For Yellow

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perrym
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For Yellow

Postby perrym » Sun Apr 07, 2013 11:07 pm

Hi Yellow,

A couple of preliminaries:

- Please could you confirm that you have read the disclaimer on the Home Page

- This site has a nasty habit of logging you out while you spend a long time composing a post .... when you press 'submit', it cheerily tells you that you need to log in, and you've lost the lot. It is therefore best to write your reply elsewhere, then copy and paste the text into this website to reply - that way, you still have a copy if it throws your message away!

With that out of the way ...

Please could you tell me what brings you here? What hopes and expectations you have about the process, and what it could do for you?

best wishes

Perry

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perrym
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Re: For Yellow

Postby perrym » Sun Apr 07, 2013 11:10 pm

P.S. You may also find it helpful to click 'subscribe topic' at the very bottom of the page, then you'll be notified as soon as there is a reply ready to see

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yellow
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Re: For Yellow

Postby yellow » Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:57 am

Thank-you Perry.
Yes, I have read the disclaimer and that is all okay. Thanks for the advice re copying and pasting – makes sense.
Okay. So what brings me here – a longstanding deep conviction that I and the world are not all that they seem to be and an honest desire to come to understand the veil I seem to be looking though. I am a meditator and have had experiences of far greater peace and joy than I might ordinarily experience which draws me in and I had an experience this last year (albeit brief and not lasting) of what seems to be non-self where deeply weary of all the effort I seem to be making, there was an unexpected and different kind (perhaps un-willed) letting go and what followed was immediate intense concentration and bliss, and for that brief time, ‘I’ was nowhere to be found, before I marched back in and appropriated the experience.
Generally I can understand and remember (intellectually but not deeply know) that ‘I’ am a bundle of processes that arise and pass away continuously, and sometimes in meditation I understand this even more deeply and this understanding does affect for the positive how I live (less attached to me and mine), but I do not feel that there has been a fundamental / permanent shift in the understanding of self which leaves no doubt as to its truth. I feel that I still experience the world as if there is a me and a world – divided out, separated, dual. I do spend time looking for the self and I can’t always say that I find it and in a sense that is all that has happened, that I can’t say that I always find it as something separate to the different experiences that are arising…sounds, smells, thoughts…but some effort is always involved, a will of sorts creating the context for this to happen (except perhaps for the instance described above and one other time a long time ago a different kind of ‘beyond me’ experience that I never had before or have had since, that gave me a glimpse of I don’t know what, except that the quality of it was absolutely pure).
I would like to think that this process with you may, as a result of direct investigation, fundamentally / permanently unravel the mystery of non-self, non-duality but I am also aware that it might not. If that was to happen I imagine that it would help live a truly aligned life (aligned with reality) and that I would arrive at a place of no doubt about that.
Thanks Perry, look forward to hearing back from you,
Best wishes -
Yellow

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perrym
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Re: For Yellow

Postby perrym » Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:26 am

Hi Yellow,

Thanks for your very thorough intro.
an unexpected and different kind (perhaps un-willed) letting go and what followed was immediate intense concentration and bliss, and for that brief time, ‘I’ was nowhere to be found, before I marched back in and appropriated the experience.
Yes, as you've realised, this kind of experience illustrates an important point - the 'sense of self' can drop away temporarily without resulting in a permanent cognitive shift.

Conversely (and this is important from the point of view of having realistic expectations), even once the permanent cognitive shift has happened, the 'sense of self' still returns, but it is no longer 'believed in'.

As an analogy: if someone does not understand what a rainbow is, they might try to travel to its base to find a pot of gold ... once they understand that a rainbow is just an illusion, they will realise they can never get to its base. They have seen through the 'illusion of rainbow'. But they can still see pretty colours in the sky!

... so let's investigate what is going on in direct experience:

Sitting here now, seeing is happening - does this just happen, or does 'I' make it happen?
Hearing is happening - does this just happen, or does 'I' make it happen?
Tasting, smelling, feeling ... do these just happen?
Thoughts arise ... do they just arise, or does 'I' make them happen?

.... so what is 'I'?

Regards,

Perry

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yellow
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Re: For Yellow

Postby yellow » Tue Apr 09, 2013 10:12 am

Hi Perry,

Thanks for that. So I have been thinking about this ‘does I make them happen?’ and ‘..so what is I?’ Because if I look closely at thoughts or sounds or experiences that arise and which seem to arise by themselves I cannot find an I – there are just thoughts, sounds etc.

I investigated a little further – is there an I who consciously looks in a passing window, or chooses to go to sleep at a certain time or decides to shut the door etc, but it seems that while there is a series of experiences which arise – looking, recognition, acknowledgement, action, ‘I’ doesn’t determine those experiences but those experiences seem to form part of an ‘I’

I wondered then if it was more like a construct that surrounds and hold experiences together in one place but then when I look for a construct I cannot find it. The sense of holding together seems to just be a sense of holding together – or a richness of experiences bound up together, a complexity of conditioned experiences - energy, heat, tension, softness, fluidity…

So now I really don’t know what the ‘I’ is! I seems to rise ‘together with’ other experiences, or ‘on top of’ other experiences which in some ways makes it a rather unnecessary addition. Maybe the best I can manage to say about it is that perhaps a form of shorthand for all the different experiences that arise…

Hmmm, curious…!

Yellow

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perrym
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Re: For Yellow

Postby perrym » Tue Apr 09, 2013 10:48 pm

Hi Yellow,

Good observations :-)

So various possibilities have been ruled out - 'I' is not the thinker of thoughts, the seer of sights, the hearer of sounds etc ... as you have seen, these just arise, 'no doer of the deed is found'. Very good!

Let's look at the other possibilities you mentioned:
I seems to rise ‘together with’ other experiences, or ‘on top of’ other experiences which in some ways makes it a rather unnecessary addition.
Is there an observable process of 'addition'? Can you examine closely what, in direct experience, is being added? A sensation? A thought? What?
perhaps a form of shorthand for all the different experiences that arise
Perhaps ... but check it out until you are sure! Yes, it is possible to use 'I' as a thought-label, a shorthand way of referring to 'all experience' ... But is this really all that 'I' is - a label?

Check it out in direct experience - if 'I' is just a thought-label, then there is no 'I' in direct experience, only in thought - is this possible?

Regards,

Perry

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Re: For Yellow

Postby yellow » Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:50 pm

Hi Perry,

Thanks again for your response and for taking the time to guide me through this, I am appreciating the questions and the inquiry.

Sorry for the late reply today but I have been mulling over the questions and it’s been rather intense.

During the exploration this morning of whether there an observable addition of an ‘I’ it seemed as if I hit on something important with it because I started to feel a little fearful. So I explored the fear and I noticed that when the fear experience arises, there is the recognition of the experience as fear, and then I have the additional thought translation of ‘I feel fear’ – the experience is named and owned by this ‘I’ thought.

This seemed to trigger quite an internal response – my heart was beating very quickly while I began to understand that the ‘I’ is only a conceptual translation of experience. I understood also that ‘you’ or ‘other’ is also a conceptual translation of experience of everything that is not ‘I’ and that is where division/separation occurs.

I felt very odd after that (energetically) and decided to take some time to assimilate and I proceeded to have a very busy day, where my experience was relatively normal again.

If I look at what the ‘I’ is now tonight – I hear the words I use in my mind around the ‘I’ but it’s taking a lot of effort to define myself in terms of this ‘I’, almost as if there is no longer much interest in being an ‘I’ though I am still operating as an ‘I’. I don’t know if I am making any sense - the whole process today has been accompanied by a level of intensity that has been slightly mysterious and unsettling!

I look forward to hearing your response,
All the best -
Yellow

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Re: For Yellow

Postby yellow » Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:11 am

Hi Perry,
An after experience...it just came to me that the 'I' is not even a conceptual translation, its not even that because that would be to make it into 'something' with just another name.
That is as much as I can say at the moment but just wanted to share the extra experience which resulted in a release of today's built up energy/tension.
:)

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Re: For Yellow

Postby yellow » Thu Apr 11, 2013 9:17 am

Hi Perry -
Some further explorations arising from the last experience I reported on last night.
The 'I' only exists when other is perceived as a fixed entity - when I see that experience is not fixed, forever in flow, changing, uncontrolled, undirected then 'I' cannot come into existence because there is 'no-thing' for it to exist in relation to. The two go hand in hand, without one the other cannot exist.
If I say to myself 'This is my nose' but then ask 'what 'nose'?' my explorations lead me to a series of sensations that I have labeled nose but in reality there is no actual fixed permanent feature that is 'nose' to be found, and then there makes no sense that there is a 'my' or 'I'.

So when I forget this or am not in touch with the changing nature of reality (not even reality - just a label) and treat experiences as 'things' then 'I' also comes into being as a 'thing.' At these times the self seems to really exist.

But in a broader more refined state of awareness when the changing nature of experience is really perceived - then no things and no self!

All the best for now,
Yellow

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perrym
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Re: For Yellow

Postby perrym » Thu Apr 11, 2013 4:15 pm

Hi Yellow,

I've responded to the first of your last three posts, though in the light of the next two, it might seem out of date ... oh well, no harm going back to make sure!
there is the recognition of the experience as fear, and then I have the additional thought translation of ‘I feel fear’ – the experience is named and owned by this ‘I’ thought.
Very good!

So is 'I' is just a label used for thinking? Is there any 'I' in direct experience, or is it only a thought-construct?

You say that the experience is 'owned by ' the thought - so in direct experience, is there any ownership? Take a look at 'your' hand, or feel 'your' feet on the floor ... where does 'my' come from? Is it inherent in the immediate sensations? Or a thought added onto the sensations? Is anything ever owned?
If I look at what the ‘I’ is now tonight – I hear the words I use in my mind around the ‘I’ but it’s taking a lot of effort to define myself in terms of this ‘I’, almost as if there is no longer much interest in being an ‘I’ though I am still operating as an ‘I’.
Don't worry about "operating as an 'I'" ... a lifetime's habit does not drop away overnight.

However, seeing that 'I' is meaningless in the light of direct experience can be very simple and quick. In fact, it is such a simple and, in a sense, obvious fact that one can be inclined to pass over the realisation assuming "that cannot be it!"

So can you answer from direct experience: is there really a 'self' in any shape or form? Has there ever been?

Best wishes,

Perry

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perrym
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Re: For Yellow

Postby perrym » Thu Apr 11, 2013 4:22 pm

The 'I' only exists when other is perceived as a fixed entity - when I see that experience is not fixed, forever in flow, changing, uncontrolled, undirected then 'I' cannot come into existence because there is 'no-thing' for it to exist in relation to. The two go hand in hand, without one the other cannot exist.
Yes, what is called 'nonduality' is discovered when 'I' and 'other' are revealed as thought-constructs ... enjoy! :-)

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yellow
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Re: For Yellow

Postby yellow » Thu Apr 11, 2013 11:00 pm

Hi Perry - thanks for that :)

I think I answered your questions in the third of my mails earlier but actually it was only after sitting with your reply that I finally twigged...and relief! There is now the sense of understanding that I have been waiting for – now I get it! In direct experience, in direct experience….that’s the key. The rest is falsely believed thoughts about falsely believed permanent entities. At most these thoughts should be used as very provisional labels for passing phenomena, and even that is way too fixed for the actuality of direct experience.

From my direct experience I can now say that there is no self in any shape or form and that there never has been. From my direct experience the 'I' is clearly an illusion. It is almost too simple but really significant. In direct experience there is no decider, no doer, no chooser, no laughter, no pain...it all just arises and passes away - decisions are made, deeds are done, choices are made, laughter is had, pain is felt (without even calling any of it as such). How very, very bizarre and mysterious...and amazing.

The thoughts ask 'why?' but then the thoughts would, that seems to be what they do.

With gratitude,
Yellow

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perrym
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Re: For Yellow

Postby perrym » Thu Apr 11, 2013 11:12 pm

:-)

more later, for now, just :-)

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yellow
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Re: For Yellow

Postby yellow » Thu Apr 11, 2013 11:13 pm

thanks :)

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yellow
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Re: For Yellow

Postby yellow » Fri Apr 12, 2013 10:37 pm

Hi Perry,

Just to say that it all still seems to make sense today :) A few new understandings unfolding - thoughts in particular continue to run around my head but they seem less weighty, less important than ever. Am more present in experience as it unfolds and meditation is strong and still - with whatever is arising. Opening into that space more easily during the day - just a slight turning towards experience as it is and I am more present in it - it comes and goes easily, arising, passing. A calmness with that. Still interesting to notice that I am getting on through the day normally alongside this new understanding but there is little fuss because it is understood non-conceptually as self/other mind play. And as you say the habits of a lifetime wont drop away overnight.
Wishing you well for now,
Yellow


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