requesting jowate

This is a read-only part of the forum. All threads where seeing happens are stored here and come from this forum, the Facebook guiding area and various LU blogs. The complete list, sorted by guide, contains all links. The archives include threads of those that came to LU already seeing as well.
User avatar
Budo
Posts: 33
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2012 8:43 am

requesting jowate

Postby Budo » Wed Dec 26, 2012 12:17 pm

I am ready to go. I have been on the Buddhist path of 'Insight' for some years now but always get stuck at 'no self' I think it's to do with when experiencing events I think well there must be something or a 'self' experiencing it!

User avatar
jowate
Posts: 396
Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2012 9:52 pm
Location: Wales, UK

Re: requesting jowate

Postby jowate » Wed Dec 26, 2012 2:06 pm

Hi Dharmavira,

Excellent! Let's just cover some basic 'ground rules' for this exploration first. I'm just pasting these, but let me know if you're ok with them:

First, please really look at / focus on what the questions are pointing to in direct experience, and respond with complete honesty about your perceptions (e.g. not what you know conceptually and think is the 'right response', but what you directly observe and know now, from immediate experience).

Second, really focus as strongly as possible and look as clearly and comprehensively as you can. To support this, I’d ask you to put aside reading / listening to / watching all other ‘spiritual’ material while you're engaged with this direct pointing process. In fact, as much as possible, avoid any media input that will tend to take you away from the direct looking at the nature of experience.

Really focusing means keeping to the point – the direct pointing is about looking and responding with what you see. ‘Stuff’ that’s happening in your life right now is the fuel for your looking, but I don’t need to know any details. ‘Stuff’ is happening to everyone all the time!

And third, try to send a response once a day if you possibly can. I’ll try to do likewise, though my responses might be a bit less often or brief while I'm on retreat (until 11 Jan). This works best if there is a certain intensity of focus.

If you're ok with that, it'd be helpful if you could just write a bit about whatever you hope or expect from seeing through the self view. What would it be like, what would you be like?

T.x

User avatar
Budo
Posts: 33
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2012 8:43 am

Re: requesting jowate

Postby Budo » Thu Dec 27, 2012 7:58 am

Thank you jowate, I am happy with all you said.
I suppose I hope that seeing through self view will free me up from the ongoing Dukkha in life.
What would it be like? I imagine very 'freeing' ?

User avatar
jowate
Posts: 396
Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2012 9:52 pm
Location: Wales, UK

Re: requesting jowate

Postby jowate » Fri Dec 28, 2012 5:52 pm

Ok, that's fair enough and not over-stating it!

this kind of statement will be very familiar to you, but I'd like you to turn it over 'conceptually and emotionally' -

There is no ‘self’, no ‘me’, no ‘I’, and there never has been. The sense of ‘self’ and what appears to be ‘selfing’ behaviour have always arisen in the complete absence of any truly existing ‘I’.

Let me know your responses and feelings around it, as clearly as possible.

User avatar
Budo
Posts: 33
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2012 8:43 am

Re: requesting jowate

Postby Budo » Fri Dec 28, 2012 7:05 pm

Thank you. Yes I have come across these sort of reflections before and conceptually they seem true and 'fair enough'. When I turn over the reflection there is no me, there is a small voice that calls out. Ah but something is experiencing something and I suspect that that small voice is possibly the core of my delusion.

On a practical note, I will try to respond to you every day but I do not have a computer at home and will be away from work until 7.30 a.m. on the 1st of January. I have just got an iPhone and if I can learn how to work it I may be able to respond to you during the next three days.

User avatar
jowate
Posts: 396
Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2012 9:52 pm
Location: Wales, UK

Re: requesting jowate

Postby jowate » Fri Dec 28, 2012 7:23 pm

Hi Dharmavira, No worries, just respond when you can. Good luck with the iPhone!

Yes, it's that 'small voice' that you need to look at - something is experiencing something, but that something is not 'you' or 'self'.

The thing about the 'self' or 'me' is that it isn't real, it doesn't exist as such. Sense experiences are real - impermanent yes, but they do arise and pass. But there is not a 'me' having or doing these experiences. There is just 'experiencing' happening.

Try this with sense arisings. You can do this in meditation or just when you have a space with nothing else to do. Notice body sensations happening.

- Are 'you' doing anything to make them happen? Or are they just arising of their own accord so to speak?

- Are 'you' there as an 'experiencer'? Who/what actually experiences them?

You could, if you wish, do this with sounds and sights as well. But let me know how you get on with the investigation in relation to body sensations, at least.

all the best

User avatar
Budo
Posts: 33
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2012 8:43 am

Re: requesting jowate

Postby Budo » Tue Jan 01, 2013 12:48 pm

'I' am not doing anything to make sense experiences happen they just arise of their own accord. As for what actually experiences them? It seems to be a combination of body and conciousness.
When I first started investigating this two days ago, initially 'I' had the disconcerting impression that 'nothing' was experiencing them , then almost immediately my mind came in with the thought 'thats nonsense !'. So in a sense for a moment 'I' was not there as an experiencer.
Another thing that I have noticed since starting this no-self enquiry is that my whole sense experience is noticably 'lighter'

User avatar
jowate
Posts: 396
Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2012 9:52 pm
Location: Wales, UK

Re: requesting jowate

Postby jowate » Tue Jan 01, 2013 1:31 pm

When I first started investigating this two days ago, initially 'I' had the disconcerting impression that 'nothing' was experiencing them , then almost immediately my mind came in with the thought 'thats nonsense !'. So in a sense for a moment 'I' was not there as an experiencer.
Good! No-thing is experiencing them, no-thing is what you / we 'are'. Or a way of talking about that. So your immediate impression was right on, then in comes the mind. So can you 'do' these 'lookings' without the mind, outside of the mind?

Good also observing that your sense experience is noticably 'lighter' - that suggests you're looking in the right direction!

So, keep looking at the other areas I suggested and let me know your observations.

User avatar
Budo
Posts: 33
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2012 8:43 am

Re: requesting jowate

Postby Budo » Fri Jan 04, 2013 2:10 am

So in relation to sounds and sights.
Lets start with sights. I found this more difficult to investigate. It seems obvious that I am not doing anything to make them happen they too just arise of thier own accord. The more I explored sights the more amazing and mysterious they seemed to be. It seemed possible to 'educate' your eyes to see more. i.e. looking at the Buddha images on my shrine I could start to look at them with a sculptors eyes and graduall appreciate thier form more and more. However in the end asking the question , am I there as an experiencer ? Who/what actually experiences them? The more I look the more I just simply don't know. There is an experience of sight and pretty miraculous it is but I cannot tell who or what actually experiences it !
Sounds now. Nearly all sounds I am not doing anything to make them happen. The exceptions are things like clearing my throat or the sound of my breathing. So generally they just arise of thier own accord. Am I there as an experiencer? Superficially I would say yes but then when I look more deeply it too becomes more mysterious like the sights. There is the experience of sounds but how and where they are experienced seems elusive.
You also asked if I could do these lookings without the mind, outside of the mind?
I take it you mean a kind if direct experience at a level before'the mind' starts labeling?

User avatar
jowate
Posts: 396
Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2012 9:52 pm
Location: Wales, UK

Re: requesting jowate

Postby jowate » Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:08 pm

Lets start with sights. I found this more difficult to investigate. It seems obvious that I am not doing anything to make them happen they too just arise of thier own accord. The more I explored sights the more amazing and mysterious they seemed to be. It seemed possible to 'educate' your eyes to see more. i.e. looking at the Buddha images on my shrine I could start to look at them with a sculptors eyes and graduall appreciate thier form more and more. However in the end asking the question , am I there as an experiencer ? Who/what actually experiences them? The more I look the more I just simply don't know. There is an experience of sight and pretty miraculous it is but I cannot tell who or what actually experiences it !


Ok, good – noticing that sights arise of their own accord. ‘Educating’ your eyes to see is interesting, but not directly relevant to this enquiry. But asking who experiences them, and getting the ‘don’t know’ response is very much in the right direction. You can try the same question and investigation in relation to all the senses.
Sounds now. Nearly all sounds I am not doing anything to make them happen. The exceptions are things like clearing my throat or the sound of my breathing. So generally they just arise of thier own accord. Am I there as an experiencer? Superficially I would say yes but then when I look more deeply it too becomes more mysterious like the sights. There is the experience of sounds but how and where they are experienced seems elusive.
You also asked if I could do these lookings without the mind, outside of the mind?
I take it you mean a kind if direct experience at a level before'the mind' starts labeling?


So it’s clear that some sounds are just arising of themselves. Look again at what appear to be exceptions: ‘you’ clear your throat – is the sound that arises caused by ‘you’? Do ‘you’ have any control or way of determining the sound that arises? The same obviously applies to the act of throat-clearing – are ‘you’ doing it (or is it just happening because of conditions, for example)?

Doing these lookings ‘outside the mind’ is simply as you describe – the mind may or may not do its thing, labelling, commenting, it doesn’t really matter. Just ignore what the mind is doing and focus on the direct experience ‘in the seeing just the seeing, in the hearing just the hearing’ etc.

So carry on looking in this way at the arisings of the senses until you are clear that either ‘I don’t know’ or that it’s just happening ‘spontaneously’, without ‘me’ being involved at all.

User avatar
Budo
Posts: 33
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2012 8:43 am

Re: requesting jowate

Postby Budo » Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:33 pm

This is the business. Already I see and feel thing differently. Fear arises and I don't immediatly suppress it stronger emotions arise and I really start to see that life is happening spontaineously...my 'willpower' is nonexistant in the face of reality. I REALLY DO NOT KNOW ! but that is good.
I am trying to cut back on all artificial stimulation...however as part of my job I watch 45 camera screens !
I'm off for two day so can concentrate on looking and doing natural things.
I'll try to get to the Library to keep in touch.
I'm beggining to realise that actually there is No-self!
Life has got a lot more interesting !

User avatar
Budo
Posts: 33
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2012 8:43 am

Re: requesting jowate

Postby Budo » Fri Jan 11, 2013 5:06 pm

So reviewing what I wrote yesterday, I now see that 'my' willpower is not non-existant, in fact it seems to get in the way of really seeing this !
It's as if the habits of a lifetime have so much momentum that they largly dictate ones self -view.
I will continue to look !

User avatar
jowate
Posts: 396
Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2012 9:52 pm
Location: Wales, UK

Re: requesting jowate

Postby jowate » Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:17 pm

That's great - so for the weekend at least, keep looking at direct experience in the sense-arisings as in my previous post, with the question in mind: is this me, am 'I' doing this, am 'I' experiencing this?

User avatar
Budo
Posts: 33
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2012 8:43 am

Re: requesting jowate

Postby Budo » Mon Jan 14, 2013 2:30 pm

So now it's getting interesting !
Questioning on this level really throw's me.
Sure there is 'experience but ...." is this me ?" all that seems to be happening is an unfolding of sensations then occasionally a deeper sense of intense nothing- ness. A kind of vitality...I can't think of a better way to put it.
"am I doing this "... breahting is happening, the sensations flow on ...seeing is happening...all 'I'm' doing is looking, trying to 'get it' !
" am 'I' experiencing this ? "..... now I'm really flummoxed ! Reminds me of a time I was on a meditation weekend and the geezer asked "Do I actually exist ? "...that totally threw me.

So life flows on, 'I' have given up control and still 'I' try to see this , to get it !.

I hope that's not all to vauge ?

User avatar
jowate
Posts: 396
Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2012 9:52 pm
Location: Wales, UK

Re: requesting jowate

Postby jowate » Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:16 pm

all that seems to be happening is an unfolding of sensations then occasionally a deeper sense of intense nothing- ness. A kind of vitality...I can't think of a better way to put it


This is really spot-on. You say “all 'I'm' doing is looking, trying to 'get it'!” but are ‘you’ (the self, the ‘I’) even doing this? What is looking? If the ‘I’ is ultimately only a thought, how can a thought ‘look’?

Yet looking is happening – can you allow the one who is looking to look without any need to identify it as ‘me’?

“Do I actually exist” – well undoubtedly there is ‘this’ – there is experiencing. Is this ‘I’? Well, that is the question!

You’re doing well – keep on looking!


Return to “ARCHIVES”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 21 guests