gattaca

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vinceschubert
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gattaca

Postby vinceschubert » Sat Feb 16, 2013 12:17 am

What shall i call you ?
But first a contract.
Are you willing to;
(try and) post every day ?
To give 120% honesty to yourself and me ?
To relate only from your own experiencing, no second hand knowledge, quoting etc.
To suspend all other seeking type activities for the duration of this ? (reading, viewing, meditating etc.)
Not expect a transfer of knowledge. We are not teachers.
I will ask questions, you will not attempt to answer them for me, you will communicate the response that you experience to me. The questions are to position you to SEE, to DISCOVER, to RECOGNISE something for yourself.
Agreed ?
If you haven't already seen it, there is intro info here, our disclaimer and a short video too. http://www.liberationunleashed.com/
If you could confirm you have seen all the above and would like me to be your guide - then we shall begin.

To use the quote function, first click "post reply"
Then scroll down to my post and highlight (drag mouse over) the question or part of it that you want to respond to, then click "quote" at the top of my reply. This will put the quote in the Reply editor. You then click after the quote and type your response.

Now, give me a rant on what your expectations are for being here. Your hopes, desires and what you actually expect might happen.

vince

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Re: gattaca

Postby vinceschubert » Sat Feb 16, 2013 7:19 pm

Hi Vince,

Yes, I've read and agree to the conditions. Thank you for helping me.

I've actually been reading Gateless Gatecrashers and could have sworn that I'd penetrated to the truth of no-self in my own process of self-inquiry, and perhaps I have, but the obviousness, ease, and detachment from identification seen just a week ago seems clouded... So I presume I have further to go.

To your question: Now, give me a rant on what your expectations are for being here. Your hopes, desires and what you actually expect might happen.

My embarrassing egotistical hopes/desires are:
Liberation will make me magically attractive to others.
It will free up energy currently absorbed by self-conscious preoccupations allowing me to be more effective as a person.
I'll be able to rub my brother's nose in the fact that I'm liberated while he continues to endlessly practice TM.
I'll be less inclined toward the addictions I use to avoid the pain of self-consciousness including tv, narcotic pain-killers, pornography, sleep (usually in that order).
I'll be recognized by others as somehow special and my sense of never being good enough will be a thing of the past.
I'll start my own website with articulate and insightful ramblings that will spill out of me effortlessly and I'll eventually get a book deal proving that I've arrived.

What I actually expect might happen: As I indicated above I may have some sense of this already. But my expectation is that there will be a certain ease as a byproduct of there not being any fixed identity that is experienced to be the manager of anything that is happening. And perhaps as a consequence, experiences of anxiety, depression, rumination may dissipate when there is no longer a feedback loop of identification constantly supporting them. There will be a deep ease of being despite whatever chaos arises and as such fear, anxiety, etc will have no power except to invite curiosity and amusement.

Thanks Vince,
gattaca

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Re: gattaca

Postby vinceschubert » Sat Feb 16, 2013 7:28 pm

and could have sworn that I'd penetrated to the truth of no-self in my own process of self-inquiry, and perhaps I have, but the obviousness, ease, and detachment from identification seen just a week ago seems clouded... So I presume I have further to go.
You may have indeed SEEn the Reality of No-self.
It is but a beginning. From that 'place', much de-conditioning will occur.
There will be a deep ease of being despite whatever chaos arises and as such fear, anxiety, etc will have no power except to invite curiosity and amusement.
This may eventuate, but only after the habits of "fear, anxiety etc" have been SEEn for what they are and replaced with the habit of "deep ease".
When fear or anxiety occur, at what point do you realize that this is what is happening ? ..or don't you. Are you just lost in it until some external event moves you on ?

vince

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gattaca
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Re: gattaca

Postby gattaca » Sat Feb 16, 2013 10:26 pm

A typical pattern is that some external trigger arises (often something at work), followed by insecurity, and then rumination. Up until a couple of weeks ago this cycle could easily take root and the negative feedback loop could lead to intense rumination and self-consciousness obsessing over the fate of this "I". As it is has been recently, a trigger will occur, and there will be a short period of "feeling lost in it" then a kind of spontaneous "remembering" occurs and it's similar to the movie analogy - whatever trial the character on the screen is enduring I remember it's not me and there's instant relief and a mild embarrassment that I was able to become so involved.

However, in the past couple of days I have noticed the interval of being "lost in it" (the identification) growing in length and intensity instead of dissipating (as a result of some more intense triggers) so that in itself has prompted some fear that what was seen was not seen clearly enough. To refer to your earlier question, there must be an expectation that after seeing no-self periods of identification can no longer occur. Or, at least if they do, they will never be strong enough to cause insecurity about the truth of what I have seen.

Answered in another way, I was remembering that there is no "I" and snapping out of it rather quickly, but with increased stress the "I" seems to be returning and hanging out rather longer. Also, my experience is that when I felt the "I" was seen clearly to be an illusion I could see that it was either appearing or not appearing. But once even slight identification occurred a continuum of "degrees" of identification appears... it is no longer binary... and it appears some "process" must occur again.

I hope this answers your question and I didn't go too far afield. I'm sure you'll let me know whether to keep it more brief or if this elaboration is helpful.

Thanks Vince

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Re: gattaca

Postby vinceschubert » Sun Feb 17, 2013 8:47 pm

good morning.
Andrew is going to work with you as time zones and work load means some inevitable delays.
i understand your impatience (keen-ness), but suggest that (as time is purely conceptual) the only place that you can rush to is where you already are. While you wait for Andrew, you might consider this; You already have what you are looking for. You just don't see it (completely) yet.

love

vince

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Re: gattaca

Postby gattaca » Sun Feb 17, 2013 9:37 pm

Thank you Vince.

With much appreciation.

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Re: gattaca

Postby Andrew White » Sun Feb 17, 2013 11:38 pm

Hi,

I see from your last post that you're really noticing the triggers that arise that are leading to an identification with 'self'. That's good progress and it's very good that you're taking that step back and seeing what's going on.

It's perfectly normal for something that affects us to begin circling around, cropping up over and over in our thoughts and stirring emotions, at times quite strongly. So don't put any energy into worrying over this. That's as much use as putting energy into worrying over a television drama.

I want to start by thinking about your motivation for awakening. You really need to be clear about this because realisation or awakening is about seeing, it's never about escaping. If there's something to be escaped or avoided it strengthens the drama - it's all part of the illusion.

So look at this. In your day look for avoidance arising, but look clearly. Remember, it's not about saying to yourself, 'I shouldn't want to avoid this.' When the feeling to want to avoid arises try to find or see what it is that wants to avoid anything. Just look for it.

You can do this equally well with desire. Don't judge your desires, that's a waste of time. From the smallest on up just be aware of desire but when it arises look for where it's coming from. Is it from a me? Can you find a 'me' there?

Remember to say it as you see it and just report whatever it is.

Best wishes,

Andrew
'Confine yourself to the present.' - Marcus Aurelius

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Re: gattaca

Postby gattaca » Mon Feb 18, 2013 12:55 am

Looking now I sense a subtle desire for a finality... a place beyond any possibility of being hooked into identification and reactivity once and for all. I have grown very tired and frustrated with temporary realizations and transient state/non-states of no-self, non-dual awareness, etc. I don't want temporary states - however pleasant they are I know that thats not what this is about. I have other desires that regularly appear that are petty and embarrassing... Primarily those noted in my first post to Vince above regarding my desires/hopes.

When I consider the source of desire (or avoidance)...

It is exceedingly difficult to describe. I know all the rote answers ("just thoughts, sensations"). The best I think I can say at this point is that there is a feeling of contraction. When I had a realization of no-self in past weeks my experience was that the self was just a particular flavor of thought that appeared occasionally and had no power - no possibility actually - to "bind" or cause suffering. It seemed the search was over. But of course I'm here again, somehow impossibly trying to see through something that i somehow know not to be there. Granted, the sense of self now feels very subtle in relation to how it's appeared most of my life... But perhaps after experiencing no-self, any self feels very constricting.

Thanks Andrew,

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Re: gattaca

Postby gattaca » Mon Feb 18, 2013 2:47 am

I also notice that when I turn my attention inward in a deliberate and focused attempt to look for the self, there is a blankness, thought stops temporarily, and there is something similar to a trance. There is a certain quality to it that feels like it is a protective mechanism. It's as if when I intently look in that direction I am quickly ushered into some holding cell where no damage can be done. It could be that I am just at the limit of the mind to be able to see this. During my last tour of no-self certainly the mind did not have any part to play.

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Re: gattaca

Postby Andrew White » Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:30 am

Hi,
Looking now I sense a subtle desire for a finality... a place beyond any possibility of being hooked into identification and reactivity once and for all. I have grown very tired and frustrated with temporary realizations and transient state/non-states of no-self, non-dual awareness, etc. I don't want temporary states - however pleasant they are I know that thats not what this is about. I have other desires that regularly appear that are petty and embarrassing... Primarily those noted in my first post to Vince above regarding my desires/hopes.
That's not a bad start, but watch for the 'subtle desire for a finality.' It's okay to say it's a full on desire for finality if that's the case, there are no right or wrong answers, so always resist the urge, as you have done so far, to say what you think you should or anyone expects.
I have other desires that regularly appear that are petty and embarrassing... Primarily those noted in my first post to Vince above regarding my desires/hopes.
Desire isn't an issue, it's what we do with it that makes the 'hook'. Here's a petty example, 'I want some cheese.' - that desire arises and if I don't touch it it just passes through like a raindrop falling. But... I want some cheese>But I know cheese will make me fat (self-image crisis, hook no.1)>But I shouldn't care about self-image (I'm shallow and attached, hook no.2)> etc.>etc.>

So look at the petty desires, the not so petty desires and don't focus on them, focus on stage 2,3, etc. What happens when the desire arises? Look very closely at the 'hook' and let me know what you see.

Best wishes,

Andrew
'Confine yourself to the present.' - Marcus Aurelius

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Re: gattaca

Postby gattaca » Mon Feb 18, 2013 8:58 pm

When I explore the "hook" it seems to result from inattention, or at least inattention is a significant contributing factor. In meditation for example there is a conscious intent to "let everything be as it is". In this context it is often easier to recognize the hook when it occurs, and then recover. Outside of meditation it becomes more difficult. There can even be long stretches where it's not really a question of being hooked by some thought or feeling - it's continuous... a continuous state of identification until at some point (after minutes, days, weeks?) there is a stepping back.

As this moment I don't feel strong identification with any particular thought or feeling, but I do feel a subtle identity (compared to previous "states" where the sense of identity was noticeably absent). When I look into what is the hook there ("interface" or "point of contact") with this subtle sense of identity I notice a subtle shift in the quality of my experience... there is a bit of a "hum", a subtle warmth in the body, and occasionally some electrical pulse type sensations that seem to originate in the chest. There is a sense of the distinction of foreground and background becoming a bit less distinct. The mind goes somewhat blank... or rather it's utterings become less intelligible... fragmented and unformed, like a cell phone with a bad connection.

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Re: gattaca

Postby Andrew White » Mon Feb 18, 2013 10:40 pm

Hi gattaca,
When I explore the "hook" it seems to result from inattention, or at least inattention is a significant contributing factor.
Yes it does take practice but it's not that we're trying to get perfect at it just see the principle in action.
In this context it is often easier to recognize the hook when it occurs, and then recover. Outside of meditation it becomes more difficult.
The value is in realising the difference between seeing a feeling or thought arise and just letting it be, or chasing after it, which can make it seem like 'my thought', 'my feeling'. So even trying to 'recover' can be a form of reaction if it involves judgement.
When I look into what is the hook there ("interface" or "point of contact") with this subtle sense of identity I notice a subtle shift in the quality of my experience...
Okay, good but remember we're not trying to 'escape' the sense of identity, it's about seeing what is behind it. When you look watch out for the urge to seek, it's just about seeing.

Look at the thought or feeling arising, look at follow on thoughts and feelings arise. These are processes, they arise and pass away. When you look at these thoughts and feelings arise ask if they have an owner or if they just happen. Is there a desire for there to be an owner? Let me know how you get on.

Best wishes,

Andrew
'Confine yourself to the present.' - Marcus Aurelius

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Re: gattaca

Postby gattaca » Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:32 pm

I am unable to identify any kind of "owner" aside from a subtle background "sense" of an owner. As this sense is more consistent than say a thought (extremely tranisient) or feeling (less transient) it seems more pervasive and substantial. Certainly this does not make it real, just more difficult to say that's "not what I am".

Yes, I do sense that there is a desire for there to be an owner... a feeling of "I want to get this!" I can see that thought/feeling/etc. as just a passing phenomenon within this subtle sense of I... but I'm unable to recognize the subtle sense of I as just a transient phenomona in this moment. I can feel the identification, like a tightened muscle that I don't know I'm clenching, so I don't know how to release it.

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Re: gattaca

Postby Andrew White » Tue Feb 19, 2013 1:33 pm

Hi gattaca
I can feel the identification, like a tightened muscle that I don't know I'm clenching, so I don't know how to release it.
If you meditate and notice a muscle that's not relaxed what do you do? When you see it what happens?
Yes, I do sense that there is a desire for there to be an owner... a feeling of "I want to get this!" I can see that thought/feeling/etc. as just a passing phenomenon within this subtle sense of I... but I'm unable to recognize the subtle sense of I as just a transient phenomona in this moment.
There's nothing to looking but just looking.
Can we recognise something that isn't there? Belief that there's something to recognise leads to...?
I am unable to identify any kind of "owner" aside from a subtle background "sense" of an owner.


What does the world look like if there are no 'owners'? Look at it happening and ask what it looks like if it all just is without a damn thing controlling anything - without you or anything being in control in a single micro-second of it?

Let me know what you see.

Best wishes,

Andrew
'Confine yourself to the present.' - Marcus Aurelius

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Re: gattaca

Postby gattaca » Tue Feb 19, 2013 8:04 pm

If you meditate and notice a muscle that's not relaxed what do you do? When you see it what happens?
There is something in just seeing it that causes it to spontaneously release.
Belief that there's something to recognise leads to...?
Belief that there's something to recognize leads to seeking. It's what starts the search and keeps it going. Yes... I must sit with that. Any recognition (at least the way I'm considering it here) would be a time-bound event, achieved by an entity. This may or may not happen but I can see that if/when a recognition occurs it would only benefit that which wasn't there in the first place... and it just collapses into this. I would be impressed with this realization were it not for the fact that I have had countless similar realizations... almost to the degree that I become embarrassed and disgusted with myself for having them - as they seem to always disappear in the wind... leaving no trace. But that just proved what I described doesn't it?! There is nothing to benefit from these realizations. Seeking stops because the fruitlessness of seeking is discovered. Is this yet another realization that disappears when the ego appears? Are these just intellectual realizations that have no effect in terms of liberation. I can't deny that I see the truth in them... at the same time I've seen that glimpsing the truth gives me no lasting reprieve from suffering and identification. It feels like such a tail-chase this cycle of realization/delusion.
What does the world look like if there are no 'owners'? Look at it happening and ask what it looks like if it all just is without a damn thing controlling anything - without you or anything being in control in a single micro-second of it?
Yes, this does seem the truth of it. It actually makes no sense for there to be any controller. What are the most feasible options? 7 billion controllers (on this microdot of a planet alone) controlling what is? Ridiculous. One God? Where? How? If there is such a thing as God it must be "just this", "all that is", etc. But looking directly at your question...
What does the world look like if there are no 'owners'?
It's all just happening. I can see that. There is a hesitance to elaborate for some reason, but I'm open to doing so if you think it would be helpful. I think there is a sense that when I begin eloborating on such points I only end up recalling past insights and speaking intellectually based on that. I'm really trying to stick with what is here now in present experience.

Many thanks Andrew for your continued guidance... I'm very grateful for it. I have confidence that this process of dialogue can (with time) erode my preconception. As I mentioned, I feel I have had glimpses of the truth of there being no self, but it seems to be reasserting itself strongly now in my thoughts and behavior. It is not comfortable, but it leads me to believe it is being backed into some corner.

Thanks Again.


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