Lost soul seeks guide!

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Nino
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Lost soul seeks guide!

Postby Nino » Thu Jun 27, 2013 5:40 pm

Hi,

I am looking for a guide, I have read all the rules & watched the video. Possibly the best way to introduce myself is to say:

This I must know for myself. It is a question which grows and grows which everything I do leads me back too.
No more theory, no more clever arguments. And then I stumble upon this site.

Much gratitude!
Nino

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Ilona
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Re: Lost soul seeks guide!

Postby Ilona » Thu Jun 27, 2013 5:50 pm

Hi nino,
Well said, it needs to be known not believed.
So what comes up when you consider that there really is no separate self, no entity behind the word I? What thoughts, sensations show up?

How do you see this now: what does the word I point to?

Welcome to the forum :)
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com

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Nino
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Re: Lost soul seeks guide!

Postby Nino » Fri Jun 28, 2013 7:54 am

Hello Ilona, a million thanks for helping me. I really can do with it.

When I consider there really is no separate self I it seems sensible, like ‘I am a dream being in a dream world, driving a dream car’ but I cannot wake up from this dream. Then there is no ‘I’ to wake up, and if there was one it could not be me. The only way I can see myself is as another.

Over the past two days, the intensity of my ‘seeking’ has really changed into ‘investigation’. From looking for my-self, to simply investigating the sensation ‘I am’ since it is obvious there is no ‘I’ anywhere, if there was it would not be me, it would have to be someone else. I really loved your examples using Santa & Batman, which have just (right now) helped me to see: I haven’t so much being seeking who I am so much as trying to convince myself I exist. I’ll explain that one step further.

Downloading the Android App presented a real surprise for me, whoever would have thought it would help me to skip over my greatest fear – Would I cease to exist when I see there is no actual ‘I’? And the answer to paraphrase – That makes no sense, I will see for myself, and I will see there has always been an ‘I’ or there has never been an ‘I’ – what will cease to exist is the ‘belief’ ‘I am’ and that will be the end of my theorizing.

So I do not exist – as a belief, ah, that’s the whole damn problem. ‘What is’ is, irrespective of whether or not I believe it – so what I do believe can hardly be ‘what is’ and yet I cannot shake the belief.

An absolutely wonderful point I have found during my short investigation: when I argue with another in my own mind it all comes back to ‘I’, which is suspected of impersonation – far more interesting than a run-away mind complaining hours at a time.

I points to….. When I look for the elusive ‘I’, part of me sees the sensation of ‘I’ has no origin, no source, it simply is. Then what really happens is a deep fear is being expressed. ‘If I don’t believe I exist, how can I exist. I must keep believing or I will cease to exist’.
I could try to be very clever and argue with myself ‘there is no ‘I’ there to express this belief’, but that’s not really the point.
I believe I will cease to exist if I stop believing I exist – without the belief ‘I am’ what happens to the ‘I’.

Ilona, I hope I’ve answered your questions, certainly you’ve provoked me to think in newer ways which I appreciate so much. You’ve given me a lot to ponder on today, thank you, thank you, thank you.

Nino

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Re: Lost soul seeks guide!

Postby Ilona » Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:26 am

Hi nino,

Thank you for answer.
I am- is a pointer to awareness, I am is a construct of language, it's made of two words- I and am. As if there is an entity I that does the being.
In your experience right now, is there anyone, anything doing the being? Can being be switched on and off? Can it be put on hold for a bit?

If being is labelled I, does that make the I -the be-er? Does that affect sense of aliveness if its labelled I or not? What if you label sense of being "schmok" does that affect the sense?

See, seeing that I is just a label does not make sense of being disappear. That which does not exist does not appear or disappear. It's imagined.

Try this- close your eyes and imagine you are holding a melon in between your hands, imagine it so vividly that you can feel weight, texture, temperature, scent. Hold that image in the mind for a bit and watch how there is perceiving of sensations happening.
Open your eyes and look- what happened to the melon? Did it disappear? Did it cease to exist?

What did you notice?

Sending love.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com

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Nino
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Re: Lost soul seeks guide!

Postby Nino » Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:27 am

Hi Ilona,
“I am- is a pointer to awareness, I am is a construct of language, it's made of two words- I and am. As if there is an entity I that does the being.
In your experience right now, is there anyone, anything doing the being? Can being be switched on and off? Can it be put on hold for a bit?”
Ah! I see, it is impossible to be someone doing ‘being’. I have to ‘be’ before ‘I am’. Being is being ‘I am’, being is being ‘you are’ and so on. Being, God, Source, No-Thingness, Life, whatever, is being everyone and everything. And I can see no 'I' in that.
“If being is labelled I, does that make the I -the be-er? Does that affect sense of aliveness if its labelled I or not? What if you label sense of being "schmok" does that affect the sense?”
By viewing ‘being’ as ‘I’ (I have you now), the sensation of being the do-er, the be-er: the sensation ‘I’ comes into being! So now we have the appearance of a separate ‘being’.

‘Schmok’, ‘being’, whatever you call it refers to the same beingness.
“See, seeing that I is just a label does not make sense of being disappear. That which does not exist does not appear or disappear. It's imagined.“
“Try this- close your eyes and imagine you are holding a melon in between your hands, imagine it so vividly that you can feel weight, texture, temperature, scent. Hold that image in the mind for a bit and watch how there is perceiving of sensations happening.
Open your eyes and look- what happened to the melon? Did it disappear? Did it cease to exist?
What did you notice?”
The melon was never there to disappear. The sensation was quite real, but only if there is no-thing to detract from the sensation.

Ilona, this is wonderful, I feel I’m about to see for my-self, what I have no doubt will be a surprise. Most of my trust has come from seeing the response of you & many others who do see.

In appreciation,
Nino

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Re: Lost soul seeks guide!

Postby Ilona » Fri Jun 28, 2013 7:01 pm

Good stuff. Lets investigate thoughts this time. Look at thoughts as they come up, sit and wait for them to pop in, watch the mechanism for a bit, then answer these questions:

Are you in control of thinking?
Where do thoughts come from?
Do they come in bundles or one by one at a time?
Can you stop thinking at will for half an hour?
Can you stop a thougt from coming?
Do you know what the next thought will be?

Once you answer these questions, look around the room and notice how mind labels everything. Where focus goes, labelling follows. Play with this for a bit.

Then look again at thoughts. Can a thought think?
Is I a different kind of thought? Can I thought think? Can it do anything? How about thought me? What this label point to?

Report what you notice.


Sending love.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com

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Re: Lost soul seeks guide!

Postby Nino » Sat Jun 29, 2013 3:27 pm

Ilona, peek-a-boo, I see you are the same ‘being’ I am!

I don’t really know how to thank you enough for helping me over that last step. Before I go into answering your questions, which I am grappling with, I would like to tell you what it was which proved to be the tipping point for me:

Before your help, using the Android App – I identified what turned out to be my deepest fear:
“I believe I will cease to exist if I stop believing I exist – without the belief ‘I am’ what happens to the ‘I’.”
You then followed up with this question. There was a little more, but this is what I really read:
“If being is labelled I, does that make the I -the be-er?”.

It then became clear. Without ‘being’ there can be no ‘I’. If I am to define myself as anything at all it can only be ‘being’. The sensation ‘being’ is ‘I’.

The paradox: ‘I don’t exist’ – suddenly makes sense. ‘I’ is the sensation of being, but there is no ‘I’, no-one. It is a little awkward to describe. I see, I am being, you are being, everyone is being, everything is being, every word & thought is being and all being is the same being.
Are you in control of thinking?
I cannot choose/control what thought to experience, nor can the choice be made for me since there is no-one to choose. So what is the movement of thought in response to? The ‘Law of Attraction’ concept provides an excellent way of looking at this, and I can best exemplify this with my own experience.

One of the things which drove me almost to the point of insanity before your help was a personal argument which I could not resolve, and I knew this because like any other subject it is bottomless. But how do you stop thinking about something so emotionally charged?

I now see we are the same being and the argument gets more absurd each time it comes to mind. Because each time it comes to mind, I see ‘I’ is a label for ‘being’ and so is ‘you’, and it is all the same ‘being’. And it gets laughable because it’s obvious I’ve been arguing with myself the whole time.

Bring law of attraction into the picture and I see the whole drama is ending simply because I’m not giving the situation attention any longer. How can I, it’s absurd.

At no point can I control my thinking, and yet I am responsible for what I am thinking.


Where do thoughts come from?
Do they come in bundles or one by one at a time?
Can you stop thinking at will for half an hour?
Can you stop a thought from coming?
Do you know what the next thought will be?

I hope you don’t mind me tackling these as a group.
I have no knowing of what my next thought will be, what it will be or where it will come from or when it will come. In truth I don’t even know a next thought will come. But I do know thought is the same being I am because like the thought ‘I am’ it always points to the same being.

I hope you don’t mind me leaving the rest of your questions for now.

Love and thanks
Nino

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Re: Lost soul seeks guide!

Postby Ilona » Sat Jun 29, 2013 10:40 pm

Peek-a-boo, nino!

Some interesting insights.
Good stuff, but don't stop here, keep digging.

Keep examining thoughts and tell me, are you responsible for what you are thinking? How does that work?
And have another go at answering questions, but not from what you know. Take a fresh look, spend time with it. Investigate. Describe what you SEE. Is there a thinker?


Sending love.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com

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Nino
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Re: Lost soul seeks guide!

Postby Nino » Sun Jun 30, 2013 2:23 am

Hi Ilona,

That I cannot think my next thought proves to me there is no me to think. A paradox if I ever saw one.

In that sense there is no me to be responsible for what I am thinking. So it seems responsibility, thinking and being some one, while sensations, are not real. Each thought, because I am thinking as someone, intensifies the sensation of being someone.

What I keep coming back to is that thought is the same being I am, and doesn’t seem to have an origin, no centre, nothing to grasp and hang on to and say it is this. Does thought exist?

The reason I can’t know is because there is no me to know. The sensation I am is just that, a sensation. So the knowing is not my knowing, and the thoughts are not my thoughts because there is no one to own them. So ‘I’ is my label for being and also my claim to ownership of ‘being’.

There being no ‘I’ there can be no one thinking and no one responsible for the thought. And now all my thoughts are becoming absurd – which sounds about right, every thought is looking more and more like a label.

Thoughts come and go, from where and to where is beyond me. So I have no knowledge of thoughts unless I am thinking them. Now I am wondering if I don’t exist, how can thoughts exist. It seems I am imagining it all including my self. And there’s ‘I’ again at the centre of everything. I, like Santa, am not, and yet I am? Thought is not and yet it is?

It’s looking like there is no-thing and no-one and existence is more a dream, a story or a fiction. It feels like existence itself is a dream.

Your help is simply wonderful!
Nino
It's a bit like light which can't be without dark - light being something and dark being no light.

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Ilona
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Re: Lost soul seeks guide!

Postby Ilona » Sun Jun 30, 2013 7:45 am

There is a sensation of thinking. Like sensation of seeing, hearing, touching smelling and tasting. Thinking too is a sensation. The content of thought is all just thought- labels, fiction, stories, blah blah...
But thinking is happening. Just like hearing is happening. And one of function of mind is labelling everything. So I is a label and it does not think, it's a thought. It's a part of language, tool for description.

There is an exercise in this blogpost. Do it here or on your own and after fishined, tell me, can label claim ownership. Does it matter in which way what is happening is described? Does it change what is happening? Does it affect feeling about what is happening?

http://markedeternal.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/labels.html

How about everything is happening- life is life-ing, but there is no I, no separate entity to which it's all happening. Knowing too is happening.. Or not knowing. :)
Truth realized will set you free.
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Re: Lost soul seeks guide!

Postby Nino » Sun Jun 30, 2013 11:39 pm

Hi Ilona,

I read your reply this morning and have been pondering it all day.

It is almost funny, when you point out ‘thinking is a sensation’ happening like sight, hearing and so on. That is so obviously true and these days I know trying to figure it out really doesn't work. What surfaces is the fear:

‘There is no thinker, then there is no me, and I am quite terrified of not being me.’

Two things are clearly visible, there being no thinker is a fact, that there never has been on is also fact. That you, and many others, have faced this and seeing beyond it is also obvious to me. So, once again, I’ll take encouragement there. Telling you my fear seems the easiest way to face it directly.

I’m going to have to give myself time to see past this one. There is no thinker seems more fundamentally scary than there being no me. It is not quite the feeling of tricking or fooling myself it is simply an almost nameless fear, knowing I have no idea of what I am about to see. It is beginning to dissolve and turn to excitement now – phew!

I did the exercise you asked, 10 minutes of direct experience using ‘I’ and a further 10 minutes without the ‘I’. The initial 10 minutes was really all about defining everything as happening either to me or around me. The second, seemed to be about things happening around me, separately. Then some way through it I noticed the fear of thought being so impersonal as to have no owner became progressively dominant.

So I must keep that fear in my focus until it dissolves enough for me to see beyond it, to see for myself. It is a deep sense of mistrust of letting go of thinking, like I am giving up my own existence for oblivion. Then even as I write it, it starts to become absurd. There never was a thinker! Even I know that.

From the perspective ‘I am’ thinking is very definitely happening just like you say. Like seeing or hearing. Absolutely ‘I’ is a label. But it seems thought cannot be without the sensation of ‘I’ or ‘being’ which ever describes it better.

On an intellectual level I get that life and thinking are happening all the time but also the fear that seeing this will end the sensation of being. There really is only one way to find out.

Thank you so much for your time and patience. I hope to have seeing beyond this fear by the time I reply to you again. If my response is slow it will only be because I’m giving your response plenty of time to sink in before responding in turn.

Love and thanks!
Nino

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Re: Lost soul seeks guide!

Postby Ilona » Mon Jul 01, 2013 8:49 am

There is no thinker, then there is no me, and I am quite terrified of not being me.’
Are you afraid to disappear? There is nothing to disappear! There was no thinker all along, only a belief in one. Once you examine thinking process you see that thoughts arise by themselves and they are not coming because you are thinking them, the thought I comes, but it's not a thinker, it's a thought. Sensation of being, awareness is not going to disappear. It's just the belief in a separate self/me drops. And nothing at all changes. Seeing is still happening, hearing, tasting, thinking, feeling, living goes on. Story in the head goes on. The belief in I-entity drops. Fear of disappearing is just that- a fear. There is nothing there already. Take a look behind the fear. What is there? What is there that needs to be protected from disappearing?

Keep looking, you are really so close.

Take a look- can that which does not exist stop existing?

Much love.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com

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Re: Lost soul seeks guide!

Postby Nino » Mon Jul 01, 2013 2:51 pm

Hi Ilona,
Take a look- can that which does not exist stop existing?
I am noticing the thoughts ‘I am’ and ‘I am doing’ and ‘this is happening’ are coming after the experience but as part of the same experience. It doesn’t feel like I am doing anything any longer, or even feeling any longer, but the on-going claim of a ‘me’ doing and feeling these things. For some reason I like it. When I use the word ‘I’ now it doesn’t feel like I am talking about ‘me’ any longer. It’s just… how else can I explain? Dropping the word ‘I’ is as absurd as using it.

It’s like the story is just happening by itself now, it’s not even about me any longer. So there is nothing to let go of, only seeing it is happening all by itself and has nothing to do with ‘me’ even though I am part of the story. So there is no letting go to do.

The fear: “There is no thinker, then there is no me, and I am quite terrified of not being me.” Is gone now, I’ve completely lost interest in it after focusing on it for a while. In the story I lost interest in it, because as I looked at it, it became less real. In another way, interest in that fear waned, and because there is much less thought of it, there is much less of it to claim as mine and so on. So now ‘I’ feels a bit like a believable story and shows itself to be a story because I can see how it’s been written, after the event. After the event the ‘I’ is added to it a bit like adding carrots to soup and calling it carrot soup.

If I look for another deeper fear, I’ll find one, it will be written into the story. And now in the story I’ve had enough of fear. So in a way the story of ‘me’ ends here because I cannot see through the illusion of me – it cannot be ‘me’ who recognises myself to be an illusion, and it cannot be another, because we are all the same being. So what’s left?

I don’t need to tell the story any longer now I see it just keeps happening. I really don’t want to analyse it because that will stop me from seeing – but then the analysis is part of the story life is creating? And since I am part of the story how can I be telling it?

My deepest appreciation,
Nino

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Re: Lost soul seeks guide!

Postby Nino » Mon Jul 01, 2013 6:37 pm

Hi again Ilona,

I thought I'd add this as it followed shortly after.

There is no ‘me’ who can investigate and see if there is an ‘I’. This is just happening. There is no ‘me’ to experience this intense frustration – but it really seems like some-one and that can only be ‘me’.

Focusing is happening
Attention is happening
Being is happening
Awareness is happening
Frustration is happening
I am is happening
The world is happening
Knowing is happening
Thinking is happening
Learning is happening
Discovering is happening
Doing is happening

And yet in my memory I decided to write all I have written here – because ‘my memory’ is created by adding ‘I’ to every event and literally reversing the story to make it look like there was intention and focus. Making it look like someone is here.
Because to read all I have typed here the mind must conclude ‘it was thought up, and who can think for you, so it had to be you’. But in truth it all just happened, there was no plan, no intention, no focusing of will, yadda yadda. But, when all is done, add it all up, label the do-er ‘I’, and ‘I’ take credit for what happened as though it was my intention all along.

Love and appreciation,
Nino

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Ilona
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Re: Lost soul seeks guide!

Postby Ilona » Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:27 am

Good work nino.
Can you tell form your everyday experiences and ordinary situations if anything has changed?

Take a look also, is there a enter to which experiencing is happening? Is there a line between here and there, a line between inside and outside?

Much love.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com


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