reviewed your statements, I felt some fear. A tightening or gripping in my gut or stomach area. This was before any thought. Once thought came in, it mostly wondered how your statements could be true. This voice in my head, my constant companion through my years, it seems so real. Isn't that me? Aren't these thoughts, actions, memories all Jason?

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moondog
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Re: Requesting a guide

Postby moondog » Fri Aug 30, 2013 5:39 pm

Hi Jason,
I hoped perhaps that I could end up in a different state of mind. I have remove those expectations with the belief that I can't know what it will be like because that is all just thought and speculation.
Good, because it's not a state of mind that you're looking to attain. In fact you're not looking to attain anything. You just need to uncover the hidden truth that there is no 'you' (or 'me', or anyone else for that matter) and never has been. This brings much freedom because there's no longer this mythical self-entity to nurture, cosset and protect. By the way, self-preservation and survival instinct, all that sort of stuff, are far more primal, and useful, and remain intact, unaffected. Why shouldn't they, what's changed, there was never a 'you' anyway.

I reckon this is good time to stress the crucial importance of direct experience as the very core of what we're doing here with this. Essentially, and utterly fundamentally, all there is, and can ever be, is here right now in this moment. So looking to see whether a separate and separating self is to be found can only take place within direct experience of this. Now. There's nothing else. It follows therefore that all of our work to realise and actually know that there is no self is done by investigating In direct experience. To this end, we can divide direct experience into thought, sensations (seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, feeling [tactile and kinesthetic] and an unmistakable sense of Aliveness (presence/being). I referred to the excellent article on direct experience in the introductory post.

During this guiding, I'd like to take you gradually, in a loosely structured, flexible way, through all areas of experience, to see if you can find a self here. So that you can actually SEE for yourself.
I felt some fear. A tightening or gripping in my gut or stomach area. This was before any thought.
The prospect of discovering that there really is no you, no self-entity isn't something that most people take lightly so it's not surprising that you should feel some feelings of fear and anxiety. It's quite common to have these feelings when the truth of no-self starts to really kick in. So, although it's clearly unpleasant and can be disturbing, don't worry, it's a good sign. Consider any fear you have of no-self to be a protective mechanism. It's doing its job perfectly, and it's a loyal friend and protector. Can you look at the fear itself, how it works, and where it is felt in the body? Ask it to come closer. Check that raw feeling. Is it personal? Ask it what it's protecting. What is it that it does not want you to find out? Thank it, and look behind the fear as if you would be taking a peek with curiosity. What is behind it?

You will not disappear. You cannot. You never “were” in the first place. Existence exists and always has and always will. What does not exist is this “you” —the imaginary ownership of a piece of existence.
This was before any thought. Once thought came in, it mostly wondered how your statements could be true. This voice in my head, my constant companion through my years, it seems so real. Isn't that me? Aren't these thoughts, actions, memories all Jason?
As I said earlier, the whole of this investigation centres around looking in direct experience to see if a self-entity can be found anywhere there. This is accompanied by seeing that it is in thoughts and only in thoughts that 'I' ever 'occurs' and that 'I' doesn't actually occur there either because thoughts, or at least their contents, are neither reliable nor real in any sense.

More of that later, let's now, at last, get down to the core work. First question:

When you say "I", what does that refer to in direct experience? Please describe in detail – does it have a shape? A size? A quality?"

Pete x
'Just consciousness taking the shape of experience from moment to moment.
Just this'

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jasonport
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Re: Requesting a guide

Postby jasonport » Fri Aug 30, 2013 6:19 pm

Can you look at the fear itself, how it works, and where it is felt in the body? Ask it to come closer. Check that raw feeling. Is it personal? Ask it what it's protecting. What is it that it does not want you to find out? Thank it, and look behind the fear as if you would be taking a peek with curiosity. What is behind it?
If I focus on the fear, it actually dissipates a little. I try not to put too much thought to it, it just feel it instead. I don't get many answers though, any time I try it feels too forced like I am trying to come up with a reason for the fear.

When you say "I", what does that refer to in direct experience? Please describe in detail – does it have a shape? A size? A quality?"
In direct experience, "I" feels like a label. Like i use it to only vocalize a feeling. If I say "I am hungry", it is in response to a feeling of hunger. "I hate broccoli" is a label or description of the feeling of not liking broccoli.

As far as a feel, it feels centered on me some where. I guess not any where specific. But there there does seem to be some "weight" to it, some kind of "I" feeling. It is very nonspecific though.

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Re: Requesting a guide

Postby moondog » Sat Aug 31, 2013 11:55 am

Hi Jason,
If I focus on the fear, it actually dissipates a little. I try not to put too much thought to it, it just feel it instead. I don't get many answers though, any time I try it feels too forced like I am trying to come up with a reason for the fear.
Yes, thinking won't help at all here, it'll just get in the way. Don't try to do or attain anything. Just let yourself experience the bodily feeling, not pushing it away but gently welcoming it and being with it as it is until it goes. Fear is there to protect you, but it can't discriminate between the real danger of say, a cliff edge or a man brandishing a knife and something like a snake that turns out to be a harmless length of rope or the loss of something that's never existed, like a separate self. So long as you're not seduced by the accompanying thought content, fear is just seen as merely another bodily feeling, albeit not particularly pleasant. It's believing the those thoughts that give it its potency. Also, in direct experience, look behind the feeling. Is there anything there at all? Is it protecting anything?
In direct experience, "I" feels like a label. Like i use it to only vocalize a feeling. If I say "I am hungry", it is in response to a feeling of hunger. "I hate broccoli" is a label or description of the feeling of not liking broccoli.
Good to notice that 'I' is just a label attached by thought. So you're absolutely right but, given that direct experience is just simply sense arisings, i.e what you see, hear, touch taste and smell, can the feeling that 'I'' is just a label even be seen in direct experience? Can you see that, not only are labels thoughts, but also so are the "feelings" that tell us that "I" feels like a label?

What does the word "I" or "me" point to, here and now, in direct experience?
As far as a feel, it feels centered on me some where. I guess not any where specific. But there there does seem to be some "weight" to it, some kind of "I" feeling. It is very nonspecific though.
Because we are all very much alive, indeed all we are is life living, we are, in a sense, that feeling of aliveness, so the feeling of weight comes from our very existing. When I-thoughts attach to this, it can produce a very convincing sense and illusion of a separate self in 'here", with everything else 'out there'.

Let's move on to sense arisings and the self as experiencer (or not):

When you look at something, a book, a tree outside or whatever, can you find an 'I' that is looking or seeing, or is there just seeing?

If there is an 'I', where are the boundaries between what is being seen, the seeing process itself and the seer?

Please do the same with hearing: birdsong, music, a pneumatic drill or whatever; and similarly with each of: tasting, tactile feelings and smelling.


P x
'Just consciousness taking the shape of experience from moment to moment.
Just this'

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Re: Requesting a guide

Postby jasonport » Sat Aug 31, 2013 1:12 pm

Hi Pete,
Also, in direct experience, look behind the feeling. Is there anything there at all? Is it protecting anything?
I don't find anything behind the fear. Just fear. It is also harder to conjure up the fear. Now simply pondering that there is no me and never has been doesn't generate much fear.
see that, not only are labels thoughts, but also so are the "feelings" that tell us that "I" feels like a label?

What does the word "I" or "me" point to, here and now, in direct experience?
I can see that calling the "I" a label is just more labeling. It seems like it could go on forever! Calling something a label is labeling, which in turn in labeling, etc.

In direct experience, here and now, "I" is hollow. It doesn't really point to anything. It feels like I always just assumed what I was, that is was me, but if I look at it through direct experience, there doesn't seem to be anything I refers to.

When you look at something, a book, a tree outside or whatever, can you find an 'I' that is looking or seeing, or is there just seeing?

If there is an 'I', where are the boundaries between what is being seen, the seeing process itself and the seer?

Please do the same with hearing: birdsong, music, a pneumatic drill or whatever; and similarly with each of: tasting, tactile feelings and smelling.
With all of my senses, there is just the seeing, hearing, smelling, etc. it isn't until thought kicks in that there is any kind of ownership to it. I am aware of just seeing, just hearing. It just happens, I don't even control the seeing or hearing.

-Jason

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moondog
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Re: Requesting a guide

Postby moondog » Sun Sep 01, 2013 10:48 am

Hi Jason,
I don't find anything behind the fear. Just fear. It is also harder to conjure up the fear. Now simply pondering that there is no me and never has been doesn't generate much fear.
That's really good to hear - you can see that there's nothing for fear to protect, and so it diminishes accordingly.
I can see that calling the "I" a label is just more labeling. It seems like it could go on forever! Calling something a label is labeling, which in turn in labeling, etc.
In direct experience, here and now, "I" is hollow. It doesn't really point to anything. It feels like I always just assumed what I was, that is was me, but if I look at it through direct experience, there doesn't seem to be anything I refers to.
You've got it in one, couldn't have put it better myself. Good observation.
With all of my senses, there is just the seeing, hearing, smelling, etc. it isn't until thought kicks in that there is any kind of ownership to it. I am aware of just seeing, just hearing. It just happens, I don't even control the seeing or hearing.
Again, spot on! You are seeing that there is no self involved in experiencing sense arisings; there's just seeing, just hearing, just feeling, just smelling and just tasting.

So, that's really encouraging. Let's move on to another 'ing', thinking.

Where do thoughts come from?

Are you in control of them?

Can you stop a thought from coming?

Can you stop it in the middle?

Do you know what the next thought will be?

Is "I" a different thought from the thought of say, a table?

Can a thought think?


There's no rush, so take your time and examine all of this closely. First, just sit quietly and let your mind become quieter and more still, then wait for thoughts to come and see what you notice.

P x
'Just consciousness taking the shape of experience from moment to moment.
Just this'

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Re: Requesting a guide

Postby jasonport » Sun Sep 01, 2013 1:56 pm


Where do thoughts come from?

Are you in control of them?

Can you stop a thought from coming?

Can you stop it in the middle?

Do you know what the next thought will be?

Is "I" a different thought from the thought of say, a table?

Can a thought think?

Hi Pete,

I don't know where thoughts come from. When I sit and wait for thought, thoughts just appear. I even tried forcing a thought, like coming up with something random. I blurt out "pickle frost sand plate" or something else silly and it doesn't feel like I came up with it or forced it, those random words still just popped into my head. I can't force them because if I "think" of a word, it has already appeared in a thought. I don't take ownership until after the fact that it appeared.

I can't seem to stop a thought from coming because the thoughts just appear on their own. I can kind of stop a thought in the middle, but it takes a lot of effort and is only done by distracting with another thought, thinking about something else. There is no thought stopping to just silence.

I also don't seem to be aware of what thought will come next. The thoughts just appear with no warning. Any idea of possibly knowing what thought will come next is just more thought it seems.

An I thought does not seem to be any different then any other thought. Which is pretty profound if I think about it (but I try not to think about it too much because it is just thinking :) ). An I thought seems to be just another description. It is still just a thought or a label. It is just the extra meaning that more thought places on that thought, more thought says an I thought has more meaning then a thought about a table.

It doesn't seem that a thought can think. Thought just seems to be present, just a thing, an occurrence. There doesn't seem to be any live to it.

-Jason

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Re: Requesting a guide

Postby moondog » Sun Sep 01, 2013 5:47 pm

Hi Jason

Good answers about self as thinker.
I can kind of stop a thought in the middle, but it takes a lot of effort and is only done by distracting with another thought, thinking about something else
But, given your comments about what you've seen in direct experience regarding thinking, can 'you' really even do that? Or is that just another I-thought telling 'you' that?
An I thought does not seem to be any different then any other thought. Which is pretty profound if I think about it (but I try not to think about it too much because it is just thinking :) ). An I thought seems to be just another description. It is still just a thought or a label. It is just the extra meaning that more thought places on that thought, more thought says an I thought has more meaning then a thought about a table.
You're absolutely correct although, of course, your thoughts/memories of tables, chairs etc relate (with varying degrees of accuracy) to "things" that can actually be experienced, that exist. Thoughts of a self are about an illusion, something that has never existed.

So all good so far. Let's now move on to self as doer/controller:

It's clear that when we breathe, blink, digest food etc. there's no "I" involved, but how is it for you when walking?

How is it when doing various everyday things like say, brushing your teeth, washing up, that kind of thing?

Is there any "I" there for any of these actions, or are they just like "automatic"?

Look to see whether, when "you" do these things there is sometimes a thought, just after that says, "I did that."

Are all actions "automatic"?


It seems to be going great so far Jason. What do you think? Anything you want to mention?

P x
'Just consciousness taking the shape of experience from moment to moment.
Just this'

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Re: Requesting a guide

Postby jasonport » Mon Sep 02, 2013 1:08 pm

Hi Pete,
But, given your comments about what you've seen in direct experience regarding thinking, can 'you' really even do that? Or is that just another I-thought telling 'you' that?
It is another I thought, you are correct. Thinking is a funny thing because if you think about thought, it is just more thought. I guess it is just best to be aware of thought and how it arises on its own and to leave it at that.

It's clear that when we breathe, blink, digest food etc. there's no "I" involved, but how is it for you when walking?

How is it when doing various everyday things like say, brushing your teeth, washing up, that kind of thing?

Is there any "I" there for any of these actions, or are they just like "automatic"?

Look to see whether, when "you" do these things there is sometimes a thought, just after that says, "I did that."

Are all actions "automatic"?
Actions definitely seem to be automatic. In the past I would have sworn that I was doing it all. I would have said Of course I am in control! But really looking at it, I notice that things just happen. Any ownership by a me is just a thought after the fact, even if it is almost instantaneous, it is still after the fact.

I have to say it makes me wonder about life though. I hope this is not too much thinking, but if things just happen then what am I? If we say that there is no I, then I suppose there is just awareness, which is fine. But then it seems a bit, unfulfilling maybe? Like being is just being aware, like watching a movie play out or something. For someone like myself who is very much likes to be in control ( I think my biggest fear is losing control of situatuions), it is a difficult thing to consider.

It seems to be going great so far Jason. What do you think? Anything you want to mention?
One thing I worry about sometimes is that I am too well read on these topics. What I mean is that I hope I am answering from direct experience and not just spouting out what I "know" are the "right" answers. I am not saying that I am not answering from direct experience, just that it is a concern I have sometimes. I do try my best to look at direct experience.

-Jason

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Re: Requesting a guide

Postby moondog » Mon Sep 02, 2013 4:03 pm

Hi J
It s another I thought, you are correct. Thinking is a funny thing because if you think about thought, it is just more thought. I guess it is just best to be aware of thought and how it arises on its own and to leave it at that.
Yeah, I you're absolutely right, that's the best way to look at thoughts. Who knows really even what they actually are? Essentially however, there's nothing at all wrong with thoughts; they are just part of our overall experience of living life and are obviously indispensable for analysing, planning et. They won't go away or stop just because we want them to but, if "you" don't become involved in these thoughts, but just recognise them for what they are i.e. potentially dodgy data packages wound up with self-serving opinions and judgements (easier said than done I know, but this does work) it makes it easier not to be seduced by their content, particularly I-thoughts.
Actions definitely seem to be automatic. In the past I would have sworn that I was doing it all. I would have said Of course I am in control! But really looking at it, I notice that things just happen. Any ownership by a me is just a thought after the fact, even if it is almost instantaneous, it is still after the fact.
That's just what I found when I was being guided. It came as one of the greatest shocks to me, that what I thought ''I' was doing, was all happening 'automatically', with 'me', i.e. thoughts, just providing a commentary!
I have to say it makes me wonder about life though. I hope this is not too much thinking, but if things just happen then what am I? If we say that there is no I, then I suppose there is just awareness, which is fine. But then it seems a bit, unfulfilling maybe? Like being is just being aware, like watching a movie play out or something. For someone like myself who is very much likes to be in control ( I think my biggest fear is losing control of situatuions), it is a difficult thing to consider.
It's not that it's too much thinking, it's just thinking per se (again) and it is, in a sense, another attempt by the mind, ego or whatever you want to call the fear/defence mechanism, to protect or distract from seeing that there's no self-entity. After all, there never has been an inherent 'you', and everything has proceeded, life has gone on just as it has. Seeing no self just means that you won't devote all that energy to protecting, cosseting and nurturing this non- existent entity. Why would life be unfulfilling when a fundamental illusion has finally been seen through? Your fear of not having, or losing control of situations would possibly be justified, but only if there had ever been a you to be in control in the first place but, as you've now seen for 'yourself', there just isn't.
'Just consciousness taking the shape of experience from moment to moment.
Just this'

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moondog
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Location: Somerset, England

Re: Requesting a guide

Postby moondog » Mon Sep 02, 2013 4:19 pm

Sorry Jason, I pressed the send button by accident, so there's just a bit more.
One thing I worry about sometimes is that I am too well read on these topics. What I mean is that I hope I am answering from direct experience and not just spouting out what I "know" are the "right" answers. I am not saying that I am not answering from direct experience, just that it is a concern I have sometimes. I do try my best to look at direct experience.
Only you can know that, and I have to trust that you are answering from direct experience and that your recall of that experience is as accurate as it can be. Again, could be thoughts trying to cast doubt? Just keep looking, it will be just fine, and you're doing just fine. Your progress so far has been really good.

So, let's now move on a little from doing to deciding/choosing (although the border between these is, to say the least, a little hazy). Try this exercise:

Raise your right arm (or don’t). In that process of raising the right arm (or not), a decision is made, or at least something happens (or doesn’t). But can you pinpoint the actual moment of choice and find the actual entity that appears to be making that choice? In direct experience, can that moment of choice, that apparent chooser, actually be found? Or does the idea “i just chose to (not) raise my right arm” come after the event itself?

Also, can I ask you to have a look at the following short video clip from BBC Horizon - The Secret You on Neuroscience and Freewill: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-i3AiOS4nCE . It demonstrates scientifically that our decisions and choices are made a full 6 seconds before we think we make them, i.e. before a thought arises saying, "I decided to do this." There is no substitute for looking in direct experience, but this is excellent scientific corroboration for what is to be found, or rather not found, in direct experience.

Pete x
'Just consciousness taking the shape of experience from moment to moment.
Just this'


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