The I-thing

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Ingen
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The I-thing

Postby Ingen » Mon Sep 19, 2011 9:42 pm

Hi,
This is a nice shiny new forum here!

I'd like some help figuring out whether i exist or not.

I have done a lot of reading. Also looking. I agree that the I is a construct. But I don't feel liberated... There never has been a big shift, no drama, no fear. So I guess something is missing?

I'm looking forward talking to you.

Ingen

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Ilona
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Re: The I-thing

Postby Ilona » Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:15 pm

Great to see you here, Ingen.
What do you expect liberation to be like? List all your expectations here please.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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Ingen
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Re: The I-thing

Postby Ingen » Tue Sep 20, 2011 7:16 am

Thanks for the welcome!

I expect that when liberated, that I:
- Know the truth, permanently. Not only while thinking about it.
- Feel free. Free from judging myself and others constantly. Free from the fear of failing.
- Stop obsessing about appearances - body, success, money etc.
- Eternal bliss and fireworks (not really.)

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Ilona
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Re: The I-thing

Postby Ilona » Tue Sep 20, 2011 8:21 am

Eternal bliss? Lol.
Nope.
Life goes on as it does. Every state is fleeting. Nothing is permanent. And no fireworks either.
But just leave all expectations for now and take a look.

What happens if you let the thought in : there is no separate entity at all in real life?
Check what comes up, feelings, thoughts, put them down here.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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Ingen
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Re: The I-thing

Postby Ingen » Tue Sep 20, 2011 8:55 am

First feeling was slight panic. (like now it is getting serious….)

In my direct experience, there is no separate entity. There is only the world, including hands typing, voices, feelings. But this happens only when alone.
As soon as one of the voices is directed to me, I respond and communicate from entity to entity. And stay that way most of the day, until I notice.

When I think some more about it, everything becomes blurry. Separate entity, what is that? Everything evolves, and some parts of it get a temporary label. But on the plane where I am an entity, there are other entities which I label "friend", "foe" or "food".

Real life? What is real? I only know my world.

…and while everything gets more and more blurry, I feel like a thinking, clever entity again.

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Damon Kamda
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Re: The I-thing

Postby Damon Kamda » Tue Sep 20, 2011 9:00 am

As soon as one of the voices is directed to me, I respond and communicate from entity to entity. And stay that way most of the day, until I notice.
Yes, that is what appears to happen. But if you look deeply now at reality- does the separation ever actually occur?
But on the plane where I am an entity, there are other entities which I label "friend", "foe" or "food".
And what plane is that? On what plane is there an I that is an entity distinct from other entities? Look, Ingen. You're on the edge here.

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Ingen
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Re: The I-thing

Postby Ingen » Tue Sep 20, 2011 9:13 am

It feels like the separation occurs upon outside impulses. I feel like no-entity when looking at my hands, what they are doing. (They look like separate entities..).

When I got hungry just before, I felt like an entity. Hunger occurs. I have to get up and get myself a piece of bread. I have to get my body up and get a piece of bread. Or is my body getting up and getting itself a piece of bread, taking the me with it?

In hindsight I see that eating can happen without the me.

On which plane am I an entity apart from others?
In my story. In my life story. In their life story. I define them, they define me. I believe them, they believe me.

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Damon Kamda
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Re: The I-thing

Postby Damon Kamda » Tue Sep 20, 2011 9:18 am

On which plane am I an entity apart from others?
In my story. In my life story. In their life story. I define them, they define me. I believe them, they believe me.
Exactly- so what is the substance of this story- what is it made of?

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Ingen
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Re: The I-thing

Postby Ingen » Tue Sep 20, 2011 9:25 am

Ideas. Thoughts. Habits. Neuronal patterns.

Like everything else, too. What do I know about trees which is not neuronal patterns in my brain?
But that about neurons is also just a story I have heard.

And I get lost in blurriness again.

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Damon Kamda
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Re: The I-thing

Postby Damon Kamda » Tue Sep 20, 2011 9:31 am

Nope, just a thought of getting lost in bluriness arising, Ingen.
There is no one to get lost in bluriness.

Yes, the substance of the story is ideas, thoughts, habits. Exactly.

You see that? Can you get a clear view of this?

Now in any circumstance, any situation, in the past or in an imagined future- can there ever be a you which is not an idea, though, habit? In this very moment, is there a you which is not an idea?

The truth is really simple and obvious, Ingen. It takes a little courage to look, but once recognized it will become clear.

Look- in immediate experience- is there a self other than (habitual) thoughts of a self? Has there ever been anything but a story about you?

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Ingen
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Re: The I-thing

Postby Ingen » Tue Sep 20, 2011 9:59 am

I think there are two things which I am using to defend my self

1) I am my body doing its thing, and it is using a realistic, very convincing self-model, a flexible body map which includes tools like pencils and cars.

2) Habits (neuronal patterns) exist on a physical level and as real as rain water trickling down its way down the roof.
Therefore I am real. Stories are real too. USA is just a story, too, and it is real anyway?!

In this moment. There is a body typing. Thoughts about this and that. Voices are being heard. Is there an I hearing them? It disappears when I look, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

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Damon Kamda
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Re: The I-thing

Postby Damon Kamda » Tue Sep 20, 2011 10:12 am

I see what you mean.

Yes, stories are real. Real as stories. And yes, the thought patterns, the habit that suggests there is a self may very well have a "concrete" physical correlate in neuronal patterns and may even be made visible through biofeedback or neural scans. Sure. No need to deny the existence of these patterns and the stories attached to them.

Although the crux of the matter here is: is there actually a central self in the human organism? That self that the story revolves around, the central character. The thinker, the hearer, the chooser, the looker. Is it there as an actual entity?
It disappears when I look, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
Then look closer, Ingen. Is a you ever needed for anything? Does reality need a you to be?

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Ingen
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Re: The I-thing

Postby Ingen » Tue Sep 20, 2011 10:33 am

Here I get to the question again, what is reality? The physical universe? This certainly doesn't need a me. But does it exist without me? Does the falling tree make a sound when nobody is hearing it?

When matter becomes sufficiently complicated, there arise feedback loops which make it self-conscious. So a temporary lump of matter feels like a subject, an I. Would it do that without others telling it to do so? No. This is the thing humanity consists of - stories. Otherwise there would be just lumps of matter doing their thing.

Our stories is our reality.

I am theorizing too much. I will think about your questions some more, have to get back to work though.

Talk to you later, thanks for your input.

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Damon Kamda
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Re: The I-thing

Postby Damon Kamda » Tue Sep 20, 2011 10:42 am

Yes, a lot of theorizing. Mental gymnastics. All fine and good, but not the point here at all.

Don't think about my questions, Ingen, look.

Does the story belong to someone?
Is there a you that is creating the story?
Is there a you that is not part of the story?
have to get back to work though
Same here.

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Ingen
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Re: The I-thing

Postby Ingen » Tue Sep 20, 2011 2:41 pm

I was watching my thoughts .

There are thoughts, and there is a underlying thought that there is a me.
This I-am-me-thought is maybe just a (successful) meme. Use tools. Use fire. Use names.

For a child is reacting to a certain name = reward. Not reacting = punishment. >>> heavy conditioning
You have to give a thing a name in order to claim ownership. Parents claim ownership over their children by giving them a name. That sense of ownership sticks.
Am I my name? I can change my name and will still identify with the "I" .
Theorizing again.

Is there a me which is creating the story? No. It has always been there, as far as I can remember.
Is there a me which is not part of the story? No.

I keep looking. I still feel like I am me.


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