Bill - Ready to start

This is a read-only part of the forum. All threads where seeing happens are stored here and come from this forum, the Facebook guiding area and various LU blogs. The complete list, sorted by guide, contains all links. The archives include threads of those that came to LU already seeing as well.
User avatar
Krm
Posts: 73
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2012 2:15 pm

Bill - Ready to start

Postby Krm » Tue Dec 25, 2012 7:17 pm

Hello Bill

I have now had some days to assimilate what has happened in my life, and would like to start please

thank you

Kathy

User avatar
Bill
Posts: 1353
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2012 5:08 am
Location: Pacific NW, USA

Re: Bill - Ready to start

Postby Bill » Tue Dec 25, 2012 8:56 pm

Hello Kathy and Merry Christmas,

OK, lets go ahead and start. If things come up for you around your friend, just let them come up...
since you indicated you would be traveling and have a few days to get back to me
let's go with two things.

So what I like to ask everyone first, is this:

What is your reaction when I say that the you that you think you are is not real?
That there is no I in real life, none, zero. It can't be found.
No entity.
Nothing.

What comes up for you?
Feelings, thoughts, reactions, sensations.... list all and any that come for you.

And I'd also like you to read one of our guide's nice essay on direct experience.
maybe you could copy it and take it with you.
It's here:
http://this-is-cosmik.blogspot.ca/2012/ ... ce-de.html

Glad to have you start!

Bill

User avatar
Krm
Posts: 73
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2012 2:15 pm

Re: Bill - Ready to start

Postby Krm » Tue Dec 25, 2012 10:30 pm

Thanks Bill and a Merry Christmas to you too.

I have emailed myself the questions and will work on the answers and get back to you

Many thanks and looking forward to the journey

Kathy

User avatar
Krm
Posts: 73
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2012 2:15 pm

Re: Bill - Ready to start

Postby Krm » Wed Dec 26, 2012 8:00 pm

Hi Bill,

Am surrounded by relatives and noise right, but I have read the article and considering the questions in your post.

My initial feelings today were of a kind of disbelief and a kind of disconnectedness, when I considered the statements about no me. My recent glimpses seemed to have receded somewhat and I came across a certain amount of resistance to even looking, as if I was pushing myself a bit. I had thought travelling would be ideal to look, but maybe not.

I will have another look tomorrow, as I am back to my normal routine and will be able to spend more time on this.

I wanted to keep posting here every day, even though I have not been able to concentrate as much as I would have liked.

Thank you

Kathy

User avatar
Bill
Posts: 1353
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2012 5:08 am
Location: Pacific NW, USA

Re: Bill - Ready to start

Postby Bill » Thu Dec 27, 2012 8:52 am

Thanks for the update Kathy.. yes it might be a bit much activity for a start
When you're settled and ready you'll know it.

Remember there are no 'correct' answers to any of the questions Im going to give you.
The best answers are you telling what is true for you in your direct experience.

User avatar
Krm
Posts: 73
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2012 2:15 pm

Re: Bill - Ready to start

Postby Krm » Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:15 pm

Hello Bill

I am back home now and have spent time examining my experience.
And I'd also like you to read one of our guide's nice essay on direct experience.
maybe you could copy it and take it with you.
I will talk about what happened with this first. I read through and tried to really feel what the article talks about. There is a part about seeing and the feeling of a head and eyes and a thought of separation. For some reason that part about the eyes and head resonated a lot. I got a feeling for a moment of everything just being there, without a boundary, the sensations that I take to be my head and my eyes. Then a part came in and wanted to claim that, and to see more of the same, and I was back, separate again in an instant.
What is your reaction when I say that the you that you think you are is not real?
That there is no I in real life, none, zero. It can't be found.
No entity.
Nothing.
I sat with this and had many thoughts and feelings. There was a feeling of stress and fear that arose, alongside a feeling of not wanting to shake my world up too much. There was, and is, a strong feeling of puzzlement and feeling shaken up and not understanding. There is a mental attempt to understand the concept and I could feel my brow furrowing with the effort to undersand.

At the same time there was a lightness and a wanting the relief of it not all being me. There is the awareness of space and silence and a hearing of sounds and the feeling of the chair and other sensations.

There is a very subtle feeling that on one level, I already know this to be true, but the thought that tells me I am a separate person is louder. There is a part of me that wants to do something, to take some kind of action to help out and to try to reach the understanding. This part wants to control things. There are other thoughts, such as judgement for not being farther along after years of seeking, feelings of anger, if I end up pushing myself too much internally and sometimes feelings of skepticism about the whole process!

All in all, it feels as if there are many different parts/energies that come up. The stress/fear is quite prevalent, as is the part that wants to be in control. It seems that the thought about an I is there in the background and it feels more than just a thought, like a kind of habit, or energy as well as the idea. It feels that this is mainly in my head, behind my eyes.

The hope is also quite strong, as there is an idea of some relief from the idea of a separate person, who has always been responsible for life and somehow in control. There is also something that I am aware of and can almost feel physically and do not know how to explain, but it feels like a movement of life, or energy and some kind of unfolding. (just writing that bit - the judgemental thoughts came up again telling me that it is really corny!)

All in all it is a fascinating experience to look at these things

Many thanks

Kathy

User avatar
Bill
Posts: 1353
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2012 5:08 am
Location: Pacific NW, USA

Re: Bill - Ready to start

Postby Bill » Thu Dec 27, 2012 9:52 pm

Hi Kathy,

Thanks for the full response. I appreciate it.
I noticed a bit of fear running throughout the response.
I'm going to come back to the fear shortly...

First I'd like to ask you some of your expectations around this process.

What do you expect will happen?
What would you like to happen?
How will your life change? Or will it?

List all that you've been thinking and feeling around this....

And...

If you haven't watched the video on the first page about "LOOKING" please do
its about 5 min long and is excellent. Its even worth a few watches. This LOOKING
as we call it, is what this site is all about.
http://youtu.be/wyNwhK2Ur1c

User avatar
Krm
Posts: 73
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2012 2:15 pm

Re: Bill - Ready to start

Postby Krm » Fri Dec 28, 2012 4:16 pm

Hello Bill,

Thank you for your reply
What do you expect will happen?
What would you like to happen?
How will your life change? Or will it?
I used to expect that everything would change, that I would lose any character defects etc. Now, having had more experience, and seeing this happening to others, my expectations have changed. What I expect is more that there will be an allowing if life and of things being as they are, and that identification with thoughts and feelings will drop away, maybe gradually (this is already happening to a certain extent).

What I would like to happen, is for life to be simpler and not to feel the burden of personal responsibility so much. I would like to feel free in the sense that I am ok with life whatever happens. I would like to feel more at home after years of seeking for that feeling. I would also like to be able to love more unconditionally in general, without the need to protect a me so much.

My life has already changed lots, but also, in a strange way, not much at all. Recovery has totally changed a lot of things, but also my life is quite ordinary nowadays, which I really like. I think that seeing the truth may help me to appreciate the ordinary more, but also allow life to flow more, whatever happens.

Of course, if I am really honest, there is a little part of me that hopes I will be somehow different to what I have outlined above and that I will have a full-on awakening, such as does seem to happen to some and then feel mainly love and bliss from then on. Oh and that also applies to the question about what I would like to happen!

I have just watched the video you mentioned and will do that again.

Thank you for the help

Kathy

User avatar
Bill
Posts: 1353
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2012 5:08 am
Location: Pacific NW, USA

Re: Bill - Ready to start

Postby Bill » Fri Dec 28, 2012 9:59 pm

Thanks Kathy,

Those seem pretty normal expectations, let's go ahead and put all those to the side for now.

Liberation is not a thought, a feeling or a state. Its really so ordinary that we have almost totally missed it.
I can't convince you of it, in fact the only way I can help is to point you in the right direction to look so you can see it for yourself. You have to do the seeing.
It is through direct experience that it is seen. Its like we want you to look with fresh eyes at the truth of common everyday experience. Like a child sees... without any bias. Pure perception you could call it.
Its not hidden. Its been here all along. Its just a shift in perspective.
Do not expect fireworks. they may or may not happen. Each person is different.
All of the emotions we have had in the past are still here.. it just seems there is much less stickiness to them.

There's no I in reality. It can't be found. Only the thought or illusion of an I.
We're going to keep moving toward you SEEING that.

How we think and thoughts are huge in this process.
No matter what we do, we can't get away from thinking.

Since thoughts are so prevalent, lets look at them.
Can you look very carefully and tell me where thoughts arise, for you?
Can you see a point of origin, in reality?

Looking at the thoughts, do they all start out with an I attached, or does the I attach to the thought somewhere?
Do most all of them seem to be about you?

Use direct experience to answer these questions.

User avatar
Krm
Posts: 73
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2012 2:15 pm

Re: Bill - Ready to start

Postby Krm » Sat Dec 29, 2012 8:51 pm

Thank you Bill

I have tried to put my expectations to the side.

I am trying to have as open and unknowing mind as possible, although the trying itself can stop this. I have been sitting with your questions today and looking at my direct experience. Lots of thoughts come and sometimes there is too much identification with them to see much clearly, but at other times, something seems to thin and there is more space. What seems to help is to have a welcoming attitude, even to the judgemental thoughts about how I am doing, that seems to allow them to be less identified with and more part of the flow.
Can you look very carefully and tell me where thoughts arise, for you?
Can you see a point of origin, in reality?
I have been looking and cannot really find a point, or a place of origin. This changes though and sometimes they will seem to be somehow attached to the space behind my eyes, or around my head, at least there is a furrowing of the brow and a sense of the connection of thoughts there. I cannot see a single point, just a habit and an idea.

Sometimes the thoughts seem attached to energetic and emotional states, such as enthusiasm, or wanting something, or they seem to speed up when there is some kind of physical activity going on. In other words they seem to attach to activity and the body somehow. They just seem to come up though, whatever is happening.
Looking at the thoughts, do they all start out with an I attached, or does the I attach to the thought somewhere?
I think you are asking about whether there is an I that thinks, or is identified with the thought, but I was unclear on this. Some thoughts seem to just come up on their own, maybe an assessment or categorization of something. I am not sure if I have understood the question well
Do most all of them seem to be about you?
A lot of them seem to be about me. I have come to the embarrassing realisation that my thoughts are often about what others might think of me, how well I am doing in a particular situation or some other self -centred subject! There are also lots of thoughts that judge situations and people and assess things, plus the thoughts of planning etc. There are often thoughts/feelings that something might go wrong, or is wrong. This can be a very subtle thought, just a feeling even. Often there is a subtle self judgement, something I have taken to be the reality for years and which I have only recently started to see is a thought or attitude.

This is a very strange and fascinating process

Thank you for your time and input

Kathy

User avatar
Bill
Posts: 1353
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2012 5:08 am
Location: Pacific NW, USA

Re: Bill - Ready to start

Postby Bill » Sun Dec 30, 2012 7:13 am

Excellent looking Kathy.

I like your well written, honest answers.
Being the only way we have to gauge where you are is in the words you write, I really appreciate it.

So to sum up what you wrote, thoughts just come up, and you can't really tell where they come from.
They just arise. Sometimes there are more thoughts than at other times, especially if you are excited
or emotionally involved.
Most of the thoughts are about you or something related to you. And thoughts about judging yourself
and others. All pretty normal, I can relate well.

Can you control your thoughts? Do you know what the next thought will be?

When you look at say the computer in front of you, is it your computer, or just a computer?
How about your clothes and other personal items, are they yours, or are they just objects?
And then there's your family members.....yours or just other people?

How do we possess something.... what is the process that we go through to possess something?
Can we do this....possess something, without a thought?

Bill

User avatar
Krm
Posts: 73
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2012 2:15 pm

Re: Bill - Ready to start

Postby Krm » Sun Dec 30, 2012 12:06 pm

Hello Bill,

Thank you for your reply and encouragement. Your summing up represents the situation well.

If I may, I would like to answer in two parts, as I would like to spend more time on the question about possession and write more later today.
Can you control your thoughts? Do you know what the next thought will be?
This is a mixed response, because there is a definite feeling that I can control my thought to some extent. "I" choose to think about something and it seems I can do that. At other times though, it is clear that I cannot control what thoughts arise, or stop thinking. I will look further into the part about knowing what the next thought will be during the day. It is 11am here now.

There is a strong identification with thoughts and a definite feeling that thoughts are reality, although over the last couple of years this feeling has become a bit looser.

There does seem to be a certain amount of confusion over control of thoughts, I know I cannot, but sometimes it seems I can.

Your help is much appreciated

Kathy

User avatar
Bill
Posts: 1353
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2012 5:08 am
Location: Pacific NW, USA

Re: Bill - Ready to start

Postby Bill » Sun Dec 30, 2012 7:24 pm

Kathy - It's fine to post in two parts or however you feel is best.

User avatar
Krm
Posts: 73
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2012 2:15 pm

Re: Bill - Ready to start

Postby Krm » Sun Dec 30, 2012 10:35 pm

Hi Bill

I just accidentally navigated away from the page and lost all of my post so far! Here goes again - this time in an offine editor.

I have been feeling grief about my friend today, but would still like to do this. It seems possible to allow the grief to be present in a gentle way and still look at this.
When you look at say the computer in front of you, is it your computer, or just a computer?

How about your clothes and other personal items, are they yours, or are they just objects?
And then there's your family members.....yours or just other people?
When I look at this I know that the theory is that they are just objects, but there seems to be a strong emotional and belief system in place that says that they are mine. There seems to be an instinct to protect certain objects because they are "mine". I am not sure how much of this is due to a thought, and how much to instinct. I see that certain animals instinctually protect their homes etc, and I feel the same, but overlaid on that there is a belief that it is mine. I will look at this process in more depth below.

When I look at my kindle, my computer etc, there is a move towards holding on to it and also the belief that it is mine. There is some confusion and bewilderment looking at this concept, because I have never questioned this before and there has always been a strong acceptance that the reality is that a "me" owns things. There are also thoughts that come up saying that I will never be able to do this, to see reality, or find liberation. Seeing this is just a thought helps to allow some space around it. There is also a thought saying I need to find an answer, but maybe this is just my mind doing its job and trying to work things out.
How do we possess something.... what is the process that we go through to possess something?
We possess something by having it there physically and thinking it is ours.

On a practical level I would buy something with money, or similarly acquire something. There seems to be a thought or desire to own something. I cannot see where the original thought comes from, but usually it is associated with seeing something, or hearing about something then feeling a want or need to get it. Then there is the physical process of obtaining it, then growing familiarity with it and a sense of ownership and a belief that it is possessed by me. Thinking of it, there seems to be the possibility that all of this just happens without a distinct thing called possession, but this has never been questioned before, and my experience is that I feel I own things.

Once something is owned, there is a need to protect and to keep it. There are also elements before owning something, when it feels as if owning the object will somehow make life, everything ok, but these do not last long after getting it. With family or people I either grow up thinking they are mine, or come to think this from close association and a feeling of possession.
Can we do this....possess something, without a thought?
There seems to be a kind of visceral feeling of possession for some things, but I am not sure how much that depends on the long-standing habit of thinking I own something, or how much it is something in its own right, that is before thought.

There is also a strong belief/thought that there is an I that owns things.

Without the thought that I possess something, maybe it would just be there, part of life and part of everything around me, just there as part of what exists, which might include the feeling of a me, the body etc, of typing right now.

This last opens up a strange possibility and a glimpse of what could be true, but there is a strangeness and confusion here too. There is a strong fascination and a feeling of being drawn towards this, but also a shying away.

Writing this, there is a seeing of something, then immediately thoughts come in about how I can get more of this, pin it down, see more etc.

Thank you

Kathy

User avatar
Bill
Posts: 1353
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2012 5:08 am
Location: Pacific NW, USA

Re: Bill - Ready to start

Postby Bill » Mon Dec 31, 2012 9:43 am

Kathy - was tied up most of Sunday evening...will be back to you in the morning here.. Pacific Time.


Return to “ARCHIVES”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests